Indian companies have often been slapped with large fines for violations of US law.

[raktaka]

Why will they change laws for that effect? Your lack of information on the agreements is what's making you have this view.

why not ? ... din't you just say that they wanted their companies to be more competitive in Indian market ? Most Logical step would be to modify US law rather than ask India to follow US laws

When did their problem become ours ? Are our problems theirs ?

No, you don't. And I am sure you didn't even bother checking up the easily available open source agreement that they have with the Philippines.

I don't think the extend of my knowledge is the issue here, is it ?

Lol. They already have access to whatever they sell us. That's why they are selling it to us, because they control the tech. The Russians and French have access to whatever they sell to us also.

And we have already signed EUM with the Americans. That's more intrusive than all the other agreements.

The French and the Russian do not have mandatory "Inspection" of their tech EVERY YEAR as part of the deal or their Law.

The EUM India has signed with the US is NOT a BLANKET Agreement. It is VERY SPECIFIC to the equipment brought and it can be conducted ONLY after prior notification and sanction by India at an agreed date, time and place.

So you are Wrong when you claim that it is MORE intrusive than other agreements. I hope that was not deliberate.

 

[randomradio]

why not ? ... din't you just say that they wanted their companies to be more competitive in Indian market ? Most Logical step would be to modify US law rather than ask India to follow US laws

When did their problem become ours ? Are our problems theirs ?

I don't think the extend of my knowledge is the issue here, is it ?

Oh, but it is. You come up with conspiracy theories due to lack of knowledge in these matters.

In each of the Russian contracts, there are clauses that do exactly the same as CISMOA. They prevent the use or modification of Russian technology in other Indian programs or transfer to third party. What CISMOA does is make a single point of contact for all contracts. So every time a deal is signed with US, we don't have to negotiate this over and over again. And CISMOA mainly deals with radio communications.

We have the same type of restrictions with Russia also. Like not using the Bars radar in foreign exercises. I'm sure similar things will apply with France also.

BECA allows the use of US intelligence sources.

LSA is like having an account with your local grocer. You can just walk in buy what you want and leave, paying once a month to cover your expenses. It works both ways. And is actually more beneficial to India because we can then operate in the Pacific Ocean without worrying about supplies. We can resupply at any of the dozens of US bases in the region. US doesn't have that much advantage because they already have multiple bases they can access in the IOR. They have access to Singapore and UAE, apart from their own Diego Garcia. India simply adds to their list of supply points.

None of these are intrusive in anyway. And none of these have anything to do with technologies India already possesses. It does not affect Rafale, MKI or FGFA program. It won't affect AMCA. It won't affect AFNET or IACCS. It won't affect anything non-American in our inventory.

The EUM India has signed with the US is NOT a BLANKET Agreement. It is VERY SPECIFIC to the equipment brought and it can be conducted ONLY after prior notification and sanction by India at an agreed date, time and place.

That is the same EUM they have signed with every single country in the world. They don't have country specific laws for these agreements. CISMOA applies only to specific tech bought from the US also.

 

[raktaka]

Oh, but it is. You come up with conspiracy theories due to lack of knowledge in these matters.

In each of the Russian contracts, there are clauses that do exactly the same as CISMOA. They prevent the use or modification of Russian technology in other Indian programs or transfer to third party. What CISMOA does is make a single point of contact for all contracts. So every time a deal is signed with US, we don't have to negotiate this over and over again. And CISMOA mainly deals with radio communications.

We have the same type of restrictions with Russia also. Like not using the Bars radar in foreign exercises. I'm sure similar things will apply with France also.

You have tried to avoid my point. Of course we have agreements with Russia and France to prevent modification to their tech. and steal them. But they DO NOT have the right to walk in and inspect our goods ONCE WE HAVE PURCHASED IT.

US laws insists that they inspect ALL US goods even after we have purchased them and operate them. Inspect them every year, till the end of its service life. It allows US to control its use and lets US dictate how and when we can use it, even within the borders of India. Its like leasing the goods, not buying it. That after paying Full price and a premium on them. EUMA also dictates that India cannot maintain or replace parts for any of the US equipments.

This is partial surrendering our of sovereignty. How is this any different from the agreements we signed with the East India company ? Its a deal with the Devil.

India should never have signed the EUMA but that is water under the bridge. But no more. As long as we can use it to access some newer tech it had some use, but we do not even have that. P-8I and C17 do not give us any capability to improve our technical base. Even the Offset for that has been a scam.

BECA allows the use of US intelligence sources.

BECA will also allow the US to get details of our ocean in and around our Indian peninsula then compromising our security permanently in the future.

It will allow the US ships to take all kinds of measurements and readings on our seas and oceans to ensure their submarines can hide better.

LSA is like having an account with your local grocer. You can just walk in buy what you want and leave, paying once a month to cover your expenses. It works both ways. And is actually more beneficial to India because we can then operate in the Pacific Ocean without worrying about supplies. We can resupply at any of the dozens of US bases in the region. US doesn't have that much advantage because they already have multiple bases they can access in the IOR. They have access to Singapore and UAE, apart from their own Diego Garcia. India simply adds to their list of supply points.

LSA is an exchange of services and logistics. If it gets signed, the Indian and American militaries will provide logistic support, berthing and refueling facilities to each other's warships and aircraft on a barter or equal-value exchange basis. But given that the Indian military, including the navy, has no deployments or operations outside the region, the MSLA, in effect, would be a one-sided arrangement.

If India requires Japan and Korea and Vietnam will provide logistics support. India can make agreements with them if and when the need arise. There is no need today.

CISMOA covers systems, procedures, and techniques used to collect and disseminate information. We will be required to provide details of systems that provide the common operational/ tactical picture. It includes information assurance products and services, communications standards that support the secure exchange of information by C4ISR systems. Systems exchange digital footprints, voice, and video data to appropriate levels of command.

It is pretty much handing over our C4ISR to the US. Again its the new East India Company agreement. How can you not see that ?

None of these are intrusive in anyway. And none of these have anything to do with technologies India already possesses. It does not affect Rafale, MKI or FGFA program. It won't affect AMCA. It won't affect AFNET or IACCS. It won't affect anything non-American in our inventory.

This is amazing. EVERYTHING about them is intrusive .... yet you remain Blind to it. I am beginning to see how in the olden days the East India Company managed to convince foolish kings to accept their "help" and helped them set up trading posts, then base, then army and then political agents. Apparently they too saw nothing intrusive about them. All they saw as the goodies and the immediate benefit.

That is the same EUM they have signed with every single country in the world. They don't have country specific laws for these agreements. CISMOA applies only to specific tech bought from the US also.

Nope. US wanted us to grant multiple entry visa to the inspectors, India refused. They need to apply for a new visa every time they need to come for an inspection. Similarly India insisted on a prior appointment before an inspection and it can be done only at a place of India's choosing. Other nations do not have that. US can conduct the inspection whenever they want and at their location of use.


Here is a brief of the strategy the East India Company adopted.

1. First step, they set up their trade base in India. We allowed them. China refused them to do so.
2. Second step, they insisted that they be allowed to protect their installations. We allowed them. China refused them to do so.
3. Third step, they provided goodies to the Indian kings to fight their "enemies" and charged good money for them.
4. Fourth step, they asked for a base to "help" the kings.
5. Fifth step, they brought in troops and HIRED LOCALS to guard thier base and fight for them.
6. Sixth step, they told the kings that they will fight their battle for them
7. Seventh step, world domination.

This is how the US operates,
1. first step we sign trade agreements with the US in exchange for US not treating us Nuclear dalits, but nuclear lower caste.
2. Second step the US insist they be allowed to inspect their installations. We agree
3. Third step the US provide us with goodies to help fight our "enemies". We are excited.
4. Fourth step they have asked for base, and Geniuses like you tell me we should do that
5. Fifth step they will bring in their guys and HIRE Indians to work for them.
6. ...............

That is how History repeats itself. The more things change the more they remain the same. If you still don't get it, you never will.

 

[Levina]

And here people want India to buy F16s and 18s and manufacture them in India..
This is one of the many true faces of real USA India strategic relationship..

US has always been a frenemy.
Remember how US had first cleared theToT for manufacturing the Javelin missile (to be manufactured in India) and later curbs were placed by Washington on the number of missiles that could be manufactured?? Thus a lot of time was wasted in the whole process delaying the procurement of the much needed anti-tank missiles for the Indian army.

Countless more faces come out when we talk about NGO funding for working against government projects..

@Levina @Abingdonboy @anant_s

Seems a very good read..

The links posted by @Abingdonboy were an eye opener. I didnt know Cliton's were so desperate to malign Modi.


As far as our nuclear deal is concerned, India has been testing the patience of American companies..or so i heard, else the deal would not have been proceeding so slowly, whilst the ones with Canada and France are put on a fast track.

 

[randomradio]

You have tried to avoid my point. Of course we have agreements with Russia and France to prevent modification to their tech. and steal them. But they DO NOT have the right to walk in and inspect our goods ONCE WE HAVE PURCHASED IT.

US laws insists that they inspect ALL US goods even after we have purchased them and operate them. Inspect them every year, till the end of its service life. It allows US to control its use and lets US dictate how and when we can use it, even within the borders of India. Its like leasing the goods, not buying it. That after paying Full price and a premium on them. EUMA also dictates that India cannot maintain or replace parts for any of the US equipments.

This is partial surrendering our of sovereignty. How is this any different from the agreements we signed with the East India company ? Its a deal with the Devil.

India should never have signed the EUMA but that is water under the bridge. But no more. As long as we can use it to access some newer tech it had some use, but we do not even have that. P-8I and C17 do not give us any capability to improve our technical base. Even the Offset for that has been a scam.

That's what I'm saying. If we have signed EUM with them, then the other agreements are nothing.

BECA will also allow the US to get details of our ocean in and around our Indian peninsula then compromising our security permanently in the future.

It will allow the US ships to take all kinds of measurements and readings on our seas and oceans to ensure their submarines can hide better.

Oh and you think they can't do that without BECA? This is the problem. People with no clue assume things about aspects they have no knowledge of.

US ships visit Indian ports and other facilities quite regularly. It's not reported in the media. Signing BECA does nothing.

Indian Navy in Shanghai.
Indian navy ships arrive in Shanghai for 3-day visit CCTV News - CNTV English

LSA is an exchange of services and logistics. If it gets signed, the Indian and American militaries will provide logistic support, berthing and refueling facilities to each other's warships and aircraft on a barter or equal-value exchange basis. But given that the Indian military, including the navy, has no deployments or operations outside the region, the MSLA, in effect, would be a one-sided arrangement.

If India requires Japan and Korea and Vietnam will provide logistics support. India can make agreements with them if and when the need arise. There is no need today.

We don't need Japan, Korea and Vietnam for that, we need Guam and Hawaii. We can't resupply in locations that are entirely within striking distance from the Chinese mainland. During a war with China, the Chinese won't mind bombing Indian ships located in Japan or Korea. But they will think twice about attacking us in US controlled bases.

CISMOA covers systems, procedures, and techniques used to collect and disseminate information. We will be required to provide details of systems that provide the common operational/ tactical picture. It includes information assurance products and services, communications standards that support the secure exchange of information by C4ISR systems. Systems exchange digital footprints, voice, and video data to appropriate levels of command.

It is pretty much handing over our C4ISR to the US. Again its the new East India Company agreement. How can you not see that ?

We have such agreements with France and Russia already. You are the one confusing it to handing over our C4ISR to the US. We don't have to do anything of the sort. We don't have to provide anything to the US. The problem is you have confused all the all-reaching aspects of the agreements as though India will put them all in practice.

We won't give them anything about AFNET, nothing about IACCS. We have our own agreements with Russia for FGFA. It's independent for Rafale also. AMCA and LCA will use Indian systems, so there is no question of sharing that with the US. You are totally confused.

The US provides modules for communication which we can then combine to our own network without their interference. The agreements basically allow us control over their technology, not the other way round.

Ultimately, the plan is to create a universal integration system that will integrate all our local and foreign systems through standardization, we are working on that with the Israelis. It's like the USB. The US can make necessary changes to their equipment and feed it into this system, which will then give us a common picture without interfering with systems the US is not supposed to have control over, like the FGFA.

DRDO will remain the sole integrator of our communications tech. We don't have to give the US anything more special than what we already give to Russia and France.

As a matter of fact, while we will have access to US comm systems, the US won't have access to Indian comm systems, let alone Russian or French systems. And our own hardware will undergo constant upgrades, so the US will have to constantly upgrade their systems on US tech in India.

The BS that you have decided to believe is that the minute we sign CISMOA, we will hand over our entire military to the US. This is the type of ignorance that forces the government to take it slow with such agreements with the US.

Similarly India insisted on a prior appointment before an inspection and it can be done only at a place of India's choosing. Other nations do not have that. US can conduct the inspection whenever they want and at their location of use.

No. Other nations have the same option. All nations are allowed to choose the time and location.

Here is a brief of the strategy the East India Company adopted.

The points you listed are obsolete. Today there's something called lobbying. The foundation agreements don't do anything to add to the lobbying.

And you have no clue about China. The British were in China also. The East India Company was powerful in Canton and the British controlled Hong Kong. The First Opium War was also won by the British. Unlike India, China was too far and was a logistical challenge to reach. And the infighting in China was much lesser because the whole of China was under the Qing Dynasty which was in power since 1644 to the First World War. The Qing controlled all of China, Mongolia and Taiwan. It is because of the Qing that the Chinese claim historical rights over many parts of Asia that don't belong to them today. If Ashoka or Aurengzeb were in control during the same period, the British could have done nothing in India either. The Chinese just got lucky.

This was the Qing Dynasty's territorial map of their kingdom in 1765.

But kudos, way to go off topic in another area where you have no knowledge.

 

[raktaka]

That's what I'm saying. If we have signed EUM with them, then the other agreements are nothing.

One mistake does not mean we continue to make others.

Oh and you think they can't do that without BECA? This is the problem. People with no clue assume things about aspects they have no knowledge of.

US ships visit Indian ports and other facilities quite regularly. It's not reported in the media. Signing BECA does nothing.

Indian Navy in Shanghai.
Indian navy ships arrive in Shanghai for 3-day visit CCTV News - CNTV English

We don't need Japan, Korea and Vietnam for that, we need Guam and Hawaii. We can't resupply in locations that are entirely within striking distance from the Chinese mainland. During a war with China, the Chinese won't mind bombing Indian ships located in Japan or Korea. But they will think twice about attacking us in US controlled bases.

You make it sound that BECA is completely useless since everybody can visit everybody anyway. Do you know how absurd that sounds ? Then why have the BECA at all ?

The only Valid Point you make is the need to access Hawaii IF there is a war with China. Only When there is a war with China US will want us to win to retain the power balance and will give us access to hawaii anyway. We can sign the agreements THEN. Not Before.

We have such agreements with France and Russia already. You are the one confusing it to handing over our C4ISR to the US. We don't have to do anything of the sort. We don't have to provide anything to the US. The problem is you have confused all the all-reaching aspects of the agreements as though India will put them all in practice.

We won't give them anything about AFNET, nothing about IACCS. We have our own agreements with Russia for FGFA. It's independent for Rafale also. AMCA and LCA will use Indian systems, so there is no question of sharing that with the US. You are totally confused.

The US provides modules for communication which we can then combine to our own network without their interference. The agreements basically allow us control over their technology, not the other way round.

Ultimately, the plan is to create a universal integration system that will integrate all our local and foreign systems through standardization, we are working on that with the Israelis. It's like the USB. The US can make necessary changes to their equipment and feed it into this system, which will then give us a common picture without interfering with systems the US is not supposed to have control over, like the FGFA.

DRDO will remain the sole integrator of our communications tech. We don't have to give the US anything more special than what we already give to Russia and France.

As a matter of fact, while we will have access to US comm systems, the US won't have access to Indian comm systems, let alone Russian or French systems. And our own hardware will undergo constant upgrades, so the US will have to constantly upgrade their systems on US tech in India.

The BS that you have decided to believe is that the minute we sign CISMOA, we will hand over our entire military to the US. This is the type of ignorance that forces the government to take it slow with such agreements with the US.

Ya, the GoI. is ignorant which is why we have not yet signed this agreements. You OTOH know it all. Very convincing argument.

US wants to sell their SDR to India and make that our standard equipment across all the forces. I know this because I work in a related space. Our force are eager to dump caution to the winds and is keen to use US SDR. Its only lack of CISMOA that is preventing our complete takeover of C4ISR by US equipments. Once that happens it is good bye DRDO and good bye Autonomy.

Our defence forces takes a Narrow view of things and is eager for US equipments because they are undoubtedly superior and will save their lives. That is all they care about. GoI however needs to see the Bigger picture. The complete destruction of our ecosystem and a massive setback to our indigenous development and natural evolution and Organic growth of our Defence Industries.

These agreements will ensure US monopoly and will enslave us to them forever.

No. Other nations have the same option. All nations are allowed to choose the time and location.

No. US has right to conduct surprise inspection in other nations. Pakistan for e.g.

The points you listed are obsolete. Today there's something called lobbying. The foundation agreements don't do anything to add to the lobbying.

And you have no clue about China. The British were in China also. The East India Company was powerful in Canton and the British controlled Hong Kong. The First Opium War was also won by the British. Unlike India, China was too far and was a logistical challenge to reach. And the infighting in China was much lesser because the whole of China was under the Qing Dynasty which was in power since 1644 to the First World War. The Qing controlled all of China, Mongolia and Taiwan. It is because of the Qing that the Chinese claim historical rights over many parts of Asia that don't belong to them today. If Ashoka or Aurengzeb were in control during the same period, the British could have done nothing in India either. The Chinese just got lucky.

This was the Qing Dynasty's territorial map of their kingdom in 1765.

But kudos, way to go off topic in another area where you have no knowledge.

History of china is off topic, but history of India is NOT.

The British came in to set up trading posts during Mughal time, the Mughals allowed it, the Quing did not. The Mughals allowed the Brits to set up fortified bases. Quing did not.

IT was not dumb luck as you like to think. It was a smart move by the Quing that ensured Chin'as safety and future.

Do you even know why the first Opium war took place ? India back then used the gold standard, China OTOH used the Silver standard.

All trade with China had to be paid in Silver which the Brits did not have. So they used India as a base to grow Opium and sell them to China, take their silver and then trade other goods back with them with that silver. Indians did not even protest the growth of Opium in India that ruined the Indian economy.

What the US is offering is opium for the Armed forces. "Hi Tech".

Its for the GoI to do what is required and I hope it does and history does not repeat itself.

 

[randomradio]

You make it sound that BECA is completely useless since everybody can visit everybody anyway. Do you know how absurd that sounds ? Then why have the BECA at all ?

BECA is meant to give us access to electronic intelligence from US sources. BECA allows us to get intelligence from US Awecs, J-Stars, UAVs, satellites etc. They have more than we do and are more widespread, so the advantage is ours.

Similarly we can give them intelligence about Chinese and Pakistani positions. The advantage here is we can get access to their intelligence on China and Pak.

For the US, getting intelligence from inside our territory is extremely easy. They have too many subs and we have very few airborne assets to detect them.

Ya, the GoI. is ignorant which is why we have not yet signed this agreements. You OTOH know it all. Very convincing argument.

GoI is not ignorant. The people are ignorant. So GoI cannot sell the benefits to the people. You claim to work in the defence industry and yet are ignorant about it, so what makes you think the layman will be convinced? People spread stupid stories just because it is convenient to them.

Look at the nuclear deal, it was completely in our favour. Even top nuclear scientists were saying the deal would shut down our military program. In fact, our military program has become much stronger than before. Our military and civilian reactors are running at full capacity, we have multiple sources of uranium now. We are slowly getting very advanced nuclear tech from other countries also. Our energy generation goals have expanded.

US wants to sell their SDR to India and make that our standard equipment across all the forces. I know this because I work in a related space. Our force are eager to dump caution to the winds and is keen to use US SDR. Its only lack of CISMOA that is preventing our complete takeover of C4ISR by US equipments. Once that happens it is good bye DRDO and good bye Autonomy.

What a stupid opinion. So you are afraid of competition?

The SDR doesn't compromise anything. If we operate SDRs, we will control all emissions to and from it.

Our defence forces takes a Narrow view of things and is eager for US equipments because they are undoubtedly superior and will save their lives. That is all they care about.

Of course. They shouldn't care about their lives. They should only care about DRDO.

GoI however needs to see the Bigger picture. The complete destruction of our ecosystem and a massive setback to our indigenous development and natural evolution and Organic growth of our Defence Industries.

I agree, DRDO is at risk. But that would mean DRDO should quickly start JVs with American companies or with a combination of American companies and their private Indian JV partners to indigenize such systems.

These agreements will ensure US monopoly and will enslave us to them forever.

No such thing will happen. Private Indian companies who get into those JVs will take over this business from the original US companies and possibly even make superior systems. Look at SAMTEL, they have absorbed so much French and Israeli technologies. What DRDO took 50+ years to achieve, the private companies will do it in 10-15 years.

Organic growth, lol. I completely support R&D for tactical systems slowly moving away from DRDO to private companies. Eventually I prefer DRDO losing out on strategic systems also. I would prefer TATA doing the R&D for the AMCA replacement program instead of DRDO after 2030. Private companies will eventually absorb DRDO scientists into their fold as the years progress.

So only DRDO is at risk. Not the armed forces and not the country as a whole. By your own admission, US tech is better than what DRDO can develop. So we can take their assistance for many types of tactical systems as long as a private company is benefiting from it. And the US has to pamper us for at least the next 20 years, so we don't have major fear of them harming us.

No. US has right to conduct surprise inspection in other nations. Pakistan for e.g.

Pakistan is a major security risk for their technology. Their rules are very different, like constant US personnel presence with their Block 52 F-16s.

Other countries that don't face such security risks have the exact same agreements with the US as India does.

History of china is off topic, but history of India is NOT..................................

What a terrible knowledge of history.

China Trade and the East India Company
The Portuguese appeared in Chinese waters before the British in the early 16th century. Their skills in coercion, diplomacy, and in the suppression of piracy undoubtedly helped them to gain territorial rights at Macao in 1557.

In 1672, the English East India Company finally secured a trading post in Taiwan - ten years after the Dutch East India Company had been expelled from the island by the Chinese.

A Chinese official in Canton, Commissioner Lin, ordered the confiscation of some 20,000 chests of opium from English ships and refused to pay indemnity to the British traders. This incident outraged the British and triggered the first Opium War in 1840.

Your terrible knowledge in history is only made worse by your obvious ignorance of current events. The British were very much present in China. The only difference between China and India at the time was the lack of a major political power in India. Because of that the British could do nothing in China even though they won both the Opium Wars. All they could do was open up all of China for trade and take over Hong Kong as a colony.

 

[raktaka]

BECA is meant to give us access to electronic intelligence from US sources. BECA allows us to get intelligence from US Awecs, J-Stars, UAVs, satellites etc. They have more than we do and are more widespread, so the advantage is ours.

Similarly we can give them intelligence about Chinese and Pakistani positions. The advantage here is we can get access to their intelligence on China and Pak.

For the US, getting intelligence from inside our territory is extremely easy. They have too many subs and we have very few airborne assets to detect them.

GoI is not ignorant. The people are ignorant. So GoI cannot sell the benefits to the people. You claim to work in the defence industry and yet are ignorant about it, so what makes you think the layman will be convinced? People spread stupid stories just because it is convenient to them.

Look at the nuclear deal, it was completely in our favour. Even top nuclear scientists were saying the deal would shut down our military program. In fact, our military program has become much stronger than before. Our military and civilian reactors are running at full capacity, we have multiple sources of uranium now. We are slowly getting very advanced nuclear tech from other countries also. Our energy generation goals have expanded.

What a stupid opinion. So you are afraid of competition?

The SDR doesn't compromise anything. If we operate SDRs, we will control all emissions to and from it.

Of course. They shouldn't care about their lives. They should only care about DRDO.

I agree, DRDO is at risk. But that would mean DRDO should quickly start JVs with American companies or with a combination of American companies and their private Indian JV partners to indigenize such systems.

No such thing will happen. Private Indian companies who get into those JVs will take over this business from the original US companies and possibly even make superior systems. Look at SAMTEL, they have absorbed so much French and Israeli technologies. What DRDO took 50+ years to achieve, the private companies will do it in 10-15 years.

Organic growth, lol. I completely support R&D for tactical systems slowly moving away from DRDO to private companies. Eventually I prefer DRDO losing out on strategic systems also. I would prefer TATA doing the R&D for the AMCA replacement program instead of DRDO after 2030. Private companies will eventually absorb DRDO scientists into their fold as the years progress.

So only DRDO is at risk. Not the armed forces and not the country as a whole. By your own admission, US tech is better than what DRDO can develop. So we can take their assistance for many types of tactical systems as long as a private company is benefiting from it. And the US has to pamper us for at least the next 20 years, so we don't have major fear of them harming us.

Pakistan is a major security risk for their technology. Their rules are very different, like constant US personnel presence with their Block 52 F-16s.

Other countries that don't face such security risks have the exact same agreements with the US as India does.

I have said all that I need to on this topic. BECA can potentially open up US intelligence data to us, but it does not mean it will. David headley's will continue to exist and so will Rabindra Singh.

The same way you claim CISMOA will not expose our communication network to the US, but it will.

1. Sharing (intelligence or tech or logistics) is done on the basis of good faith and not due to agreements. As long as the faith do not exist, no agreement can replace them. No attempt should be made to do so. Puting agreements before faith is like putting the cart before the horse.

2. US has plenty of assets and so does China. That does not mean we give up our sovereignty for short term gains.

3. US has ensured we are still not part of the Legitimate Nuclear world. We are still a "rogue" nation which now has partial entry into the club. In exchange we had to curtail our Nuclear weapons program. Now you may be happy with this second class status and would be willing to trade your self respect and rights for a few goodies. I am not. Hopefully neither will the GoI.

4. Competition should exist on a level playing field. US has denied us tech for almost 50 years and has worked to keep us a global pariah. This has ensured that our eco-system did not reach the level of maturity the rest of the world has reached.

It is foolish, Naive and ignorant to open up our sensitive and strategic defence sector to competition without first helping it reach global standards. It will only ensure the destruction of our home industry and tech. Private Industries cannot close the Gap of 50-60 years even in a decade.

5. Finally the defence forces can think about their safety first, however the GoI has to look at a bigger picture. The have to consider the safety and future of India first. And if that means some defence force have to die due to lack of latest tech, so be it.

What a terrible knowledge of history.

China Trade and the East India Company
The Portuguese appeared in Chinese waters before the British in the early 16th century. Their skills in coercion, diplomacy, and in the suppression of piracy undoubtedly helped them to gain territorial rights at Macao in 1557.

In 1672, the English East India Company finally secured a trading post in Taiwan - ten years after the Dutch East India Company had been expelled from the island by the Chinese.

A Chinese official in Canton, Commissioner Lin, ordered the confiscation of some 20,000 chests of opium from English ships and refused to pay indemnity to the British traders. This incident outraged the British and triggered the first Opium War in 1840.

Your terrible knowledge in history is only made worse by your obvious ignorance of current events. The British were very much present in China. The only difference between China and India at the time was the lack of a major political power in India. Because of that the British could do nothing in China even though they won both the Opium Wars. All they could do was open up all of China for trade and take over Hong Kong as a colony.

LOL... what is your point here ? When did I say Brits did not have a trading post in China ? I said they did not have a MILITARY base in china that was set up "protect" their trading posts.

Their first base was in taiwan and then in canton, where they operated under trade restrictions for almost a 100 years.

Finally the Opium war was to protect Chinese economy. The drama that let to the first shot being fired is irrelevant.

I don't think I require your certificate for my knowledge of history.

 

[randomradio]

I have said all that I need to on this topic. BECA can potentially open up US intelligence data to us, but it does not mean it will. David headley's will continue to exist and so will Rabindra Singh.

The same way you claim CISMOA will not expose our communication network to the US, but it will.

1. Sharing (intelligence or tech or logistics) is done on the basis of good faith and not due to agreements. As long as the faith do not exist, no agreement can replace them. No attempt should be made to do so. Puting agreements before faith is like putting the cart before the horse.

2. US has plenty of assets and so does China. That does not mean we give up our sovereignty for short term gains.

Nobody is giving up sovereignty. You are just confused about the deal. If you are working in the defence industry, ask your managers to pull out records of the agreements from official US .mil websites instead of arguing non-issues on internet forums. You will have better access than laymen and journalists.

3. US has ensured we are still not part of the Legitimate Nuclear world. We are still a "rogue" nation which now has partial entry into the club. In exchange we had to curtail our Nuclear weapons program. Now you may be happy with this second class status and would be willing to trade your self respect and rights for a few goodies. I am not. Hopefully neither will the GoI.

Oh, really? Then what are we doing in Chitradurga?
India's secret project in Karnataka to build H-bomb: Report - Rediff.com India News

We are curtailing our military program by increasing fissile material production by many times and making MIRVed warheads. If that's curtailing, then I am all for it.

It is foolish, Naive and ignorant to open up our sensitive and strategic defence sector to competition without first helping it reach global standards. It will only ensure the destruction of our home industry and tech.

None of that is being opened up to the US. They are not part of FGFA, missile programs, Arihant, SSNs, etc. The US themselves cannot be part of our strategic programs because of their own export control laws.

They are part of our carrier program only because they have technology no one else have.

Private Industries cannot close the Gap of 50-60 years even in a decade.

The only difference between private companies and DRDO is infrastructure and manpower. DRDO has both, pvt sector has neither. But pvt sector has money. They can buy both. They can build infrastructure in 10-15 years and they can poach all the scientists from DRDO. Every one of them can be absorbed into the private sector. A PhD in DRDO probably gets paid about 1L/mth. The private sector can pay him 5L/mth. He will leave DRDO overnight.

LOL... what is your point here ? When did I say Brits did not have a trading post in China ? I said they did not have a MILITARY base in china that was set up "protect" their trading posts.

Their first base was in taiwan and then in canton, where they operated under trade restrictions for almost a 100 years.

Finally the Opium war was to protect Chinese economy. The drama that let to the first shot being fired is irrelevant.

I don't think I require your certificate for my knowledge of history.

The British had military presence in China. Considering you were wrong about all the points you made, yes, you need my certificate for further discussion.

 

[raktaka]

Nobody is giving up sovereignty. You are just confused about the deal. If you are working in the defence industry, ask your managers to pull out records of the agreements from official US .mil websites instead of arguing non-issues on internet forums. You will have better access than laymen and journalists.

Oh, really? Then what are we doing in Chitradurga?
India's secret project in Karnataka to build H-bomb: Report - Rediff.com India News

We are curtailing our military program by increasing fissile material production by many times and making MIRVed warheads. If that's curtailing, then I am all for it.

Challakere produces material for our Nuclear power submarines. We do not need US permission for producing high grade fissile material, what we need is to do more testing of our warheads. Especially for ThermoNuclear designs.

If not, we should have been provided data that would have helped us simulate tests and improve our warhead design and reliability. You do not seem to understand this simple fact.

None of that is being opened up to the US. They are not part of FGFA, missile programs, Arihant, SSNs, etc. The US themselves cannot be part of our strategic programs because of their own export control laws.

They are part of our carrier program only because they have technology no one else have.

Entire Defence industrial complex and ecosystem is strategic, not just the specific programs mentioned. THAT is what needs to be nurtured and protected when needed.

The only difference between private companies and DRDO is infrastructure and manpower. DRDO has both, pvt sector has neither. But pvt sector has money. They can buy both. They can build infrastructure in 10-15 years and they can poach all the scientists from DRDO. Every one of them can be absorbed into the private sector. A PhD in DRDO probably gets paid about 1L/mth. The private sector can pay him 5L/mth. He will leave DRDO overnight.

LOL..... that is a school boy idea of R&D

Why would pvt. sector put their hard earned money into R&D when there is no guarantee of any return ? Why would they hire guys ? you do not come across as someone who had a clue about how the real world works.

The British had military presence in China. Considering you were wrong about all the points you made, yes, you need my certificate for further discussion.

The british had an insignificant military presence in China till the opium wars.

 

[randomradio]

Challakere produces material for our Nuclear power submarines. We do not need US permission for producing high grade fissile material, what we need is to do more testing of our warheads. Especially for ThermoNuclear designs.

If not, we should have been provided data that would have helped us simulate tests and improve our warhead design and reliability. You do not seem to understand this simple fact.

Lol. India can't test nukes anyway. The repercussions are unnecessarily harsh and unnecessary. This has nothing to do with the nuclear deal.

When we think it is right, we will eventually one day test nukes again. Our current moratorium on testing has nothing to do with the nuclear deal.

Entire Defence industrial complex and ecosystem is strategic, not just the specific programs mentioned. THAT is what needs to be nurtured and protected when needed.

The US agreements won't harm any of that. You are just worried that DRDO will lose the game in smaller tactical programs that eventually the private sector will take over anyway.

Why would pvt. sector put their hard earned money into R&D when there is no guarantee of any return ? Why would they hire guys ? you do not come across as someone who had a clue about how the real world works.

Aren't they already doing it today... Go look it all up yourself. A lot of companies have begun spending their own money on defence R&D. And that includes smaller companies, not just TATA and Reliance.

In 5 years, you will see the effect yourself.

The british had an insignificant military presence in China till the opium wars.

How many troops do you think the British had in India in 1747? Dude, you have no clue about history. Stop posting about it.

 

[raktaka]

Lol. India can't test nukes anyway. The repercussions are unnecessarily harsh and unnecessary. This has nothing to do with the nuclear deal.

When we think it is right, we will eventually one day test nukes again. Our current moratorium on testing has nothing to do with the nuclear deal.

The US agreements won't harm any of that. You are just worried that DRDO will lose the game in smaller tactical programs that eventually the private sector will take over anyway.

Aren't they already doing it today... Go look it all up yourself. A lot of companies have begun spending their own money on defence R&D. And that includes smaller companies, not just TATA and Reliance.

In 5 years, you will see the effect yourself.

How many troops do you think the British had in India in 1747? Dude, you have no clue about history. Stop posting about it.

US has provide China with enough data to simulate nuclear tests. It was part of the deal to make them stop testing. Guess what India got. The middle finger.

I AM in the R&D space. In the private sector. I have build and delivered products and services to IAF, IN and IA. I know what I am talking about. You don't. My last post on this.

 

[randomradio]

US has provide China with enough data to simulate nuclear tests. It was part of the deal to make them stop testing. Guess what India got. The middle finger.

I AM in the R&D space. In the private sector. I have build and delivered products and services to IAF, IN and IA. I know what I am talking about. You don't. My last post on this.

US gave nothing of the sort to China. Your knowledge is very visible when you think the Americans gave their data to China for their bomb tests when that has no use in helping the Chinese develop their own bombs.

The Chinese started their first test in 1967 and had their last test in 1996. That's 30 years of testing. To date, the Chinese and Americans have not ratified the CTBT. The Russians, French and British have. You flunked colonial history, there goes your knowledge on recent history also. Are you sure you even know your own birthday?

Your nonsense on CISMOA and BECA are just that, nonsense. Working for some defence company means jack if you don't know how foreign policy works. It's people like you who hold India back. And I know very well you haven't even bothered to check the LSA agreement between the Philippines and the US. See ya.

 

[raktaka]

US gave nothing of the sort to China. Your knowledge is very visible when you think the Americans gave their data to China for their bomb tests when that has no use in helping the Chinese develop their own bombs.

The Chinese started their first test in 1967 and had their last test in 1996. That's 30 years of testing. To date, the Chinese and Americans have not ratified the CTBT. The Russians, French and British have. You flunked colonial history, there goes your knowledge on recent history also. Are you sure you even know your own birthday?

Your nonsense on CISMOA and BECA are just that, nonsense. Working for some defence company means jack if you don't know how foreign policy works. It's people like you who hold India back. And I know very well you haven't even bothered to check the LSA agreement between the Philippines and the US. See ya.

Can you please stop issuing me "certificates of excellence" That is just sad.

You speak from nativity and ignorance. FP is clearly not your strength. You know nothing about it except what you have been told. One of the incentives of the Geneva negotiations was the sharing of US tests and research data to France and Britain. US winked at supply of such data China. The nuclear power had an incestuous relationship. That is how the whole NPT and CTBT was signed by the nuclear powers. If you are foolish enough to think that china back then, was sophisticated enough to simulate nuclear tests on its own then its pointless to educate your further. Back then scientific advancement in china was at the same level as India.

Foreign policy and power play is not a zero sum game as you would like to believe. I strongly suggest you grow up and stop seeing the world/US with rose tinted glasses.

Clinton Administration Gave China Top Nuclear Secrets (Flashback)

.....A nuclear weapons scientist, who has sought anonymity "to keep my position and keep supporting my family," has informed NewsMax.com that the Clinton administration has, in fact, aggressively sought to provide China with some of the nation's most closely guarded nuclear weapons technology.

"It seems like every day there are more and more Chinese at Livermore," he stated. The scientist said the administration had facilitated the transfer of laser technology employed in the process of making nuclear weapons-grade plutonium.

"Early in the 1980's a process was developed at Lawrence Livermore for producing weapons-grade plutonium," the scientist explained, revealing for the first time details of a U.S. government project then considered the government's most important......

.........
These changes greatly expedited sales of U.S. technology, including supercomputers once prohibited for sale to communist countries and useful in developing nuclear weapons....

 

[randomradio]

Can you please stop issuing me "certificates of excellence" That is just sad.

You speak from nativity and ignorance. FP is clearly not your strength. You know nothing about it except what you have been told. One of the incentives of the Geneva negotiations was the sharing of US tests and research data to France and Britain. US winked at supply of such data China. The nuclear power had an incestuous relationship. That is how the whole NPT and CTBT was signed by the nuclear powers. If you are foolish enough to think that china back then, was sophisticated enough to simulate nuclear tests on its own then its pointless to educate your further. Back then scientific advancement in china was at the same level as India.

Foreign policy and power play is not a zero sum game as you would like to believe. I strongly suggest you grow up and stop seeing the world/US with rose tinted glasses.

Clinton Administration Gave China Top Nuclear Secrets (Flashback)

.....A nuclear weapons scientist, who has sought anonymity "to keep my position and keep supporting my family," has informed NewsMax.com that the Clinton administration has, in fact, aggressively sought to provide China with some of the nation's most closely guarded nuclear weapons technology.

"It seems like every day there are more and more Chinese at Livermore," he stated. The scientist said the administration had facilitated the transfer of laser technology employed in the process of making nuclear weapons-grade plutonium.

"Early in the 1980's a process was developed at Lawrence Livermore for producing weapons-grade plutonium," the scientist explained, revealing for the first time details of a U.S. government project then considered the government's most important......

.........
These changes greatly expedited sales of U.S. technology, including supercomputers once prohibited for sale to communist countries and useful in developing nuclear weapons....

NewsMax, of course. It's a source only you can bring up. 30 years of testing doesn't satisfy you, Newsmax does. Nice work.