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Indian Army used artillery & heavy mortars on LOC targeting Civilian Population

Kashmiris too are a party to the dispute. Read the UN Resolutions

No they are not. Legally. The dispute is between India and Pakistan. You just got lucky, however after Simla agreement, you lost your right to involve any third party including UN. International Commission of Jurist (ICJ) alludes to this fact.

Let us and Kashmiris settle it out, out of court.

And who gets to decide that what does (or doesn't) drift away from the mutually agreed principles?
The arbitrator (UN in this case) of course, not the parties.You yourself chose the arbitrator, but when it didn't act in accordance with your desires, it became biased!!
Do you not realize the glaring weakness in your argument?

Only if you are insinuating that they are beyond politics and you as a nation abide by UN all the times. Shall I remind of how Ayub Khan tore apart papers in UN assembly and walked out?

If you do not want to contest on merit of argument and go by "That's what UN said later", then we rejected what they recommended later for being evidently biased and they could not bind and enforce it on us. Nature of chapter VI of UN charter allow such negotiations and give you enough room to not abide by any recommendations. You did it with some recommendations, we did the same for others.

Simla left you nowhere to go anyways.
 
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Once india had 5-10 commandos killed by Freedom fighters it was only a matter of time they had to hide their shame:coffee:

Artillery across the LOC, that's new:cheesy:

Hit the napak idol worshippers back hard
Will mard e momin join the fight ?
Or like imran would cry
" India bad, hindutva , nazi, rss,genocide , kashmir, freedom , plijjj hlp uss"
 
No they are not. Legally. The dispute is between India and Pakistan. You just got lucky, however after Simla agreement, you lost your right to involve any third party including UN. International Commission of Jurist (ICJ) alludes to this fact.

Let us and Kashmiris settle it out, out of court.

Wrong again, the International Commission of Jurist (ICJ) has concluded that Simla agreement cannot deprive the Kashmiris of their right to self-determination and that the UN resolutions remain valid ... It even went on to declare the Kashmiri freedom struggle as 'legitimate' .. We will come to Simla later, here we are discussing Indian refusal to abide by UN Resolutions in 1950's and 60's




If you do not want to contest on merit of argument and go by "That's what UN said later", then we rejected what they recommended later for being evidently biased and they could not bind and enforce it on us. Nature of chapter VI of UN charter allow such negotiations and give you enough room to not abide by any recommendations. You did it with some recommendations, we did the same for others.

Yes, you are a rogue nation that refuses to implement UN resolutions in Kashmir on different pretexts. We have no problem with you claiming that UN was biased (or even that you had Vedic spaceships), but when you try to accuse Pakistan of halting the withdrawal process, do not expect to get away with your lies and propaganda on a Pakistani forum. Simple as that
 
Wrong again, the International Commission of Jurist (ICJ) has concluded that Simla agreement cannot deprive the Kashmiris of their right to self-determination and that the UN resolutions remain valid ... It even went on to declare the Kashmiri freedom struggle as 'legitimate' .. We will come to Simla later, here we are discussing Indian refusal to abide by UN Resolutions in 1950's and 60's

Wrong interpretation. They categorically said Simla agreement restrict use of third party even UN without both India and Pakistan agreeing to use its office and thus nullifying any UN resolution under chapter VI as a binding solution, which was made to peacefully resolve India Pakistan conflict. Any recommendation, by its implications stands null and void and left for both parties to use or discard them.

However ICJ did evaluate if Kashmiris acquired right of self determination (notwithstanding UN resolutions) by virtue of partition, and they did commented in its favour, but that would be a separate dispute between India and Kashmiri people had kashmiris raised this request which has nothing to do with Indo -Pak dispute in UN.

Plebiscite was a tool identified to peacefully solve Indo-Pak conflict, it was never established in isolation that Kashmiris acquired that right or seek that right ever in UN. Had Pakistan not did aggression, no question of self determination would have been raised.

Who represent people of Kashmir?

Yes, you are a rogue nation that refuses to implement UN resolutions in Kashmir on different pretexts. We have no problem with you claiming that UN was biased (or even that you had Vedic spaceships), but when you try to accuse Pakistan of halting the withdrawal process, do not expect to get away with your lies and propaganda on a Pakistani forum. Simple as that

You halted because you go back on your own words that you will withdraw in toto. In fact, the legacy of denying your involvement started from there and carried till Kargill. Your nation first completely denied its presence in Kashmir and later on argued to keep its military presence in Kashmir. That redefine word "rogue"

Here is for you from the horse mouth, UN document itself. Now you have audacity to pass snide remark on religion? I wont do that, so please have a good night sleep if its getting too much to handle for you.

On 15 January 1948 the Government of Pakistan emphatically denied that they were giving aid and assistance to the so-called invaders, or had committed any act of aggression against India.
 
Time to upend the game!! A couple of relevant Turkish stuffs, hopefully produced in Pak in large quantities, for considerations:

Serhat Counter Mortar Radar
https://www.aselsan.com.tr/en/capab...n-locating-radars/serhat-counter-mortar-radar
Important features:
  • L-Band transmission frequency
  • 6km operational mortar detection/tracking range
  • Electronically Scanned Active Antenna Array Structures
  • Simultaneous Mortar Fire Detection
  • Landscape Silhouette Tracking
  • Remote operation from Command & Control Center
upload_2020-4-11_14-40-57.png
upload_2020-4-11_14-42-1.png


ROKETSAN CIRIT 2.75″ Laser Guided Missile
Technical Specifications:
  • Diameter 2.75” (70 mm)
  • Length 1.9 m
  • Weight 15 kg (without Canister)
  • Range 1.5 km – 8 km
  • Warhead Types Multi Purpose Warhead
    High Explosive Warhead
  • Seeker Mid Course Guidance with Micro Electro Mechanical Systems - Inertial Measurement Unit
    Terminal Guidance with Semi-Active Laser
  • Propulsion Min. Smoke Composite Solid Propellant
  • Target Types Light Armored/Unarmored Vehicles, Infantry Laser Designation
  • Laser Compatible with STANAG 3733
ASELSAN İHTAR Anti-Drone System
https://www.aselsan.com.tr/en/capab...issile-defense-systems/ihtar-antidrone-system

Applications
• Protection of critical facilities • Prevention of illegal border leaks • Safety of highly populated events • Available in various configurations (fixed, deployable etc.)
General Specs
• Detecting and tracking multiple UAVs with high accuracy using portable radar • Low false alarm rate • Recognizing the threats from a distance using tv/thermal cameras • Automatic video tracking • Directional jamming capability for specific threats • Omni directional jamming capability for swarm attacks • Software programmable jamming frequencies • Centralized Command & Control capabilities with integrated GIS, alarm zones, filtering etc. • Requires minimum operator intervention • Built-in-Test (BIT) capabilities • Operating in all-weather conditions for 7/24 • Customizable with its open and modular architecture • Easy to include other means of sensors and effectors • Compatible with military standards


upload_2020-4-11_14-59-24.png

upload_2020-4-11_15-0-30.png
 
Wrong interpretation. They categorically said Simla agreement restrict use of third party even UN without both India and Pakistan agreeing to use its office and thus nullifying any UN resolution under chapter VI as a binding solution, which was made to peacefully resolve India Pakistan conflict. Any recommendation, by its implications stands null and void and left for both parties to use or discard them.

However ICJ did evaluate if Kashmiris acquired right of self determination (notwithstanding UN resolutions) by virtue of partition, and they did commented in its favour, but that would be a separate dispute between India and Kashmiri people had kashmiris raised this request which has nothing to do with Indo -Pak dispute in UN.

Plebiscite was a tool identified to peacefully solve Indo-Pak conflict, it was never established in isolation that Kashmiris acquired that right or seek that right ever in UN. Had Pakistan not did aggression, no question of self determination would have been raised.

Who represent people of Kashmir?

Don't try to change the topic now. As I said, we will discuss Simla later. But I will post just one quote from the 1995 ICJ report that will disprove all your 'wishful assumptions':

Both India and Pakistan should recognise and respond to the call for self-determination for the peoples of Jammu and Kashmir within its 1947 boundaries, inherent in the relevant United Nations resolutions. The United Nations should re-activate its role as a catalyst in this process. (p.98)



You halted because you go back on your own words that you will withdraw in toto. In fact, the legacy of denying your involvement started from there and carried till Kargill. Your nation first completely denied its presence in Kashmir and later on argued to keep its military presence in Kashmir. That redefine word "rogue"

Here is for you from the horse mouth, UN document itself. Now you have audacity to pass snide remark on religion? I wont do that, so please have a good night sleep if its getting too much to handle for you.

On 15 January 1948 the Government of Pakistan emphatically denied that they were giving aid and assistance to the so-called invaders, or had committed any act of aggression against India.

Stop acting like a 5 y.o now.

26 pages of discussion and You have not been able to post anything to backup your claim. You are just mindlessly parroting the Indian propaganda here. You refuse to accept the UN interpretation of its resolutions and the reports submitted to the UNSC by the UN official mediators but insist that your baseless assertions should be accepted as facts.. Not going to happen, mate
 
Don't try to change the topic now. As I said, we will discuss Simla later. But I will post just one quote from the 1995 ICJ report that will disprove all your 'wishful assumptions':

Both India and Pakistan should recognise and respond to the call for self-determination for the peoples of Jammu and Kashmir within its 1947 boundaries, inherent in the relevant United Nations resolutions. The United Nations should re-activate its role as a catalyst in this process. (p.98)





Stop acting like a 5 y.o now.

26 pages of discussion and You have not been able to post anything to backup your claim. You are just mindlessly parroting the Indian propaganda here. You refuse to accept the UN interpretation of its resolutions and the reports submitted to the UNSC by the UN official mediators but insist that your baseless assertions should be accepted as facts.. Not going to happen, mate

You can play around as much as you want but the fact is Pakistan has no loci standi on Kashmir once it lost 71 and signed Simla. Kashmiris has not earned any "right of self determination" if by bilateral negotiations, India and Pakistan do not mutually agreed upon plebiscite anymore. That was a tool to solve India-Pakistan dispute and never to give any right to any group.

The agreement requires the existing disputes between the countries to be settled bilaterally (and therefore, by implication, to the exclusion of reference to third parties such as the U N except with the consent of both India and Pakistan). ICJ Report

Let me call out your propaganda on such rights, the day India and Pakistan agree on a model, no Plebiscite would ever be conducted. Musharraf & Vajpayee tried the same in Agra, was plebiscite part of that plan?
If India Pakistan settle the dispute by any means and report back to UN, will UN not delist the case?
If you are honest, just answer me this question.
 
If India Pakistan settle the dispute by any means and report back to UN, will UN not delist the case?
If you are honest, just answer me this question.

The LEGAL process is that if India, Pakistan and the Kashmiris agree on any solution, they will have to go back to the UN Security Council with that "solution" to get another UNSC resolution to endorse that solution/procedure. Until then Kashmir will remain as an unresolved international dispute on the agenda of the UN Security Council, and the UN Resolutions on Kashmir will remain valid regardless of when they were adopted.


The agreement requires the existing disputes between the countries to be settled bilaterally (and therefore, by implication, to the exclusion of reference to third parties such as the U N except with the consent of both India and Pakistan). ICJ Report

^^ page no. please. The ICJ didn't say that
 
Time to upend the game!! A couple of relevant Turkish stuffs, hopefully produced in Pak in large quantities, for considerations:

Serhat Counter Mortar Radar
https://www.aselsan.com.tr/en/capab...n-locating-radars/serhat-counter-mortar-radar
Important features:
  • L-Band transmission frequency
  • 6km operational mortar detection/tracking range
  • Electronically Scanned Active Antenna Array Structures
  • Simultaneous Mortar Fire Detection
  • Landscape Silhouette Tracking
  • Remote operation from Command & Control Center
View attachment 622902View attachment 622903

ROKETSAN CIRIT 2.75″ Laser Guided Missile
Technical Specifications:
  • Diameter 2.75” (70 mm)
  • Length 1.9 m
  • Weight 15 kg (without Canister)
  • Range 1.5 km – 8 km
  • Warhead Types Multi Purpose Warhead
    High Explosive Warhead
  • Seeker Mid Course Guidance with Micro Electro Mechanical Systems - Inertial Measurement Unit
    Terminal Guidance with Semi-Active Laser
  • Propulsion Min. Smoke Composite Solid Propellant
  • Target Types Light Armored/Unarmored Vehicles, Infantry Laser Designation
  • Laser Compatible with STANAG 3733
ASELSAN İHTAR Anti-Drone System
https://www.aselsan.com.tr/en/capab...issile-defense-systems/ihtar-antidrone-system

Applications
• Protection of critical facilities • Prevention of illegal border leaks • Safety of highly populated events • Available in various configurations (fixed, deployable etc.)
General Specs
• Detecting and tracking multiple UAVs with high accuracy using portable radar • Low false alarm rate • Recognizing the threats from a distance using tv/thermal cameras • Automatic video tracking • Directional jamming capability for specific threats • Omni directional jamming capability for swarm attacks • Software programmable jamming frequencies • Centralized Command & Control capabilities with integrated GIS, alarm zones, filtering etc. • Requires minimum operator intervention • Built-in-Test (BIT) capabilities • Operating in all-weather conditions for 7/24 • Customizable with its open and modular architecture • Easy to include other means of sensors and effectors • Compatible with military standards


View attachment 622906
View attachment 622907
mmmmmmmmmmmm I am sure tools can accelerate the death of Indian locust attack
 
The LEGAL process is that if India, Pakistan and the Kashmiris agree on any solution, they will have to go back to the UN Security Council with that "solution" to get another UNSC resolution to endorse that solution/procedure. Until then Kashmir will remain as an unresolved international dispute on the agenda of the UN Security Council, and the UN Resolutions on Kashmir will remain valid regardless of when they were adopted.

There is no litigant as Kashmir in India-Pakistan dispute. Who represents Kashmir?

UN resolutions made recommendations to resolve Indo - Pak dispute, and plebiscite was merely a tool recommended. It never restrict India Pak to resolve by other means, Agra being an example.

Sorry you are being dishonest here.

^^ page no. please. The ICJ didn't say that

24

Man and wife had a child. Both go for a divorce and fight for child custody. Court left the decision on child. Parents reconciled and decided in favor of mother. Does that left the right with child, still?

@M. Sarmad Just to add, UN resolution gave Kashmir option either to chose India or Pakistan and nothing else, how come it become their right of self determination if independence is not on cards? Its just to settle India Pak dispute. No dispute, no plebiscite.
 
Sorry you are being dishonest here.

24

Talk about dishonesty?? You have selectively quoted what Simla Agreements says and are trying to pass it off as what ICJ has said?? :disagree:

The black part is what the Simla Agreement says/implies. The Red part is what ICJ has to say:

The agreement requires the existing disputes between the countries to be settled bilaterally (and therefore, by implication, to the exclusion of reference to third parties such as the U N except with the consent of both India and Pakistan). However, the people of Jammu and Kashmir were not parties to the Agreement and it would seem that the Agreement cannot, in their absence, override any rights which they (or any section of them) may have in
international law.
 
Some of the comments made need to be examined.

Well I had heard of FEBA but FEBA weapons is a new concept for me, however its never too late to learn new concepts. I generally agree with you that Pakistan had US weapons mostly and India had Russian weapons so we had a slight edge over indians, but only till 1965. Pakistan's strong defence in 1965 actually surprised India as they were expecting they will be able to celebrate their victory by nightfall in Lahore Gymkhana on 6th of Sep 1965.

This is a fabrication; there is nowhere any evidence that there was such a war aim, there was not even a casual, facetious remark made by any senior Indian officer to this effect. The closest I have got to it was a small column in the Amrita Bazar Patrika, but once that was quoted by a Pakistani newspaper, it became concrete fact.

1965 onwards India started making deliberate efforts to improve the efficiency of its warfighting apparatus both in equipment and doctrine. from 1965 to 1982 India had a significant edge in Air Force and Navy and almost a balance in Army. Indian Armour was considered better but on the other hand Pakistan's Artillery was considered superior in training as well equipment. As far as numbers were concerned Pakistan was always out gunned and out numbered on the ground, in the air and sea. Things changed when US reduced the sanctions during Zia regime to help Pakistan against USSR. Some equipment came in the shape of F16s, M109 SP Artillery and vehicles etc but it was not at all sufficient to change the balance of power in favour of Pakistan. USA made sure not to antagonize their friend India as it was an emerging market.

You need to consult your references, for this is an absurdity. The cold indifference shown by the USA (and the UK and NATO in general) towards India lasted till nearly the millennium, till Clinton. Nixon was positively hostile, Ford was embattled, Carter could not get his second term. Reagan was again positively hostile, to the extent that he had any views on any subject, and the older Bush reacted to India from his background as a bitter critic during his days as US Ambassador to the UN. Under Clinton, there was no movement until the Kargil conflict broke out, and everyone suddenly realised that two nuclear powers were locked in combat.

It was entirely the attitude of the Pakistani side - the spineless inability to resist the military on the part of the politicians, the duplicity of the military - that brought opinion at those levels around to favour India.

For further information on this, you might like to refer to the candid memoirs of key members of the administration, especially Strobe Talbot. He is devastating on the subject, and much of the illusion-peddling that goes on today between supporters of Nawaz Sharif and supporters of Musharraf would be dispelled by a reading of this book.

on the other hand India bought almost 400 Mirage 2000s, Jaguars, SU30MKIs just to take care of 40 F16s of PAF. In Kargil War India had a clear edge over PAF in BVR regime the price of which we paid while sitting on the Tiger Hill when Mirage 2000s started targeting the posts with laser guided ammo after two kills (Sqn Ldr Ajay Ahuja in a Mig 21 and Flt Lt Nachiketa in a Mig 27) were brought down by SHORADS of Pakistan Army.

Why does it never occur to any Pakistani observer to look at the inventory of the IAF at the end of 1965? Vampires and Mysteres were front-line inventory, and Gnats were the super-stars, India being the only country to fly them. This was against PAF F-86s and F-104s; even against such odds, 3 F-104s were shot down. With the increasing obsolescence of the B-57 Canberra, the Jaguar was inducted, and the Mirage 2000 because of the widening gap in inventory with the total elimination of older types such as the Vampire, the Mystere, and the Gnat, a gap that the MiG 21, in its role as point interceptor with very short range, was unable to fill. This was also when the MiG 23 and the MiG 27 were inducted. The overall strength of the IAF did not change dramatically.

At that precise point of time, the PLAAF was also strengthening itself and its existing stock of MiG 17s and MiG 19s with large numbers of MiG 21s. They also rebuilt the MiG 19 and MiG 21, and these re-builds were supplied in quantity to the PAF. The imagery of a poverty-stricken orphan service humbly depending on 40 F-16s is ludicrous.

The Indian SU30 MKI came in with the SU30 MKK; if you want to project action and reaction, this is the proper pairing.

Coming on to the present and future, India is making an effort to acquire latest systems to teach Pakistan a lesson of a life time after which Pakistan will be silenced for good and India will be able to focus on China which India considers (and rightly so) a major stumbling block in her path to greatness and becoming a superpower.

Quite clearly, this is a deliberate attempt at assuming the garb of victimhood. It is public knowledge that the IAF inventory is planned to be 42 squadrons. That just barely permits both hostile neighbours to be held off, there is no scope there for teaching lessons of a life time. It is this planned strength that is being sought to be made up; as is clear, there was, and is, no question of anybody being silenced for good. These dramatic attitudes and poses may appeal to some deep psychological inadequacy, but have no connection with real life.

Apaches, C17s, C130s, Rafales, nuclear and diesel submarines, Israeli SAMs, S400s and many other such procurements are significant achievements for a third world country like India which was used to kind of boring, unreliable, cumbersome and heavy equipment from Russia. But unfortunately for India it is not enough. Even if we disregard the nuclear aspect India needs 4:1 superiority to defeat Pakistan in a decisive manner. The rise of China as an alternate economic and military power has tilted the balance of power in favour of Pakistan. For every move which India makes, Pakistan and China are ready with a counter move. Pakistan has become a battle testing ground for Chinese equipment which suits both Pakistan and China. India's lack of imagination, failure to indigenize and political intolerance has also not helped India. Mega corruption in defence procurement (Rafale and Bofors deals being a prime examples) is yet another obstacle. India is buying weapons in bits and pieces where as Pakistan is indoctrinating weapon systems in its military fabric. With more and more budget diverted towards pays and pensions of such a huge Armed Force India is day by day faced with an ever increasing gap in balance of conventional weapons with Pakistan.

This is one half of the picture; for obvious reasons, we find the other half obscured.

On the front of armour, on the front of aircraft, there has been a clear trend in Pakistani procurement, that only your military leadership can comment on. All the comment that can be made gracefully is that the Al Zarrar and the Al Khalid might not have been the main battle tank that the Army leadership would have wanted; nor might your Air Force leadership have been happy with the JF-17, but necessity makes strange bed-fellows.

I do not see a military solution to the problems being faced by India and Pakistan. Its best for India and Pakistan to sit down and find a solution for Kashmir problem which satisfies Pakistan, India and most importantly Kashmiris. I do not see another solution to Indo Pak enmity unless both the nations want to go up in a nuclear mushroom.

For that last, there is no faith in India about Pakistan's willingness to live in peace if in a hypothetical way the Kashmir issue were to be resolved; the language conceals Pakistan's outright demand that the resolution should be one dictated by Pakistan. As this has been attempted through brute force, and has failed, and has also been sought through the deployment of extra-state players, this naked demand for acquiescence with Pakistan's desires is unlikely to gain much traction among Indian circles. If this had been the single-minded earnest objective of the Pakistani establishment, if the efforts at gaining by subterfuge in 1947-48 had not happened, if the gigantic hoax of home-grown insurgents had not been played in 1965, if there had not been an outright attack with armour and artillery on the failure of the home-grown insurgents ploy, if there had not been a covert attempt (once again, after 1947 and 1965) to gain advantage in 1999, if there was not an on-going campaign to inject terrorism into the state, there might be some credibility in such a Pakistani statement of intent.

As it is, there is none.
 
Talk about dishonesty?? You have selectively posted what Simla says and are trying to pass it off as what ICJ has said?? :disagree:

The black part is what the Simla Agreement says/implies. The Red part is what ICJ has to say:

The agreement requires the existing disputes between the countries to be settled bilaterally (and therefore, by
implication, to the exclusion of reference to third parties such as the U N except with the consent of both India and Pakistan). However, the people of Jammu and Kashmir were not parties to the Agreement and it would seem that the Agreement cannot, in their absence, override any rights which they (or any section of them) may have in
international law.

Do you mean to says ICJ do not agree with black part and its not ICJ understanding of Simla agreement? lol

Red part you already covered in other post of your for which I already answered, here it is what I wrote myself

However ICJ did evaluate if Kashmiris acquired right of self determination (notwithstanding UN resolutions) by virtue of partition, and they did commented in its favour, but that would be a separate dispute between India and Kashmiri people had kashmiris raised this request which has nothing to do with Indo -Pak dispute in UN.
 
There is no litigant as Kashmir in India-Pakistan dispute. Who represents Kashmir?

UN resolutions made recommendations to resolve Indo - Pak dispute, and plebiscite was merely a tool recommended. It never restrict India Pak to resolve by other means, Agra being an example.

Sorry you are being dishonest here.



24

Man and wife had a child. Both go for a divorce and fight for child custody. Court left the decision on child. Parents reconciled and decided in favor of mother. Does that left the right with child, still?

@M. Sarmad Just to add, UN resolution gave Kashmir option either to chose India or Pakistan and nothing else, how come it become their right of self determination if independence is not on cards? Its just to settle India Pak dispute. No dispute, no plebiscite.

Your kind of banging your head on a stone

The whole point of partition was that we hated hindus and didn't trust India

Kashmir as a Muslim majority state should have gone to Pakistan by any sane reasoning

Trying to force a Muslim majority state into a increasingly hindutva union has created chaos and insecurity in South Asia


As India turns increasingly hindutva, so even Indian Muslims start to protest and push back


Delhi itself was burning


Needless greed and stupidity by India
 
Do you mean to says ICJ do not agree with black part and its not ICJ understanding of Simla agreement? lol

Red part you already covered in other post of your for which I already answered, here it is what I wrote myself

Give it a rest, mate ...
You have been caught lying
Adios
 

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