Indian Army rejects calls to raise new units based on caste or religion

[Skull and Bones]

Come to Rajasthan. SC/ST are blocking other SC/ST/OBC.

Can you please elaborate it?

 

[dronedevta]

People have a very wrong notion about castes mainly because of the propaganda of how evil caste is. There is nothing wrong in having castes. Social stratification or grouping is present in every society in the world. The key is not using that as a vehicle of discrimination. While I have no problem with castes, the problem is having caste based discrimination. While the latter must be abolished, the former need not.

In absence of a main church you cannot post castes, secondly those who got their caste made them permanent via their position in society.

It is a FACT that post sutra literature abused lower caste heavily .

Castes in PRESENT day scenario DIVIDE society and DISCRIMINATE and hence SHOULD be ERADICATED .

 

[KS]

Can you please elaborate it?

Gujjars getting pissed because Meena getting ST status and demanding the same for themselves.

I believe in Rajasthan all Jat, Gujjar, Meena come under OBC/SC category.

It is a FACT that post sutra literature abused lower caste throughout .

Castes in PRESENT day scenario DIVIDE society and DISCRIMINATE and hence SHOULD be ERADICATED .

No body is denying that OBC,SC,ST were discriminated against..Im a OBC myself..so what ? This is one of my identiy and why shoud I allow it to be erased because some insecure prick is discriminating based on that. As I said the key is abolishing caste based discrimination and where the system is itself at fault, reforming the system.

 

[Skull and Bones]

Gujjars getting pissed because Meena getting ST status and demanding the same for themselves.

I believe in Rajasthan all Jat, Gujjar, Meena come under OBC/SC category.

But here in WB, Jatt doesn't fall in any SC/ST class AFAIK.

 

[JanjaWeed]

But here in WB, Jatt doesn't fall in any SC/ST class AFAIK.

Maybe there is less caste based politics in Bengal. or maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Ayush]

Very good decision.

these politicians want to poke their nose everywhere

Come to Rajasthan. SC/ST are blocking other SC/ST/OBC.

Its all about politics.

At least it shouldn't be in Armed Forces.

Ya. I read about it.

 

[dronedevta]

No body is denying that OBC,SC,ST were discriminated against..Im a OBC myself..so what ? This is one of my identiy and why shoud I allow it to be erased because some insecure prick is discriminating based on that. As I said the key is abolishing caste based discrimination and where the system is itself at fault, reforming the system.

As I told you that we don't have a church so discrimination CANNOT be stopped without ending them .

No, castes mostly don't show the IDENTITY they are mythical as my family holds a surname with show that they are decedents of sage parashar but according to history we were hunas .

 

[Alphacharlie]

Army rejects calls to raise new units based on caste or religion
​

NEW DELHI: The Army has once again strongly rejected calls for raising new "single-class" units like the Gujarat, Kalinga, Dalit, Ahir, Paswan or Tribal regiments as well as attempts to tinker with its "time-tested" regimental system.

"The policy since Independence is not to raise any new regiment on the basis of a particular class, creed, community, religion or region but to have a force in which all Indians have representation. This is the well-defined position of both the defence ministry and Army," said a senior official.

Added a top general, "Politics should not be played with the apolitical armed forces. The Army is an inclusive, secular force, open to all. It's for that reason the force had even opposed the religious headcount proposed by the Sachar Committee in 2005-06."

Having just finished with the Republic Day celebrations as well as the Army Day on January 15, which marks the day when Field Marshal K M Cariappa became the first Indian chief of the force in 1949, the 1.13-million-strong Army is equally steadfast about resisting any changes in its regimental system.

But it's the existence of this system, with a preponderance of "single-class" regiments like the Sikh, Gorkha, Dogra, Garhwal, Jat and the like, which propels politicians and others to demand a Dalit Regiment, like LJP chief Ram Vilas Paswan often does, or a Gujarat Regiment, as proposed by L K Advani when he was the deputy prime minister.

Single-class or "pure" regiments were raised during the Raj based on the classification of certain communities as "martial races". After 1947, India, however, decided to continue with these caste or community-based units because "regimental history, ethos and loyalty" was considered to be the main driving force in combat effectiveness and operational performance.

"Soldiers from the same clan fight better from the same foxhole. These tradition-bound regiments have proved themselves in combat in all conflicts since 1947. They should not be dismantled," said a major-general.

This "battalion esprit de corps" was quite evident during the 1999 Kargil conflict. Quizzed why they had made those daredevil assaults against fortified positions held by Pakistani intruders, the common refrain among jawans was that the "paltan's izzat" (the battalion's honour) was at stake, more than loftier notions about fighting for the flag and the country.

While officers can be commissioned into any unit, the infantry's 23 regiments — with over 350 battalions under them — are basically of three types. Single-class units constitute around 60% of the whole. Even among them, the further sub-divisions are based on community or caste. The Army's seven Gorkha Rifles, for instance, recruit separately from the Gurung, Rai, Limbu, Magar and other communities, both from India and Nepal.

The aim after Independence has been to raise "All India-All Class" regiments, like the Brigade of Guards, where jawans are recruited from all over the country irrespective of class and percentage. "The endeavour is to progressively move towards such regiments," said a Brigadier.

In between these two are the "mixed" and "fixed" class units like the Grenadiers or the Mahar Regiment. The 4 Grenadiers, for instance, has two companies of Jats, one company of Muslims and one company of Dogras. Similarly, Rajputana Rifles has an equal mix between Rajputs and Jats, while the Rajput Regiment mainly has Rajputs and Gujars with a sprinkling of Muslims and Bengalis.

"Jawans, with similar language and eating habits, have kinship, brotherhood...they form a cohesive fighting force. Even in mixed class regiments like Grenadiers, individual companies - the basic fighting units — are `pure'," said a Colonel.

The other "fighting arms" like the armoured corps and artillery also have several instances of "pure" units among them. Many artillery medium or field regiments, for instance, are "pure" ones recruiting only Gorkhas, Sikhs, Jats, Ahirs or Marathas into their respective folds. But "support" arms like ASC, EME, Ordnance, Signals and the like are resolutely "all-class" units.

Army rejects calls to raise new units based on caste or religion - The Economic Times

The Credit Goes Visionary Generals like K.M Cariappa who created such SOLID Foundations..............

TAGRA RAHO

 

[perplexed]

Can you please elaborate it?

The meenas who are STs now are blocking the gujjars being included into it cause it will increase the competition in ST quota. Yeah dude sounds grossly stupid but that's reality.

Actually the ruckus in rajasthan started cause the then CM promised the gujjars that they will be included into ST categaroy if voted to power. Now that the Supreme Court has ruled that bringing gujjars into ST is unconstitutional then the entire butt hurt gujjar community went berserk !!

 

[janon]

That is so wrong.

Why are people so insecure that everything has to be forced ? Forced?

What's wrong in raising region based or even ethnicity based units ?You didn't read my post properly. I was arguing for region based units (which there already are), and against caste/religion based ones. At the end of the day they all fight towards one goal.So then what is the need for caste based units? Rajputs or Dogras or nagas or Gorkhas..does not matter who they are.They fight for India. Exactly. So why not fight together?So why not provide an environment that maximises their activity rather than club various groups into one regiment for the sake of some "unity" while in reality that may actually reduce their soldierness ? As I explained, region based intake will provide camaraderie and unity. As I mentioned, in other places like, colleges or workplace or in the public space, people gel on the basis of region and language, not caste. When two people are from the same village, they will have a sense of unity. Irrespective of their caste or creed.

The golden rule in life is - NEVER EVER TRY TO FIX SOMETHING THAT IS NOT BROKEN.But always keep improving.

And to claims about not raising a single caste/race based regiment - what about the Naga regiment ?

Also Jat regiment or Rajput regiment are not "pure" regiments. The Jat regiment is made of Jats, Yadavs and Ahirs while the Rajput regiment as the article says is made of Rajputs and Gujjars.I know all that. This infinetimal subdivision is completely pointless.

Barring the Sikh regiment and Sikh LI no other regiment can be considered "pure". Even though inside regiment the battalions are organized to be pure.

I agree with the IA's point that soldiers in most cases do fight for the sake of paltan's izzat and having someone who understands your culture and way of thinking around you makes you do feats that would be impossible in a "secular" or "mixed" environment. Again - people from the region will share the same culture and language.Keeping aside all the hoopla about all of us being Indians - the fact of the matter is subconsciously one tends to gel well with and trust another person of his own upbringing than with some other.Subconsciously or otherwise, I (and I'm sure you) don't bond with people simply because they happen to be from my caste or creed. Hometown, region, language, yes. And in battlefields where trust matters as much as anything else that is a very important factor.

p.s: I dont agree with the SC/ST/OBC demand..that is downright ridiculous for the single reason SC/ST/OBC are not homogenous groups but they are fractured in their own way.

My responses in red.

 

[Skull and Bones]

The meenas who are STs now are blocking the gujjars being included into it cause it will increase the competition in ST quota. Yeah dude sounds grossly stupid but that's reality.

Actually the ruckus in rajasthan started cause the then CM promised the gujjars that they will be included into ST categaroy if voted to power. Now that the Supreme Court has ruled that bringing gujjars into ST is unconstitutional then the entire butt hurt gujjar community went berserk !!

Wah...excellent.

And people still advocating in favor of castism and reservations based on it.

 

[MehrotraPrince]

There has to be a separate regiment for SC/ST/OBC, and as the laws of reservation suggest, they'll be deployed first in combat zone.

Then we'll see how capable and qualified these SC/STs are.

Keep your cheap jokes with yourself.

This is the reason why few politicians have coined the word "Hindu Terrorism" or even "Islamic Terrorism". The reason why our society is still divided and discriminated even after 60 years of Independence on the basis of Caste, Region and religion......Just because of people like You and Me.

 

[janon]

Keep your cheap jokes with yourself.

This is the reason why few politicians have coined the word "Hindu Terrorism" or even "Islamic Terrorism". The reason why our society is still divided and discriminated even after 60 years of Independence on the basis of Caste, Region and religion......Just because of people like You and Me.

Really? The reason for phrases like "Islamic terrorism" or "Hindu terrorism" is because of people who crack cheap jokes?

Maybe the reason for the existence of such phrases is because there are people who kill innocent people, blow up buses and trains, shoot people in cities, all in the name of religion.

You are trivializing religious terrorism when you equate cracking jokes to such acts.

Note: I completely disagree with his remarks.

 

[Screambowl]

great!!!!

 

[KRAIT]

After its projects to change Indian history to 'secular' history, the United Progressive Alliance [ Images ] govt seems to have launched a project to make the army 'secular'.

The Indian Army [ Images ] is an apolitical, professional body that is extremely proud of its dharma of loyalty to the nation and its Constitution. It does not believe in practising discrimination on the basis of religion, caste or colour.

I felt a tremendous sense of pride when at an Independence Day function in Pune in 2002 (in the aftermath of the horrible Gujarat riots) Qutubuddin Ansari, the tailor from Ahmedabad [ Images ] who became famous as the face of that tragedy, told me it was the Indian Army's timely arrival that had saved him and his family.

In an emotion choked voice, he said throughout his life he would pray for the success of the Indian Army. Many officers and men have told me how Muslims greeted the army's arrival by showering them with flowers. The army's impartial conduct in quelling riots is a matter of great pride to all soldiers.

'We are an apolitical and secular force'

The Indian Army is a traditional force and many battalions are organised on the basis of regions and caste. Thus we have the Sikh regiment, the Marathas, the Gorkhas etc. But this does not apply at the officer level. So it is no surprise to see a Mohammed Zaki commanding Garhwali troops or a Y N Sharma as commanding officer of the Grenadiers(which incidentally has Muslim soldiers).

As head of the family, which is what a commanding officer is, it is common for Zaki to conduct the puja on Janmashtami, celebrating the birth of Lord Krishna, or for Sharma to lead the namaz on Id Ul Fitr after Ramzan.

Faced with an insurgency in Kashmir [ Images ] that freely uses religion as a motivating factor, the army has has constructed combined prayer halls, called Sarva Dharma Sthal ( All Religion Place of Worship) where you have all the gods and symbols of all religions under one roof. These can be found at in Anantnag in Kashmir and even in Pune.

It is undoubtedly true that the number of Muslims in the Army is less than their proportion in the population. This is a historical legacy as the recruitment of Muslims in the armed forces in pre-Independence India was concentrated in Punjab [ Images ], North West Frontier and Balochistan, all part of Pakistan today.

A similar argument can be also made on the basis of region. The states of Orissa or Gujarat or even Andhra Pradesh are not represented in proportion to their population. To assume any bias on this basis is to see evil where none exists.

The all-wise Sachar Committee has initiated an exercise that is fraught with great danger as it hits at the very notion of fair play. The basis on which this exercise is being carried out is a book by an American citizen, Omar Khalidi, (Khaki and Ethnic Violence in India). Khalidi works at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in the United States. As a matter of record, he had got in touch with me about two years ago seeking data on the Indian Army. It is another matter that seeing his intention, I and my colleagues refused any cooperation. But he obviously has won over Sachar and party.

We ought to smell a rat when the Sachar Committee approvingly quotes from Khalidi's book and makes it as the basis for its 'work.'

What every soldier finds most objectionable in the exercise is Sachar's notion of equating the armed forces with any other department of the central government. Could Mr Sachar please tell us in which other organisation is dying for the country part of the 'job'?

The committee also had the gall to say that the army made 'unnecessary fuss about this on grounds of regimental spirit and cohesion.' Do the Sachar committee members realise that the two factors -- regimental spirit and cohesion -- are the very soul of any army?

These are the factors that bind soldiers and officers to each other. People sacrifice their lives on the battlefield for the izzat (respect) of the regiment and save their comrades at the risk of their own lives.

Without these an army is merely a mob of armed violent men which would melt at the first sign of danger. When someone terms this as 'frivolous', it betrays a mindset that is not merely stupid, but dangerous.

Diary: Soldiers' God

Finally, a word about desertion during Hyderabad action (in 1948-1949) and Turtuk problem during the Kargil operations in 1999.

During the Hyderabad action, the Indian Army was in process of division between India and Pakistan on grounds of religion. To call these acts as desertion would label the entire Pakistani army as 'deserters.'

During the Kargil [ Images ] operations, the small population of Turtuk area was a complex issue. This area, right till 1971, was part of Pakistan and was captured during that war. The area had many ex-soldiers of the Pakistani army, still receiving pension. To expect them to become pro-India was not fair. So what was proposed (possibly) during the Kargil war, was not evacuation of Muslims, but evacuation of ex-Pakistanis from a sensitive battle zone. Are there any such reports regarding the Muslim population of Kargil, Dras etc?

Many former and serving soldiers believe that this data collection is the thin end of the wedge of introducing religion or caste-based reservations in the armed forces.

The Sachar Committee's bias has been clearly shown by their reliance on foreign research. It is time the government prohibits the Sachar Committee from dealing with the armed forces.

This does not mean that the government should not ask the army to conduct an exercise as to why the proportion of Muslims or Christians or Gujaratis is less in the armed forces.

Finally a counter question to the Sachar Committee: What is the proportion of Muslim employees in Muslim-owned companies like Wipro [ Get Quote ] and Cipla? If it is less than their proportion in population, do we take it that the Muslim owners of these companies are also against the minorities?

Is there no limit to 'vote bank' politics, for the sake of which a government is prepared to destroy the efficiency and cohesion of its armed forces and jeopardise the nation's security?

Muslims in the Army: A dangerous census