Indian army looking to secede ‘Azad Kashmir’ from Pakistan on BD pattern

[vsdoc]

Thanks and good to see you back . Hope all is well at your side

I was just bored and in the neighborhood.

 

[KS]

The quoted article opens as Veteran diplomat Henry Kissinger, the architect of the US' historic opening to China, has denied that that the US struck a secret pact with India to prevent an attack on West Pakistan in 1971.

Yeah I got misled by the partial quote of the source.

If there were any proof for this; something...anything credible, I'd be more than willing to examine it & form my opinion, Thank You.

Need to go through some of my 1971 bookmarks from which I got this info. But then again they were not in set-in-stone explicit format. You know how this works.

I suppose it didn't matter in the least bit after Kargil, after the '01 Stand-off or even after Mumbai ! So don't give me that 'restraint' nonsense.

Kargil, I dont know what you guys means quibble about. Day after day for months everything at our disposal was thrown at hunting and evicting the pakistani regulars and mujaheddin out. Sure we did not cross the LoC, but that was the ably complemented by the diplomatic blitz by Jaswant Singh which made Pakistan the international pariah in that matter and even Pakistans blood brothers Saudi and China did not condemn Indian actions. As I have always maintained Pakistan must start reading up what diplomacy actually means and how to effectively use it. It was because of the diplomatic effort of India after Kargil that no one even started touching Pakistan's position on Kashmir with a 10 ft barge pole.

As for Operation Parakram - I know an entire generation of Pakistanis and Indians are brought up on the notiion it was a failure. no it was not. Lucky (ironically) timing ensured that US intervened and forced Musharraf to shut down most of the militant camps on the P-O-K region so that Pakistan does not get distracted in the looming war on the western front.

Mumbai - I repeat I am one of those who believe it was repaid in kind. Take what you will out of it.

 

[KS]

A very important factor that many members here are failing to grasp is, the defences of West Pakistan were intact. East Pakistan was lightly armed due to Ayub Khan's flawed policy of 'Defence of East lies in the West'. Majority of the infantry, armoured and air assets were intact, mobilized and placed on the Western borders. FM Manekshaw had a year to plan for the invasion of East Pakistan, there is no evidence to suggest that a similar plan existed for the invasion of West Pakistan. Just by making a mere statement that Indira Gandhi had a plan to invade West Pakistan does not make it true. Invasion of West Pakistan was easier said than done, their would have been stiff resistance outright from the start and it does not appear that India was ready to sacrifice the amount of blood that was required to conquer West Pakistan.

We had 40,000+ of your soldiers in custody. Plus to put it bluntly the morale of Pakistani troops was broken,defeatist and dejected after the surrender in East and it was no where near the high point of the Indian troops. Pakistani Navy was bottled up in Karachi with Indian Navy pounding the hell out of it and PAF getting reduced to hangar queens to reduce equipment loss. Pakistan simply did not have the resources to continue the war if India had chosen to. But being a third world country dependent on one superpower to manage other superpower we had to give in to cold war realities.

Thats the biggest problem with this Indian mindset, if you think these puny little attacks can shake the core of the State than you couldn't be more wrong. There are problems in Pakistan, no doubt about that but not serious enough to inflict the collapse of the State. We know we have problems, and we are working hard to rectify them.

That you think that what Pakistan is going through is not an existential problem is our advantage. Sure it is not the high flying army vs army conventional warfare from India that Pakistan is faced with now. It is faced with a far more lethal enemy that Pakistan has not even figured out till now. The enemy here is not physical which can be fought by Al-Khalids and baburs..but lethal idealogy that actually makes you all kafirs and appeals to the notion under which Pakistan was created - Islam. Your enemy knows who his enemy (State of Pakistan) is. But you dont know who your enemy is and is just firing blindly at all sides thus creating more enemies. And we Indians have ringside view of this whole scenario.

And please, keep this talk of 'restraint' for your fellow countrymen. Do you even know what striking hard means? Striking hard means reducing your enemy to a position where he does not remain in a position to pose a threat to you in the future. Has this happened?

I say Pakistan is not a threat to India. That moment has ceased to exist back in the 90s and early 2000s. And that is what I said, we, by the providence of Karma, do not even have to strike hard to make Pak kneel down now. The wonderful idealogies that Pak imported and groomed in the 80s and 90s as a hedge against India are doing a far effective job inside Pakistan.

 

[Contrarian]

A very important factor that many members here are failing to grasp is, the defences of West Pakistan were intact. East Pakistan was lightly armed due to Ayub Khan's flawed policy of 'Defence of East lies in the West'. Majority of the infantry, armoured and air assets were intact, mobilized and placed on the Western borders. FM Manekshaw had a year to plan for the invasion of East Pakistan, there is no evidence to suggest that a similar plan existed for the invasion of West Pakistan. Just by making a mere statement that Indira Gandhi had a plan to invade West Pakistan does not make it true. Invasion of West Pakistan was easier said than done, their would have been stiff resistance outright from the start and it does not appear that India was ready to sacrifice the amount of blood that was required to conquer West Pakistan.

Ready to sacrifice is a relative concept. India was willing to goto a full fledged war over Kargil, if it had turned out that IA/IAF were absolutely unable to evict PA. And that was 1999 - the weakest IA has ever been!

In 1971, IA had just effectively split Pakistan, had over 90,000 PoW's, psychologically it was tremendous advantage for IA and disadvantage for PA.

So whether Indira Gandhi was willing to take the war to West Pakistan - knowing how Indira Gandhi was, there would not be the slightest hesitation in saying- Yes.

That being said, Americans played the biggest part in stopping Indira Gandhi. Ultimatum's were served, West Pakistan was to be USA's redline.

Thats the biggest problem with this Indian mindset, if you think these puny little attacks can shake the core of the State than you couldn't be more wrong. There are problems in Pakistan, no doubt about that but not serious enough to inflict the collapse of the State. We know we have problems, and we are working hard to rectify them.

These sort of attacks sap a nations strength. India wishes to have an unbridgeable gap between itself and Pakistan. As long as Pakistan remains mired in terrorism, poverty, extremism, it does not grow economically, technologically. We do. We have made a sizeable gap in the last decade. There is hope that we can make it 2 decades - ie keep Pakistan mired till 2020 atleast before it recovers. That seems the most likely outcome in any case.

And please, keep this talk of 'restraint' for your fellow countrymen. Do you even know what striking hard means? Striking hard mans reducing your enemy to a position where he does not remain in a position to pose a threat to you in the future. Has this happened?

You tell me. Would Pakistan have been in a far better position vis-a-vis India had it still been united?
If the answer is Yes, then Indira was able to achieve her goal.

A simple look a the balance of forces would suggest that Indian military lacks the muscle to inflict a defeat on PA and disband it. If you could have done it, believe me you would have done it. It was not for lack of restraint that IA didn't go to war with Pakistan in 2001 and 2008, it was because PA mobilized faster and had her defences setup before the IA could. So please, stop hiding behind this excuse of 'lacking political spine' and accept the reality. Looking at the current balance of forces, PA is immune from a military strike from IA.

PA is not immune. IA is immune. There was a point in time when IA was actually worried about PA being able to attack India! That has changed completely! From being an offensive force PA is now an exclusively defensive force.
While PA still has to factor a threat perception, today IA is absolutely immune and sure that PA will never ever initiate war with India for lack of capability.

While India cannot still attack because of cost-benefit calculations as you rightly said. India would pay a heavy price for invading Pakistan currently, these calculations change with every passing year as India adds more to her arsenal and economy than Pakistan. As i said, the objective is to have atleast 2 decades of advantage over Pakistan. The equations are changing steadily.

Really

Than why are your strategic planners making hue and cry about the presence of KKH and the presence of Chinese engineers in AK. Your actions seem contradictory to your words. Also, please expand on your long term objectives?

You know the answer to that. Why does US keep moaning about China's increasing defence budget. It is not because China can mount a military threat to US.

 

[haviZsultan]

Note another political movement. If Telangana comes to being - Those muslims in hyderabad who espouse hatred against India will be on the wrong end of a nasty stick. It would change all the political dynamics of the region.

Owaisi has opposed the formation of Telangana. India's politics sure are similar to ours.

 

[notorious_eagle]

I was just bored and in the neighborhood.

Good to have you here Sir, always good to hear a divergent view.

Still waiting for your opinion regarding India's long term objectives and what it would require.

Kargil, I dont know what you guys means quibble about. Day after day for months everything at our disposal was thrown at hunting and evicting the pakistani regulars and mujaheddin out. Sure we did not cross the LoC,

Do you seriously think that we are that stupid to believe that IA did not cross the LOC out of the goodness of her heart. Here's a newsflash, the entire 12th Division is deployed to make sure that you don't cross the LOC. I Corps has a control headquarter located in Mirpur Khas District, so please stop spewing Bull

but that was the ably complemented by the diplomatic blitz by Jaswant Singh which made Pakistan the international pariah in that matter and even Pakistans blood brothers Saudi and China did not condemn Indian actions. As I have always maintained Pakistan must start reading up what diplomacy actually means and how to effectively use it.

Just one question, as you claimed that Pakistan was bestowed with the honour of a pariah status similar to North Korea and Iran due to Indian diplomatic efforts, has the world cut off its diplomatic and economic links with Pakistan? If not, than it appears that those diplomatic efforts fell quite short of the claims you are making. And i agree with you, Pakistan needs to improve its diplomatic activities.

It was because of the diplomatic effort of India after Kargil that no one even started touching Pakistan's position on Kashmir with a 10 ft barge pole.

True, but the more important reason was the world lost interest in Kashmir after 9-11 and India became economically strong so the world was more interested in trading with India.

As for Operation Parakram - I know an entire generation of Pakistanis and Indians are brought up on the notiion it was a failure. no it was not. Lucky (ironically) timing ensured that US intervened and forced Musharraf to shut down most of the militant camps on the P-O-K region so that Pakistan does not get distracted in the looming war on the western front.

Oh For God's sake, your new name should be Mr. Spin Doctor

Operation Parakram was a failure from every angle. Your entire intelligentsia has criticized the Indian Army to the highest level. If Op Parakram was such a success, why in the world did the Indian Army go into a frantic reorganization to try and rectify the mistakes that were committed. Without firing a single shot, you lost more than 800 men in accidents during the mobilization process. It took you more than 2 entire months to mobilize, that itself is incompetency of the highest level.

Mumbai - I repeat I am one of those who believe it was repaid in kind. Take what you will out of it.

Did that repay ensure that a repeat of Mumbai is not possible again? If not, than it is a failure. Punitive strikes don't make a dent, only strategic strikes too. This is something history teaches us.

 

[KS]

@notorious_eagle..the idealogy I was talking about. Looking at the likes of Zarvan here, I feel India has nothing to fear about Pakistan in the future. They are our fifth column inside Pakistan and the sad thing is you cannot defeat them or even attack them. Why ? Because they are more Islamic than you and they use the same Islam, that you planned to use against us, against you.

 

[Contrarian]

I was just bored and in the neighborhood.

Welcome back doc!
I understand some concerns, but if possible lets exchange emails!
send me your email id - even an interim id in PM.

 

[rockstarIN]

Mundackal Shekharan and Ramji Rao terrorised our nation for over 5 years. Its no laughing matter. I had hoped people would avoid bringing it up so pakistanis here wouldn't start using it to bash our nation.

What's wrong with you ?

Separatist leaders like Cochin haneefa needs to be exiled. Shame on GOI.

Google must have getting more and more searches on 'cochin Haneefa, Mundakal shekharan, Keeleri achu, thalathil Dineshan' by Indian well-wisher Pakistanis.

 

[Contrarian]

Owaisi has opposed the formation of Telangana. India's politics sure are similar to ours.

Yup. Because the reason Owaisi family gets away with what they do is because of Congress political patronage of AP. He knows something bad will happen if Telangana is formed.

However its not upto him. The movement seems to be strong. Lets see what comes off it. The problem is if GoI agrees, then it will spark similar demands from many other areas - NE in particular. Some want ridiculous sized states.

 

[KS]

Owaisi has opposed the formation of Telangana. India's politics sure are similar to ours.

Hi fortune cookies. Owaisi is a nobody outside the slums of Old City in Hyderabad.

I am eagerly waiting for the formation of Telengana. That would be the family planning of MIM.

As for the younger Owaisi, he can start adjusting himself to the insides of jai. He is going to be there for a long time.

 

[OrionHunter]

Kashmir is the vital part of Pakistan so such absurd not going to effect on our cause it has no importance what he said. A biggest democracy stands over 120 000 Kashmirs dead bodies. How's Pathetic. Shameful for India shameful for those betray struggle of Kashmirs to be part of Pakistan.

Can we talk about Balochistan too? Shall I list for you the atrocities going on out there and the struggle of the people who are fighting for their freedom?

Unfortunately I can't since I will be banned! So, before ranting about Kashmir, have a peek inside your own house.

 

[vsdoc]

Good to have you here Sir, always good to hear a divergent view.

Still waiting for your opinion regarding India's long term objectives and what it would require.

If you ask me as a complete novice, I feel India is buying time.

Time to distance itself from you.

Time to grow capability.

Both offensive and sustainability.

Time can be bought only in peace, not war.

While we actively try to move ahead.

And passively try to slow you down, if not stop you in your tracks.

That is why every time we have been faced with a choice, we have chosen to back down.

Cahanakya always said choose a time and place of your choosing.

I think we are waiting for the right time and right place.

And preparing for it in the interim.

All this is just my highly untrained perception of course.

Welcome back doc!
I understand some concerns, but if possible lets exchange emails!
send me your email id - even an interim id in PM.

- edited -

 

[haviZsultan]

Hi fortune cookies. Owaisi is a nobody outside the slums of Old City in Hyderabad.

I am eagerly waiting for the formation of Telengana. That would be the family planning of MIM.

As for the younger Owaisi, he can start adjusting himself to the insides of jai. He is going to be there for a long time.

I should have added:
....And different from ours in many ways too...

First it was Kashmir, then North East.. Now people are concentrating more on breaking up Hydrabad from India

Kashmir is already simmering and 87% want freedom. In Hyderabad very few do.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

The people of Azad Kashmir are so anti indian that even in a Bollywood movie it's hard to imagine such a script by the banias