Indian Air Force News & Discussions

[kmc_chacko]

IAF to buy 156 more ‘Prachand’ Light Combat choppers for deployment along China, Pak border

https://www.aninews.in/news/national/general-news/iaf-to-buy-156-more-prachand-light-combat-choppers-for-deployment-along-china-pak-border20230929165636/

 

[Puffin]

90 years of the Indian Air Force

 

[Gomig-21]

Sad day, fellas.

The legendary Russian-origin MiG-21 jets are set to participate for the last time at the annual Air Force Day parade on October 8, with the IAF rolling out the process to phase out the remaining three squadrons of the aircraft.

 

[MirageBlue]

Sad day, fellas.

The legendary Russian-origin MiG-21 jets are set to participate for the last time at the annual Air Force Day parade on October 8, with the IAF rolling out the process to phase out the remaining three squadrons of the aircraft.

View attachment 958178

It has served more than it's fair share, taking on the burden of Air Defence, Ground Strike and even as a LIFT which it was simply not designed to do.

As a person who loves the MiG-21 design, I'll be sad to see it retire, but from the POV of safety and capabilities, I'm more than thrilled that the Tejas Mk1A will be replacing it in 200+ numbers. That was the dream of all Indian defence enthusiasts for the last 2 decades and that is finally coming true!

The difference in the capabilities, ease of flying, avionics and flight safety between the MiG-21 variants and the Tejas LCA is basically huge. And that is a very good reason to retire these venerable work-horses.

 

[MirageBlue]

Brahmos Extended Range (ER) tested from a Su-30MKI that flew 1500 kms before dropping the ALCM. Can be used against ground targets as well as ships. From the Andaman & Nicobar island bases, as well as other bases in South India, any enemy battle ship formations can be targeted by this supersonic ALCM.

 

[Gomig-21]

It has served more than it's fair share, taking on the burden of Air Defence, Ground Strike and even as a LIFT which it was simply not designed to do.

As a person who loves the MiG-21 design, I'll be sad to see it retire, but from the POV of safety and capabilities, I'm more than thrilled that the Tejas Mk1A will be replacing it in 200+ numbers. That was the dream of all Indian defence enthusiasts for the last 2 decades and that is finally coming true!

The difference in the capabilities, ease of flying, avionics and flight safety between the MiG-21 variants and the Tejas LCA is basically huge. And that is a very good reason to retire these venerable work-horses.

Indeed. I know the process is gradual because of the large number of those aircraft being retired, but I wonder what India does in such a case? Will it recycle certain elements of each or actually store a substantial number of them for emergencies? I'm guessing a bit of both.

Its history is a classic, like the underdog of fighters at the time. Competing with the Mirage III (even the F-4 Phantom) in all aspects, from looks to dogfighting capabilities which sadly it underperformed in due to its design; "a rocket with wings." Unfortunately the loss of energy when transitioning from high airspeeds to slower speeds hampered its maneuverability & dogfighting capabilities. Its main Achilles heel. The Vietnamese & Indians (and Arabs to a certain extent) adapted their own tactics to make the best of it. Bleeding energy with drastic airspeed changes wasn't its only handicap, unfortunately. The initial models from the F-13 to the PF & even the MF suffered from the severe shifting in the aircraft's center of gravity as fuel was rapidly consumed. Not to mention it already was at a disadvantage with its low fuel capacity and fast consumption from the usage of the afterburner. IIRC, the early models had 25 minutes of flight time at full AB. So the pilots who flew and fought with it had to deal with all these negative factors, but they still loved it from all the evident testimonials.

Because it's such a favorite of yours truly, I tend to bring up this fact every once in a while when discussing this legend. So pls forgive if you've already heard this before. Some know this but most think that the MiG-21's first kill was either by a Soviet or Vietnamese 21. It was actually by an Egyptian pilot on December 10th, 1964. The pic in my avatar is from this article here.

The pilot of an Egyptian MiG-21F-13 as seen in his “office.” David Nicolle Collection.

Not a glamorous A2A kill, but nonetheless the first recorded kill for the MiG-21.
The EAF -- as I'm sure other air forces as well -- discovered that those original F-13s which had their entire fuselage kept in their shiny, metallic form without any camouflage were easy targets. Other pilots from trailing squadrons would instantly notice the wicked bright glare from the sun reflecting off that shiny aluminum body & wings which made them dead giveaways from a distance. That was the main impetus to all the crazy array of camouflage patterns that ensued on the Egyptian MiG-21s and even its other aircraft. The famous "spinach & sand" zebra camo was a classic.

I believe the term "Flying coffin" originated from this classic which is a sad shame. All the success that China's Chengdu corporation had from Soviet MiG designs was another testament to the venerable MiG-21. Their successful exports of the F-7 in all its forms was essentially a duplicate of the F-13. The sports car of MiG-21s.

I think India mostly flew the FL model if I'm not mistaken. It differed slightly from the F-13 I believe in the canopy hinge. Instead of a forward hinge (which apparently was a major hazard during ejections), the FL had a side hinge.

Too bad India didn't make a deal with the Soviets like China did with its ability to locally produce the Bison. I would think that would've been a gleaming export success. Bison was a great name, and I would've added "Beastmode" to it! lol

Between the Bison and the Romanian Lancer, two of the classic 21's of all-time.

 

[MirageBlue]

Indeed. I know the process is gradual because of the large number of those aircraft being retired, but I wonder what India does in such a case? Will it recycle certain elements of each or actually store a substantial number of them for emergencies? I'm guessing a bit of both.

Its history is a classic, like the underdog of fighters at the time. Competing with the Mirage III (even the F-4 Phantom) in all aspects, from looks to dogfighting capabilities which sadly it underperformed in due to its design; "a rocket with wings." Unfortunately the loss of energy when transitioning from high airspeeds to slower speeds hampered its maneuverability & dogfighting capabilities. Its main Achilles heel. The Vietnamese & Indians (and Arabs to a certain extent) adapted their own tactics to make the best of it. Bleeding energy with drastic airspeed changes wasn't its only handicap, unfortunately. The initial models from the F-13 to the PF & even the MF suffered from the severe shifting in the aircraft's center of gravity as fuel was rapidly consumed. Not to mention it already was at a disadvantage with its low fuel capacity and fast consumption from the usage of the afterburner. IIRC, the early models had 25 minutes of flight time at full AB. So the pilots who flew and fought with it had to deal with all these negative factors, but they still loved it from all the evident testimonials.

Because it's such a favorite of yours truly, I tend to bring up this fact every once in a while when discussing this legend. So pls forgive if you've already heard this before. Some know this but most think that the MiG-21's first kill was either by a Soviet or Vietnamese 21. It was actually by an Egyptian pilot on December 10th, 1964. The pic in my avatar is from this article here.

View attachment 963517
The pilot of an Egyptian MiG-21F-13 as seen in his “office.” David Nicolle Collection.

Not a glamorous A2A kill, but nonetheless the first recorded kill for the MiG-21.
The EAF -- as I'm sure other air forces as well -- discovered that those original F-13s which had their entire fuselage kept in their shiny, metallic form without any camouflage were easy targets. Other pilots from trailing squadrons would instantly notice the wicked bright glare from the sun reflecting off that shiny aluminum body & wings which made them dead giveaways from a distance. That was the main impetus to all the crazy array of camouflage patterns that ensued on the Egyptian MiG-21s and even its other aircraft. The famous "spinach & sand" zebra camo was a classic.

View attachment 963520

I believe the term "Flying coffin" originated from this classic which is a sad shame. All the success that China's Chengdu corporation had from Soviet MiG designs was another testament to the venerable MiG-21. Their successful exports of the F-7 in all its forms was essentially a duplicate of the F-13. The sports car of MiG-21s.

View attachment 963542

I think India mostly flew the FL model if I'm not mistaken. It differed slightly from the F-13 I believe in the canopy hinge. Instead of a forward hinge (which apparently was a major hazard during ejections), the FL had a side hinge.

View attachment 963543

Too bad India didn't make a deal with the Soviets like China did with its ability to locally produce the Bison. I would think that would've been a gleaming export success. Bison was a great name, and I would've added "Beastmode" to it! lol

Between the Bison and the Romanian Lancer, two of the classic 21's of all-time.

View attachment 963531

View attachment 963525

Hi GoMiG-21, here in India, for the longest time if one was an IAF pilot, one had flown a MiG-21 for sure. It gave rise to a whole generation of pilots who loved the jet and it's performance. Pretty much all IAF pilots who've ever talked about the MiG-21 have had good things to say about it.

IAF started with the MiG-21 F-13 but that was only a small batch to get the MiG-21 into IAF service. It was followed by the MiG-21FL, then the MiG-21M, then the MiG-21MF and later on MiG-21bis. Except for the MiG-21 F-13, all others were assembled in India at HAL. Over 650 were assembled in all.

The biggest problem was the lack of drive and desire to modify the MiG-21 locally to improve all the known shortcomings. They would just sit and take whatever the Russians gave them. Of course, the Russians didn't like any design shortcomings being pointed out to them too. The wing design for e.g. was never changed, unlike what the Chinese did with their F-7P. Perhaps it was the socialist mindset of that time.

For India and HAL, there were lower hanging fruits that could have been targeted by HAL but weren't. They kept trying to get the HF-24 Marut follow on from the IAF which never came. For e.g. a new clean sheet design AJT. Instead, they took the Folland Gnat that was being built at HAL and modified it to create the Ajeet which was then used in training roles but was sub-optimal. All in all there was a vicious cycle of the customer (IAF) being disappointed with the quality of the products (HAL) and thus attempting to avoid any major acquisitions that were HAL designed. HAL meanwhile kept blaming the IAF's lack of interest in their attempts to get different programs approved (such as the HF-24 Marut replacement). IAF just preferred off-the-shelf like the Jaguar, MiG-23, MiG-27ML, etc.

And then given the mess that was Indian procurement, despite the IAF shortlisting the Alpha jet and Hawk AJTs, it would take decades to buy them and assemble them in India. In the meantime, the IAF started using it's older MiG-21FLs at MiG Operational Flying And Training (MOFTU) school. So rookie pilots who had just finished training on the Iskra went straight to the MiG-21FL with just ~150 hours of total flying experience. That combination of rookies, aging fleet and a type that was NOT designed to be a LIFT meant a lot of crashes happened that could've been avoided if the Hawk had been purchased 10-12 years earlier.

 

[Gomig-21]

The biggest problem was the lack of drive and desire to modify the MiG-21 locally to improve all the known shortcomings. They would just sit and take whatever the Russians gave them. Of course, the Russians didn't like any design shortcomings being pointed out to them too.

Funny you mentioned that. Egyptian army faced the same exact scenario after the war in 1973. Saad El Din El Shazly who was the COS for the army leading up to and during the war and who organized the entire battle plan of crossing the Suez Canal and was responsible for ordering all the equipment from the Soviet Union wrote in his book that despite the tremendous success of the SAGGER ATWGM used by the infantry and all the Israeli tanks they took out with it, he offered some suggestion for improvements, sort of like constructive criticism at worst. Soviet generals responded by saying "we built all these weapons; we know everything about them". In other words, who was Shazly to give them any advice. Shazly replied "yes, but we fought with them" and that was the end of that. I'm not surprised at all that the IAF's experience with the Soviets was similar.

BTW, Shazly also wrote in his book that a few years prior to the war when he was negotiating for 300 or so MiG-21s to replace the many that were destroyed in 1967, Egypt ended up paying roughly $250,000 per aircraft at that time. Imagine that?!

The wing design for e.g. was never changed, unlike what the Chinese did with their F-7P. Perhaps it was the socialist mindset of that time.

Yeah man, I read in Combat Aircraft Magazine many years ago the pilots who flew the MiG-21 and also the F-7P said the slight wing modification on the F-7P was just enough of an improvement to give it slightly better lift & handling at slower speeds.

That additional surface area being at the outer end of the wings and at that angle also gave the Chinese the ability to add leading edge slats which improved airflow over the wings.

And of course, the other major hampering effect on the early 21s was the lack of an on-board radar. Soviet doctrine of ground control operations dictating headings & incoming threats to the pilots must've made it an arduous and frustrating task in A2A combat. A major disadvantage against more modern enemy aircraft with radars.

And then relying on the MiG-21R for reconning ground targets was introduced with the MF series I believe. Before that they had to perform reconnaissance using either Su-7s or just other 21s. Mishmash mumbalumgum lol.

So rookie pilots who had just finished training on the Iskra went straight to the MiG-21FL with just ~150 hours of total flying experience. That combination of rookies, aging fleet and a type that was NOT designed to be a LIFT meant a lot of crashes happened that could've been avoided if the Hawk had been purchased 10-12 years earlier.

Interesting, even with the M & MFs? They didn't go from academy trainers to the MiG-21UM first? Unless the UM wasn't available at the time.

Also reminds me of a somewhat similar experience the EAF had when the switch from Soviet doctrine to French & particularly USAF doctrine happened. Suddenly even the veteran MiG-21 pilots who transferred to the F-16 had quite a bit of problems and subsequently several incidents. Many bumping incidents during formation flight training, serious close calls and often dangerous aerial collisions from friendly ID issues. The latter was the primary drive to the orange swaths that are on US-built jets in the EAF. They were introduced for the early part of the transition, primarily to aid in ID-ing friendlies in the air and from the ground. Once the doctrine conversion was somewhat completed, the swaths morphed into being a requirement for political reasons.

 

[MirageBlue]

Interesting, even with the M & MFs? They didn't go from academy trainers to the MiG-21UM first? Unless the UM wasn't available at the time.

Also reminds me of a somewhat similar experience the EAF had when the switch from Soviet doctrine to French & particularly USAF doctrine happened. Suddenly even the veteran MiG-21 pilots who transferred to the F-16 had quite a bit of problems and subsequently several incidents. Many bumping incidents during formation flight training, serious close calls and often dangerous aerial collisions from friendly ID issues. The latter was the primary drive to the orange swaths that are on US-built jets in the EAF. They were introduced for the early part of the transition, primarily to aid in ID-ing friendlies in the air and from the ground. Once the doctrine conversion was somewhat completed, the swaths morphed into being a requirement for political reasons.

Sorry I should've mentioned that they did conversion training on the MiG-21UM Mongol trainers and then right after that they went solo on the MiG-21FL at MOFTU.

The details of MOFTU and how it operated are in this excellent article by Phil Camp and Simon Watson on Bharat Rakshak

MOFTU article

For the first two weeks the students study the pilots notes on the aircraft and the standard airfield operating procedures. At the end they have to achieve a 95% pass rate in the exam and if they fail, they get one more chance to pass it. They then progress onto the simulator where they complete several sorties to increase their knowledge on the type.

The initial flying phase lasts for 30 weeks and will include 30 flying training sorties and 48 fighter sorties. Initially the students will complete about 9 sorties, dual in the Mig21U before being allowed to go solo.

During dual training they practice low speed handling and must complete one practice diversion. Regimes covered include circuit training, aerobatics, loose formation flying, medium tactical flying, 2 and 4 ship formations, low level tactical flying with 2 aircraft and 4 aircraft, instrument flying.

Semester 2 commences after 6 months and continues with more advanced flying. The basic principals of ground attack, air combat training, advanced air combat and live firing are taught to the flying officers. 28 sorties are completed in the Mig21U trainer and a further 70 are completed on the Mig 21FL.

During the live firing phase, sorties are flown to the Dolungmurgh Range, 125 kms to the North East of Tezpur. This range is shared with Chabua and Mohanbari, and the aircraft adhere to strict slot times over the target. Weather over the range and at diversion airfields has to be clear before a sortie can depart. Normal weapons carried are the GSH23 cannon loaded with 60 rounds, two UB16 rocket pods each with one 57-mm rocket projectile and 25-lb practice bombs.

Upon completion of semester 2 the students would have flown a grand total of 58 trainer sorties and 118 fighter sorties, amounting to 105-110 flying hours. They are then deemed daytime operational on the Mig21.

 

[MirageBlue]

It seems that No.4 Squadrons 'Oorials' have either been number plated or have converted to the Su-30MKI.

With this, there's just 2 squadrons in the IAF left with MiG-21 BIson fighters, the No.3 Squadron 'Cobras' and No.23 Squadron 'Panthers'.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1719055859895128468

 

[MirageBlue]

MiG-29UPGs on the Eastern front

 

[Archie]

It seems that No.4 Squadrons 'Oorials' have either been number plated or have converted to the Su-30MKI.

With this, there's just 2 squadrons in the IAF left with MiG-21 BIson fighters, the No.3 Squadron 'Cobras' and No.23 Squadron 'Panthers'.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1719055859895128468

The No 4 Sqd Oorials have converted to Su30Mki
This was the 13th Su30MKI sqd raised by IAF,

The reason No 4 sqd was not number plated was because of its history.

Even the remaining 2 Mig21 Squadrons will not be number plated but instead will receive the up coming Tejas MK1A

With 170 Tejas MK1A/B set to be inducted over next 8 yrs , lot of Legacy Mig21 Sqds which were number plated, will be resurrected with these aircrafts

 

[Gomig-21]

Great close-up footage of a Nirbhay cruise missile traveling at subsonic speed on test firing filmed from a IAF Jaguar.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1726608841155207407

 

[NAVDEEP DHALIWAL]

So is birthday still in testing phase or cleared the testing now?

 

[MirageBlue]

The No 4 Sqd Oorials have converted to Su30Mki
This was the 13th Su30MKI sqd raised by IAF,

The reason No 4 sqd was not number plated was because of its history.

Even the remaining 2 Mig21 Squadrons will not be number plated but instead will receive the up coming Tejas MK1A

With 170 Tejas MK1A/B set to be inducted over next 8 yrs , lot of Legacy Mig21 Sqds which were number plated, will be resurrected with these aircrafts

Question is- will they first resurrect earlier number plated squadrons or choose to simply replace the No.3 'Cobras' or No.23 'Panthers' Bisons with the Tejas Mk1A without number plating them.

One can't be sure. No.101 'Falcons' were resurrected with Rafales instead of choosing an existing Bison squadron to equip with them.

We'll find out soon enough. The first Tejas Mk1A will be handed over in February 2024, 3 months from now.