Indian Agni BM Technology origin

[vnomad]

How U.S. Exports Helped Fuel the South Asian Arms Race

India and Pakistan, fresh from testing nuclear devices, are poised to build missiles that could deliver the bomb deep into each other's territory. The United States deplores these developments, but along with other countries, stands guilty of supplying much of the necessary technology.

In fact, India's next generation of nuclear missiles will probably be designed with the help of American-made equipment.

U.S. officials say that in 1996, Digital Equipment Corp. shipped a supercomputer to the Indian Institute of Science in Bangalore, a key missile research site. Supercomputers are the most powerful tools known for designing nuclear weapons and the missiles to deliver them. They can model the thrust of a rocket, calculate the heat and pressure on a warhead entering the Earth's atmosphere and simulate virtually every other force affecting a missile from launch to impact. Because of the billions of computations needed to solve these problems, a supercomputer's speed is invaluable for efficiently finding design solutions.

The DEC computer will come in handy at the Indian Institute of Science. The institute is on the British government's official list of organizations that procure goods and technology for India's missile programs. It develops India's most advanced rocket propellants, guidance systems and nose cones. Its wind tunnels and other equipment analyze rocket fuel combustion and flight performance. It has even been linked in published reports to India's new nuclear-capable missile called the "Sagarika," intended to be launched from submarines.

This is a typical global disarmament/non-proliferation/do-gooder think-tank's article. Though its not very professionally written up. The supercomputer argument is hilarious.

Ask anyone familiar with the Indian Institute of Science and he'll laugh at the implication of this clock and dagger style proliferation happening there. The IISc is to sciences what the IITs are to engineering. Its not as simple as supercomputer = missile technology. There are a hundred other applications for it.

And for the record supercomputers were not a novelty even back then. India developed its first supercomputer in 1991 and several more thereafter.

International Business Machines Corp. supplied the institute with an even more powerful supercomputer. According to IBM spokesman Fred McNeese, IBM installed the supercomputer at the institute's Supercomputing Education and Research Center, which specializes in computer-aided design. The machine operated at 1.4 billion operations per second when installed in 1994, and IBM upgraded it in March 1997 to perform 3.2 billion operations per second and again in June 1997 to 5.8 billion, making it one of the most powerful computers in India.

The PARAM-8000 could do 1 Gigaflop i.e. 1 billion floating point operations per second in 1991. Its successors in the PARAM-series were iteratively more powerful.

The PARAM Padma completed in 2003 could do 1 trillion operations per second.

And IIRC the current PARAM Yuva has a theoretical capacity to perform 54 trillion floating point operations per second.

The pro-export Commerce Department granted a license for the DEC sale, despite the notoriety of the institute as a missile site. Commerce also licensed the original installation by IBM, but IBM performed the upgrades without a license, in apparent violation of the law.

This week, the U.S. Customs Service opened an investigation into the IBM upgrades. It is already investigating IBM for selling a supercomputer to Russia's leading nuclear weapons lab under similar circumstances.

Ahh... so IBM is guilty of proliferation. Shouldn't the investigation in that case have been carried out by the FBI in that case?

The U.S. government requires an American company to obtain an export license if it wants to sell to a bomb-prone nation like India a computer that performs more than 2 billion operations per second. IBM claimed an exception, that allows such computers to be shipped as long as the buyer is not connected to nuclear weapons, chemical weapons, missile or military work. The seller must ensure that the exception applies, which IBM failed to do. McNeese of IBM says only that the company "has no indication that the machine has been used for anything other than university research."

Okay, so we have IBM on record saying that the sold equipment has been used only for university research. I just heard of the Wisconsin project for the first time today, so I confess I'm biased in favour of granting IBM greater credibility.

And there is the case of Viewlogic Systems Inc. of Marlborough, Mass. According to the Journal of Commerce, Viewlogic shipped computer software for designing printed circuit boards to an Indian missile manufacturer on the very day that President Clinton announced sanctions against India for its five nuclear weapon tests.

The Commerce Department approved the sale, despite the fact that the buyer was Bharat Dynamics Ltd. (BDL), a leading entry on the British government's list of Indian missile makers. BDL manufactures and assembles India's single-stage Prithvi missile, which can deliver a nuclear payload about 150 miles, and the two-stage Agni, which can deliver one about 1,500 miles. Both threaten Pakistan's major cities.

Printed circuit boards!!

This is bordering on the absurd. If they'd sold bottled water, that could be construed as proliferation as well since they would have kept Indian scientists refreshed while they were developing these missiles.

Well since BDL wasn't on any restricted list except for the British (why British?) government's list of missile makers, the sale was completely legal.

With better electronic circuits, BDL's nuclear missiles will be more accurate and reliable. The same is true of the antitank and other guided missiles that BDL makes, and advertises in a public catalogue.

How the Commerce Department could approve a sale to India's main missile assembly site remains a mystery. Both Viewlogic and the Commerce Department decline to comment on the sale.

Here's a possibility. The supplied items were not a critical requirement and/or were otherwise available from other sources on the open market. Maybe from Japan or South Korea or Taiwan or even China... making any export restriction meaningless.

This misguided policy of helping India develop missiles is not new. In 1963, the United States began India's missile program by launching a U.S. rocket from India's new Thumba Range, which the United States helped design. Despite his recent claim to being "indigenous," A.P.J. Abdul Kalam, the "father" of the Indian bomb, spent four months in training in the United States. After visiting NASA's Wallops Flight Facility on the Virginia coast, where he saw the U.S. Scout space rocket in action, he returned to India to build a copy.

Veni Vidi Copi.

The U.S. government obligingly supplied data on the Scout's design after a request from the Indian Atomic Energy Commission.The Scout's first-stage rocket is identical to the first stage of India's longest-range missile, the Agni.

Virtually every element of India's nuclear and missile programs has been imported directly or copied from imported designs. The Agni's second-stage rocket motor is derived from a Russian-supplied surface-to-air missile and the Agni's guidance system was developed with help from Germany's space agency.

And this is in the opinion of the missile experts at Wisconsin Project? They've either managed to get access to highly classified details about the IGMDP or they've seen pictures of it and are making connections from their armchairs.

Well lets assume for the sake of argument that the Agni was derived from the SLV which was derived from the ... Scout was it? Does that imply that every element of the Agni-3 IRBM is imported or copied? Or that every element of the under development Agni-5 ICBM will be imported or copied as well.

If one were to subscribe to this brand of hyperbolic, one could claim that every element of the US missile program was stolen or copied since the basis of development was Nazi Germany's V-2 guided rocket.

Sanctions will stop at least some of the exports from the United States. Because of the recent nuclear tests, U.S. law now bars the sale to India or Pakistan of any "goods and technology" controlled by the Commerce Department. Although the White House was quick to apply financial sanctions, it is still deciding how to interpret this export prohibition. It could cost big exporting companies real money. The companies are already lining up to limit the sanctions as much as they can.


The administration is now considering three options. The first is to forbid any item controlled for export to be sold to anyone in India or Pakistan -- no one could buy a military-related item or any item that could help make nuclear weapons, chemical/biological weapons or missiles. Only 1 percent of U.S. sales to India are now controlled for export, so this option would be effective and painless.

The second option is to deny the nuclear and missile items to everybody, but allow private companies in India and Pakistan to buy only conventional military and chemical/biological items. The third option would allow the two governments to buy such items as well. These latter two options would undermine the integrity of the legislation passed by Congress.

What will the president decide? The pro-trade and pro-India forces are leaning on him, and he is bending. He has already hinted that he would be satisfied if India merely promised to sign the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty and to cap its production of nuclear weapon material.

The US has very recently taken both ISRO and DRDO off the restricted list. I bet that cause some teeth gnashing at the Wisconsin Projectworks.

 

[vnomad]

Coming from a guy who is in state of denial. I can not help you kid other then educate you with the reality.
Yet again Wisconsin project is treated like some blog by some one who has no idea what they are talking about.
Go to their website and read "About us" and you will hopefully learn what they are capable of and what they do.

I just checked it mate. Turns out Wisconsin Project was at the forefront of the effort to bring Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction to everyone's notice before AND after the invasion.

We Still Face the Menace of Iraq's Hidden Horrors

By Valerie Lincy and Kelly Motz

The Los Angeles Times
May 22, 2003, p. A13


Saddam Hussein's regime has been deposed, and the world is slowly losing interest in Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. There are even some who suggest the weapons don't exist. But this is dangerous. If they still exist --as much evidence indicates-- those weapons could make their way into the wrong hands. And the time to prevent this is growing short.

Before the Iraq war, chief U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix said Iraq might still possess 10,000 liters of anthrax and 15 times the amount of gaseous gangrene-causing agent that it had declared to the inspectors. Both these deadly items would still be viable today if properly stored. Blix also pointed to new evidence that Iraq could have 6,500 more chemical weapon warheads than previously thought.

And let's not forget that when U.N. inspectors left Iraq in 1998, they had compiled a frightening catalog of Iraq's undeclared poison gas, including almost four tons of missing VX, the deadliest form of nerve gas, and at least 600 tons of ingredients to make more of it. Also unaccounted for were up to 3,000 tons of other agents like tabun, sarin and mustard gas, about 550 artillery shells filled with mustard gas and about 31,000 chemical munitions, both filled and empty.

There's more. A classified CIA report prepared last spring and leaked to the press in November reported for the first time that the agency had "high" confidence that Iraq possessed smallpox. Add to this the mobile biological weapons labs described by U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell before the U.N. Security Council in February. Two or three such trailers side by side could produce enough dried anthrax and botulinum toxin in a month to kill thousands of people. The United States has found only two trailers out of the total of 18 that Powell claims Iraq has. Those two are still being tested to verify what they were used for.

And there is Saddam Hussein's pursuit of nuclear weapons. Iraq never turned over drawings showing its latest nuclear weapons design to the first inspection teams. In 1998, Iraq tried to buy 120 high-precision electronic switches, ostensibly for medical purposes, which are also used to trigger atomic bombs. And though suppliers claim to have provided only eight, sources at the United Nations and in the U.S. government believe that the number supplied was higher.

Not to worry, says Undersecretary of Defense Douglas Feith. In congressional testimony last week he predicted that the process of finding this vast catalog of banned weapons could take "months and perhaps years." Time, the administration claims, will provide a clear picture of Iraq's programs for weapons of mass destruction. Yet time is exactly what we don't have.

Each day brings new stories of looting at sensitive weapons sites in Iraq, disappearing documents and under-resourced search teams, incapable of protecting even the sites we know about. Consider the sprawling Tuwaitha nuclear complex south of Baghdad, the main repository of Iraq's known nuclear material and equipment. Coalition troops have been neither willing nor able to keep looters out. As a result, documents and equipment that could have provided evidence of Iraq's nuclear ambitions have disappeared.

Tuwaitha houses at least 13 metric tons of natural uranium and 1.8 metric tons of low- enriched uranium, as well as significant quantities of cesium, strontium and cobalt. These last three nuclear isotopes would be ideal for use in a "dirty bomb." And further processing of Iraq's partially enriched uranium, in neighboring Iran for example, could produce enough weapons-grade uranium to fuel up to three nuclear weapons.

In April, the New York Times reported that U.S. weapons experts searching an ammunition complex near Karbala found manuals and packaging for two drying ovens imported from Germany, but no ovens. These ovens, said the Times, could be used to process viruses and bacteria for germ weapons. The Times also reported that the team found 11 buried containers with sophisticated lab equipment and seven canisters of cesium in a warehouse. Taken together, these items sketch a suspicious picture that will remain forever incomplete because of looting.

And what of the sites we don't know about? Think back to the period after the 1991 Gulf War when U.N. inspectors discovered the extent of Iraq's hidden nuclear activities. The Iraqis were running a secret program at Tarmiya configured to produce weapons-grade uranium; they were turning out uranium oxide at Al Jesira; and they had a vast nuclear weapon production facility at Al Atheer. Similar unknowns could exist in Iraq today. Our odds of finding them intact are falling by the hour.

To solve the Iraqi weapons puzzle, we need to throw everything we have at the problem, which means more troops for better site security and more inspectors who know what they're looking for. We should also use the experience of the United Nations, which has the best lists of what Iraq had and where it was. In particular, the nuclear inspectors need to get back in as quickly as possible.

As long as uncertainty remains as to the location and quantity of Hussein's mass- destruction arsenal, the threat to our security has not disappeared; it has only shifted. Until these weapons are accounted for, the war to disarm Iraq will not be won.

Valerie Lincy is a research associate at the Wisconsin Project on Nuclear Arms Control in Washington D.C., and Kelly Motz is the Associate Director. They edit the Project's IraqWatch.org web site.

We Still Face the Menace of Iraq's Hidden Horrors

^^^ This is from their IRAQ WATCH project.

They now have an IRAN WATCH project on.

 

[Kinetic]

^^Dude you are one of the oldest members of this forum. Liked your posts.

 

[jerichos]

The "Next Generation" tools have arrived in India!

Must See! These next generation tools combine an electronic display and advanced mechanics

http://www.proceqasia.net/


Wower!

 

[IND151]

good discussion guys

 

[tvsram1992]

Thread starter will die if he / she knows that Indians made worlds first rocket

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Thread starter will die if he / she knows that Indians made worlds first rocket

Sultan Tipu... i thought u hated him?called him a biggot anti hindu and whatnot???

 

[patriot_indian]

this is called Indians self reliance

boss why u forget that u people hve not even taken technology u people have taken ready made from north korea and china. heheh look before u leap . dont try to project others as inferiors look wht u are ,

 

[Quick MIK]

Looks like somebody is trying to give life to a dead thread.

 

[pmukherjee]

You indians are brought up deluded in your pathological lair society.
Kalam went to Sates, he studied 1960s Scout Missile and asked for the blue prints. Scout missile technology is a very part of Agni missile which has mix technology of Soviet SA-2, German, French, systems. Still today india relies heavenly on foreigner technologies like always.

Are you even aware that the ancestor of all long range western and Russian missiles was the German V2 rockets which were grabbed by the victors at Peenemunde after the surrender of Germany? Can the NASA claim that they had no help at all? They had complete V-2 rockets plus many German scientists who came to work for them. The US and Russia have been the pioneers in rocket tech post WW-2. Every one else borrowed/copied/stole from them. Yes we had help. The US supplied Scouts and the sounding rockets may have been the ancestors of the Agni but that was nearly five decades ago. We have built upon what we got, developed new tech, improvised, borrowed where we could not develop on our own and moved on. Our scientists deserve the credit for working tirelessly at this project and when sanctions were imposed on us by the US, they developed new tech which no one would give us. Surely as an educated person, you know all this.

 

[Yaduveer]

Sultan Tipu... i thought u hated him?called him a biggot anti hindu and whatnot???

Tipu sultan was First Indian Nationalist in rudementry form.
Problem with Pakistan is who ever is muslim ,u claim as Pakistani.
Pakistan is not repository of all Muslims.
Any Muslim warrior is claimed as pakistani though he never from Pak territory. Abdali,Gajnavi and Ghauri were Afghani , Babur was Farghana not Pakistan.
If You don't have any Indigenous Hero then stop Renting Hero from Outside.

 

[tvsram1992]

Sultan Tipu... i thought u hated him?called him a biggot anti hindu and whatnot???

Even now Marathas will die for him . He is such a great ruler .
We respect who fought for independence/who are dedicated rulers and you respect who seperated pakistan/muslims

 

[GURU DUTT]

Sultan Tipu... i thought u hated him?called him a biggot anti hindu and whatnot???

respected seneor have you seen "sword of tipu sultan" by sanjay khan

 

[drunken-monke]

This is one of the ugliest thread I have seen on PDF.. On this thread, Former President and father of Indian Missile Tech. Dr. APJ Abdul Kalam has been called liar. This is the thread where efforts of almost 5 decades by Indian Scientist have been dismissed by few senior members.. I think either the member on PDF are more brilliant than these scientist or the members from Pakistan (with all due respect) can not digest the fact of Indians learning and evolving the technology. Tipu sultan was called being hated by Indians.. Its a shame for having such a idiotic comments. PDF has became nothing but a platform of war for Internet warriors from both sides..

Technology can be learned, mastered, evolved, improved, and more importantly incorporated.

For missiles, I feel that Chinese were the pioneers. The gun powder discovery was a significant milestone. Then their improvements I the hands of Tipu Sultan with use of metal in rockets. Then the modern V2 came in to the picture. Every modern missiles are derived from this V2 grand daddy.

So does it means that every one copied from Chinese or Germans....

about super computers, India was denied the tech and hence they developed their first Super computer Param 8000 designed by Vijay P Bhaskar. Now he is developing fletatop (better comp than supercomp) and with this fleet India took giant leap in defence and space programs.. At present India has at least three super computers if not more and fastest is SAGA 220 with a speed of capable of performing at 220000 GFLops. This is the reason why India is able to explore more and more..

Physics is the basis of all inventions... so does it means the basic discovery of physics and other significant discoveries hold the key of Missile and satellite inventions and those who have done work on the missiles just borrowed the technique or stole knowledge??

Think what we are assuming.. Is it always about what we want to present???? Perhaps yes and thats what we see, or rather I say thats what our mind let us see...

 

[LiberalAtheist]

lmfao trolls. Agni technology comes from the vintage indigenous 80's SLV and ASLV made by ISRO

SLV

Agni 1