Indian Agni BM Technology origin

[Myth_buster_1]

then how come our missiles and rockets fail some tests before achieving success if they r not indigenous unlike some others 101 % success rate which even put U.S and Russia to shame

Is this your analogy for indians to convinces themself that the technology is indigenous if the first flight fails?
Indians seriously need to get out of their world of living in illusions of every indian project as being "indigenously" developed.

 

[toxic_pus]

I shouldnt be even bothered with your gutter snip talk display which only portrays yourself and goes to show in what type of low society you were brought up in. Why should i degrade myself by arguing with you in this same manner?

Is it the same person talking who made 'pathological liar' as default definition of Indians? Well, its too late for this pretension.

WRONG.

Not entirely. The point however still holds. That F-7 is reversed engineered MiG-21 and hence no amount of refinement can remove the basic design features of MiG-21. (Btw, some of refinements were even based on original MiG-21 designs 'stolen' from ships bound to North Vietnam.) That is entirely different on many levels, from SLV-3 vis-a-vis Scout.

Or we could say, SLV-3 remains a copy of Scout missile the only difference is its internal systems based on complied western technologies mainly of German and French origin.

And here comes the dichotomy

SLV-3 is not a exact copy of Scout A but few modification were done for Indian specification.

Its quite logical that india could not produce a engine of American equivalent. India did not had technical capability to produce a engine of american equivalent.

...the end product of SLV-3 is different from Scout...

Now if the internal systems are all different from Scout, being 'based' on European systems, how is it then a 'copy' of Scout when even externally SLV-3 is different from Scout, in total length, launch weight, stage weight, dimension and burn time, L/D ratio, propellant, payload capacity and apogee (if following your diktat Scout A is compared)?

You have in fact just proved, once again, that internally as well as externally SLV-3 is not similar to Scout, let alone a copy.

 

[toxic_pus]

The argument from our Indian friends goes like this: If Indians copy and make duplicates then it is still "indigenous". But not so when Pakistanis do the same.

The Industrial revolution didn't exactly start in India or Asia, nor did nuclear and missile technology. It came from Europe. And the Asians learned from Europe. Many foreigners, including Indians and Pakistanis and Chinese, who are educated and live and work in the United States and Europe acquire new knowledge here, and some of them return home to share it with their fellow countrymen.

Can you please name an Indian equivalent of Dongfeng. Or Nodong. Or A.Q.Khan.

 

[Udhaya]

He is having a habit called SELECTIVE READING.

Don't waste ur time.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Not entirely. The point however still holds. That F-7 is reversed engineered MiG-21 and hence no amount of refinement can remove the basic design features of MiG-21. (Btw, some of refinements were even based on original MiG-21 designs 'stolen' from ships bound to North Vietnam.) That is entirely different on many levels, from SLV-3 vis-a-vis Scout.

Hypocrisy at its best. So if J-7E with redesigned Delta wings, different lining of gun, different engine with more thrust, New avionics which did not even existed in Mig-21F, new radar is still in your part of the world of denial a reverse engineered product while SLV-3 which is almost the same as Scout Missile in design and in cooperates French German systems rocket technologies etc is wtill a Indian "indigenous" product? lol
Looks like you are just having some hard time accepting something that is beyond the acceptance of indian ego.

Now if the internal systems are all different from Scout, being 'based' on European systems, how is it then a 'copy' of Scout when even externally SLV-3 is different from Scout, in total length, launch weight, stage weight, dimension and burn time, L/D ratio, propellant, payload capacity and apogee (if following your diktat Scout A is compared)?

First you tell me how is J-7E a reverse engineered product when the design is not the same, avionics, radar are not the same, engine performance is not the same, flying performance is not the same? And then tell me how is SLV-3 a indian "indigenous" product when the design is almost the same, guidance systems, all electronic inboard and engines are European mostly French and German origin?

You have in fact just proved, once again, that internally as well as externally SLV-3 is not similar to Scout, let alone a copy.

It only proves that you are still in denial. SLV-3 is not Indian "indigenous" R&D product.
Basically J-7E is more "chinese" then SLV-3 is indian.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

He is having a habit called SELECTIVE READING.
Don't waste ur time.

Coming from a guy who is in state of denial.

 

[indian_warrior]

Your flawed analogy only suites your fellow Indian members ego who are still in denial that india virtually develops everything "indigenously".

You are right, we don't have scientist like A Q khan. so no indigenous tech(pakistani meaning).

 

[noksss]

i dont find any mistake by posting my comments in Caps
a simple question for u i have said the difference between slv-3 and scout in different stages so if u have understood my point try to answer my comments about the different fuel used in slv-3 instead of talking about CAPS

 

[toxic_pus]

Hypocrisy at its best. So if J-7E with redesigned Delta wings, different lining of gun, different engine with more thrust, New avionics which did not even existed in Mig-21F, new radar is still in your part of the world of denial a reverse engineered product while SLV-3 which is almost the same as Scout Missile in design and in cooperates French German systems rocket technologies etc is wtill a Indian "indigenous" product? lol
Looks like you are just having some hard time accepting something that is beyond the acceptance of indian ego.

F-7E is one model in a long series of F-7s preceding its development. F-7E didn’t just come into being out from vacuum. The original F-7 was a licensed/reverse engineered product. Incremental development on this F-7, ultimately resulted in F-7E and many other models after it. I will repeat what I had said earlier. The refinements like redesigned wing or HOTAS etc. are all indigenous, as long as these refinements are themselves not reverse engineered or stolen. But the basic framework, within which these refinements are made, is still F-7 and it being a copy of MiG-21, F-7E is still a copy of MiG 21, with Chinese bells and whistles.

Anyway, you can’t just pick a model number at random and compare it to some other older models and claim it to be different. You can’t even compare between older and newer models within the same family. MiG 21 ‘Bison’ can’t be compared to MiG 21F, F-16 Block 1 can’t be compared to F-16 Block 60 for obvious reasons. Here you are comparing MiG 21 circa 1960s to F-7 circa 90s. If a comparison has to be made then compare F-7, the original and first in the long line of F-7s, to MiG-21F from which it was copied. Comparing F-7E to MiG-21F is like comparing PSLV-XL to Scout.

Now compare this to the birth and growth of SLV-3. No Scout was sold to India to be license produced. No Scout was ever reverse engineered by India. No Scout ‘design’ or technology was ever transferred beyond what was already available to every other country (and even then only ‘technical reports’ on these designs were transferred). Unlike F-7E which was a result of series of developmental work on a reverse engineered plane and numerous other models preceded it, SLV-3 was in fact the first in the series of other SLVs like ASLV, PSLV and GSLV.

I had remarked in an earlier post (now deleted by a hyperactive mod) that SLV-3 is an amalgam of various technologies gleaned from a variety of countries. However, it was an indigenous effort that had wedded these technologies to each other and also to indigenously developed systems. The rocket body, propellants and various engine components were produced indigenously through indigenous R & D. India did receive generous helping hand from various countries. But that doesn’t take away the fact that it was an indigenous effort that had brought into life, something tangible like SLV-3 out of something abstract like limited experience in building and shooting sounding rockets and general understanding and knowledge about satellite launch vehicles and its various sub-systems. It is this toil involved in the journey from the abstract to the tangible, which makes SLV-3 indigenous.

Comprende?

First you tell me how is J-7E a reverse engineered product when the design is not the same, avionics, radar are not the same, engine performance is not the same, flying performance is not the same? And then tell me how is SLV-3 a indian "indigenous" product when the design is almost the same, guidance systems, all electronic inboard and engines are European mostly French and German origin?

F-7E itself is not a reverse engineered product. It is a legacy product, resulting from developmental work on a reverse engineered product. Had there been no F-7, there wouldn’t have been any F-7E. Had there been no MiG-21, there wouldn’t have been any F-7. Now apply this test on SLV-3. Can you honestly say that had there been no Scout there wouldn’t have been any SLV-3?

Again, it is the ‘almost same’ part that I am trying to figure out and asking you repeatedly to explain. Which part is same as Scout. Yes SLV-3 visually resembles Scout. Yes it is a long narrow tube, just like Scout, filled with a payload at the top, propellant in the middle and motor at the end. Yes, it has four stages just like Scout. And, yes both use solid fuel. What else is similar? Instead of such ballpark similarities can you please narrow down the similarities to specific system/sub-system etc.

Funny part is that you have gone from ‘100% copy’ to ‘different’ then back to ‘copy’ to ‘almost same’. Now decide what it is and stick with it already.

It only proves that you are still in denial. SLV-3 is not Indian "indigenous" R&D product.
Basically J-7E is more "chinese" then SLV-3 is indian.

OK. If you say so.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

You are basically coming up with the same remark with different angle which as already been proved wrong.

F-7E is one model in a long series of F-7s preceding its development. F-7E didn’t just come into being out from vacuum. The original F-7 was a licensed/reverse engineered product. Incremental development on this F-7, ultimately resulted in F-7E and many other models after it. I will repeat what I had said earlier. The refinements like redesigned wing or HOTAS etc. are all indigenous, as long as these refinements are themselves not reverse engineered or stolen. But the basic framework, within which these refinements are made, is still F-7 and it being a copy of MiG-21, F-7E is still a copy of MiG 21, with Chinese bells and whistles.

Exactly. The point here is to demonstrate that without the original platform J-7E wont exist however is not a exact copy of Mig-21F and same applies for SLV-3 which is based on Scout design.

Anyway, you can’t just pick a model number at random and compare it to some other older models and claim it to be different. You can’t even compare between older and newer models within the same family. MiG 21 ‘Bison’ can’t be compared to MiG 21F, F-16 Block 1 can’t be compared to F-16 Block 60 for obvious reasons. Here you are comparing MiG 21 circa 1960s to F-7 circa 90s. If a comparison has to be made then compare F-7, the original and first in the long line of F-7s, to MiG-21F from which it was copied. Comparing F-7E to MiG-21F is like comparing PSLV-XL to Scout.

I think you did not comprehend what was the point.
Again answering to your irrelevant points. You can not compare technical advantage of Mig-21 bison with Mig-21F and F-16 block 60 with block 1. However the point remains the same, without the original development neither of the latest model or upgraded Mig-21 Bison and F-16 block 60 would exist.
A little modification to the original Scout Missile design does not change the fact SLV-3 is based on Scout design. And then I have already shown the prove that SLV-3 internal systems are based on foreigner technologies most French and German origin. And my point here is to raise the fact that SLV-3 is not indian "indigenous" R&D and designed product.

Now compare this to the birth and growth of SLV-3. No Scout was sold to India to be license produced. No Scout was ever reverse engineered by India. No Scout ‘design’ or technology was ever transferred beyond what was already available to every other country (and even then only ‘technical reports’ on these designs were transferred). Unlike F-7E which was a result of series of developmental work on a reverse engineered plane and numerous other models preceded it, SLV-3 was in fact the first in the series of other SLVs like ASLV, PSLV and GSLV.

WRONG. Here is the little misconception in you. SLV-3 was not sold to indian thats right however designs of Scout were transferred to India which was the base of SLV-3 development.
I have already refuted to many members here who asked the same question over and over again when the answer was available very clearly. However to make my point stronger i will post it again.

In 1963-64, he spent four months in training in the United States. He visited NASA's Langley Research Center in Virginia, where the U.S. Scout rocket was conceived, and the Wallops Island Flight Center in Virginia, where the Scout was being flown.

So if SLV-3 was a "indigenous" indian design then why would India be interested so deeply in Scout Missile program and later produce a missile that was the carbon copy of Scout?

Soon afterward, in 1965, the Indian government asked NASA how much it would cost and how long it would take to develop an Indian version of the Scout, and whether the United States would help. NASA replied that the Scout was "available for purchase in connection with scientific research," but warned that "transfer of this technology would be a matter for determination by the Department of State under Munitions Control."

The rocket body, propellants and various engine components were produced indigenously through indigenous R & D.

Wrong! Simply the engines and components that you are talking about would have not existed simply because of foreigner R&D.

Now apply this test on SLV-3. Can you honestly say that had there been no Scout there wouldn’t have been any SLV-3?/QUOTE] Yes its a fact that had their not been 4 stage Scout their would be no SLV-3 with foreigner technologies.

Again, it is the ‘almost same’ part that I am trying to figure out and asking you repeatedly to explain. Which part is same as Scout. Yes SLV-3 visually resembles Scout. Yes it is a long narrow tube, just like Scout, filled with a payload at the top, propellant in the middle and motor at the end. Yes, it has four stages just like Scout. And, yes both use solid fuel. What else is similar? Instead of such ballpark similarities can you please narrow down the similarities to specific system/sub-system etc.

You are basically coming up with different angles no need to reply any further when your claim has already been refuted.

Funny part is that you have gone from ‘100% copy’ to ‘different’ then back to ‘copy’ to ‘almost same’. Now decide what it is and stick with it already.

When where? when did i say "100%" copy? stop altering other people's words to suite your ego.

 

[aks]

why u guys are debating with these little professors they will never accept anything

 

[jbond197]

When where? when did i say "100%" copy? stop altering other people's words to suite your ego.

Ok finally you agree that SLV3 is not exact copy of scout. But now lets go back and check what wisconsin project report stated.

it said "SLV3 was an exact copy of the Scout"

So here goes the credibility of the wisconsin project report, you based your thread on, down the trash bin.

Feeling sorry that you had put so much effort and take so much pain just to defend a garbage report.

 

[zagahaga]

bashing growler? very good .... dont mined he has too much of an ego issue

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Ok finally you agree that SLV3 is not exact copy of scout. But now lets go back and check what wisconsin project report stated.

it said "SLV3 was an exact copy of the Scout"

So here goes the credibility of the wisconsin project report, you based your thread on, down the trash bin.

Feeling sorry that you had put so much effort and take so much pain just to defend a garbage report.

The thread is beyond your brain technical level to comprehend. Such posts that you just demonstrated only reflects indian state of denial mentality. Indians are known for interrupting words out of context if it does not satisfy their ego. As for your bogus post. Let me clear one thing for you. India asked for technical assistance for Indian version of Scout missile from America thus the design is 100% American based on Scout. Try asking for some assistance from some one who is smart enough to help you out in reading the pages and hopefully you will be able to educate yourself.

 

[jbond197]

The thread is beyond your brain technical level to comprehend. Such posts that you just demonstrated only reflects indian state of denial mentality. Indians are known for interrupting words out of context if it does not satisfy their ego. As for your bogus post. Let me clear one thing for you. India asked for technical assistance for Indian version of Scout missile from America thus the design is 100% American based on Scout. Try asking for some assistance from some one who is smart enough to help you out in reading the pages and hopefully you will be able to educate yourself.

hmm Getting personal.. that's another sign of a Looser ...

Now what did i interpret wrong tell me... you learnt from all the information provided by my learned friends here and you yourself agreed finally that SLV3 is not exact copy of Scout isn't it?

But the report states otherwise so obviously one has to be wrong.

Anyways don't worry I know you have major ego issues and everybody knows that. I know it has hurt your ego so much that you fell down to personal attacks.

Well whatever makes you happy...