India will be forced to Kashmir just like US in Afghanistan: Hafiz Saeed

[JayAtl]

as long as ISI is here, we are protected well enough......

Hmmmm... if we had the chaos and bombing every week in the US - and our CIA performed as such, everyone would be sacked.

 

[Commander T]

dear talon do you really think thanks mean to me ? its been years of bans thanks likes disklikes infractions warnings and bla bla but i am still serious . we have terror and balouchistan problem ? if you believe its supported by india then better go to table and solve kashmir for save mainland for hell sake .

sir, i know u r senior than me and have much more knowledge, but i sincerely believe that without kashmir there is no pakistan. this is not an emotional statement....... you will experience it with in next couple of decades. there are always tough times in the history of great nation, and one thing that history has told me is that great nations never born naturally ,they are made by great, brave and determined people. you remember russia, hitler brutually defeated them and defeated them to an extent that they were about to loose their capital moscow, but those russians that were far inferior in technology than NAZI germany they stood there, but did not loose hope.... it is said (in documentries) that in battle of stalin gaurd russians were in a condition that they knew that there in certain death if they cross a particular (i forgot which) point but they in number of thousands, group after group, crossed that point with much inferior weapons and they died but they did not let germany capture their positions. it is said that if germans were able to capture those positions there would have been no russia and england by now...same is with us ,a powerfull enemy (indians don't be happy you are not alone) is trying his best to finish our nation and coutry but it is on us, what we do. either we are like mughals who jsut for the sake of keeping their wealth and kingdom keep on making compromises and in the end they had their princes,s head on their own doors.......... or we are like no one else in the history who will stand, and rise for their nation and their country and will made or atleast lay foundation of civilization that will one day lead the human civilization to its peak...... we have lost our brothers against these talibans and indian and many more internal and external enemies but the question is , is it te point that now we should give up.........is it the time that we should betray the blood of our elders and or shaheeds, should we give up......? i am very emotional about my country but i will never call myself pakistani again in my life if pakistan gave up its one more inch of land, just one more inch..........kashmir is ours and it will be ours..........

Hmmmm... if we had the chaos and bombing every week in the US - and our CIA performed as such, everyone would be sacked.

if your were in pakistan,s situation economically and you had 2 super power nato and usa supporting TTP on one side and your eternal enemy on other , while you are fighting your traitors and taliban inside your country............ there would have been no USA. believe me i am not emotional right now....

 

[JayAtl]

if your were in pakistan,s situation economically and you had 2 super power nato and usa supporting TTP on one side and your eternal enemy on other , while you are fighting your traitors and taliban inside your country............ there would have been no USA. believe me i am not emotional right now....

I don't think you are getting emotional, I know the conspiratorial world you live in... Why did you stop at TTP being supported by the US? you have at least 10 others you could have put on us...

 

[Commander T]

I don't think you are getting emotional, I know the conspiratorial world you live in... Why did you stop at TTP being supported by the US? you have at least 10 others you could have put on us...

hey senior, go get some fresh air, if you are trying so say that khad is such an efective organization to manage to engage ISI alone then i think u r a genius..... and if you think that fazal ullah can live in a allied forces controled province without being detected at all or if you think that ttp,s leadership can meet khad and raw agents and cia is not informed of that or if you think that either khad or raw alone are eligible enough, based on their experience with taliban or afghanistan, to engage pakistan army in our own tribal area so effectively or if you think that ISI is dumb enough that she is been feed by all the wrong information about RAW, KHAD and CIA support to TTP, then i think you should present your name for nobel prize for out of the world ginuess....

 

[JayAtl]

hey senior, go get some fresh air, if you are trying so say that khad is such an efective organization to manage to engage ISI alone then i think u r a genius..... and if you think that fazal ullah can live in a allied forces controled province without being detected at all or if you think that ttp,s leadership can meet khad and raw agents and cia is not informed of that or if you think that either khad or raw alone are eligible enough, based on their experience with taliban or afghanistan, to engage pakistan army in our own tribal area so effectively or if you think that ISI is dumb enough that she is been feed by all the wrong information about RAW, KHAD and CIA support to TTP, then i think you should present your name for nobel prize for out of the world ginuess....

germany is lucky to have you...

 

[HRK]

Before to respond to your post, I believe you would agree with me to have a common grounds on which we should compare data for both countries, as you are using an Indian site ‘South Asian Terrorism portal’ as your basic data source while I am using ‘Global Terrorism Data Base’ maintained by U.S Homeland Security and University of Maryland.

Both data bases have their pros and cons like

• SATP have no data available before 2003 for Pakistan
• GTD have no data available after 2012
• GTD shows accumulative number of Incidents
• SATP shows only number Fatalities

So I decided to use all available data for the period of 2003-2012 in a single table which can be used as a base for our further discussion.

For population size of both countries I used Google Public Data. Hope you would have no issues in this regards.

General Data Tabel for India 2003-2012

General Data Tabel for Pakistan 2003-2012

The essences of all your arguments are

• 'India is better off because of the bigger population than Pakistan.

( In this way you are ignoring the a basic fact that having a bigger population have its own benefits ..... bigger the denominator smaller the output ..... )

• Actual numbers have no importance even if one country is enjoying stable Social & Political conditions while other is in State of War, so you are taking the liberty to ignore the different Social & Political condition of Pakistan due to WOT

( I can also take a liberty to ignore the figures on per-capita bases due the different social and political environment in both countries, but I preferred to add a column of 'Fatalities per million' ...... )

Not really.. Just pointed out that your statement of comparing incident numbers in India and Pakistan and showing India only marginally better is flawed because of 3 main reasons..

1. India's population being almost 6-7 times that of Pakistan and still showing marginally lesser numbers of incident actually translates to India being better of by 7-8 times on a per capita incident basis (No comfort there though since ideally the incidents should be zero)

2. Comparing Incidents is really not a true barometer since it equates an adivasi shooting an arrow thru a police man and a suicide bomber blowing up a church killing 80 people

3. Finally, While the total annual casualties in Pakistan since 2005 have increased from 648 to 5379, In case of India they have decreased from 3200 to 884 ... This more importantly shows the trend both countries are following wrt terrorist violence.

for your first point dear its shows a mentality that one has not be worried about the number of hunters as they are less as compare to number of target ignoring the fact that number of Hunters or in Indian perspective number of incidents are increasing from 196 in 2003 to 609 in 2012 or 310.714% growth in ten years, average casualties in these incidents for the period of 2002-2012 are 11.40 per incident

On the other hand, average fatalities per incidents in Pakistan for the period of 2003-2012 are 10.11

for your second point my dear I would really like learn that who an 'Adivasi' is proving himself more dangerous than a suicide bomber, comparing the average fatalities per incidents ..... ???

BTW out of 5,161 incidents in Pakistan for the 2003-2012, 284 were suicidal attacks

For your third point compare the first half i.e.2003-2007 first

points to be observed here:

1. Total Fatalities: India 14,988, Pakistan 6,769
2. Civilian Fatalities: India 5,416 , Pakistan 3,135
3. Average Fatalities per Incident: India 19.94, Pakistan 10.17

Now compare second half of the period 2008-2012 with first half 2003-2007, only for India

points to be observed here:

1. Total number of Incidents increased from 767 for first five years of 2003-2007 to 3,089 for the period of 2008-2012
2. This indicates 402.73% growth in the number of Incidents and you claim it as decreasing trend.
3. Decline in total number of Fatalities could be a temporary phase as the numbers of attacks are increasing
4. And rate of neutralizing Terrorist for every single Security force personal decreasing from 358.86% in 2003-2007 to 260.84% in 2008-2012. For Pakistan these rates are 200.08% & 629.65% for respective periods

Will try my best to help you with your doubts.. But personally I believe ignorance is less to do with your place of education and more to do with the mental make up and the society in which that person spends his early years..

Agreed ..... and as a thumb rule it is applicable to both side ......

Fair point. I have in this post now compared India and Pakistan in last 8 years (2005 onwards) where the figures are about 18000 for India and about 49000 for Pakistan . Given the population difference, this shows the per capita terrorism impact in Pakistan is close to 20 times that of India (49000*7/18000)
Pakistan, 26870 terrorists out to 50631 casualties
India, 11812 terrorists out of 24522 casualties..

Using the population to calculate the per capita impact, can only help you to deny the existence of an evil or to portray less fatal scenario rater than gauging the true degree of danger, as in population an 'Adivasi' and a highly trained and motivated terrorist' are equal.

You are making the same mistake here by failing to realized that :

• Out of 17,273 total fatalities in India during 'your preferred period' 53.68% (9,273) were civilian and security personal's casualties combine

• While in Pakistan combined civilian and security personal causalities stands at 43.53%

More of less similar ratio.. Add to the fact that Pak security apparatus is using gunships, Fighter bombers and heavy atry and APCs in their operations, this kind of flips the comparison on the head..

My Dear at this stage I would ask you to concentrate the two columns of 'Fatalities per million' & 'Avg. Fatalities per incidents' in general data table of both India & Pakistan posted above.

In Pakistani Table you will observe that fatalities per million and Avg fatalities per incidents is increasing, which indicates the level of Planing, Training, Operational execution of terrorist attempts and the professionalism of their 'Handelers'. We are not fighting against the bunch of unorganised, undisciplined groups, they are in fact well trained militia which are certainly not having homegrown elements at their strategic positions. So the use of available resources should not be questioned. BTW if you have not noticed you need to know after Operation Rah-e-Nijat no full fledged military operation is conducted.

On the other hand data suggest that India is not having any of this sort of problem but 53.68% civilian and security personal casualties (combined) indicates less efficiency of security apparatus.

Pakistan, as a source of terrorism is no longer depends on the same being implied and is mostly accepted as a basic truth across most countries in the world... And the key distinction here is that Pakistan is the country which acts as a source of terrorism to other countries, more specifically India where as the home grown terrorist outfits in India are mostly restricted in their activities domestically.. And there in lies the distinction.

I hope you will try to put some data to support your argument rather than following a famous quote 'tell a lie enough times and it becomes the truth' as official and International data does not support your argument.

 

[Commander T]

germany is lucky to have you...

thanks ,i know what u mean but i am not an ultra nationalist or extremist or a conspiracy theorist............

 

[HRK]

wow 33 Inidans kay thanks jeet liyea @Imran Khan

Haar aik friend Zaroori hota hai ..........

 

[Shatterpoint]

Don't any of you people understand what is going on here, China is trying to create more problems between India and Pakistan, China know that if India and Pakistan who are blood brothers get along China will be finished. China is just stoking the fire, with all the other problems China is playing the game and making sure both India and Pakistan continue to fight.

 

[karan.1970]

The essences of all your arguments are

• 'India is better off because of the bigger population than Pakistan.

( In this way you are ignoring the a basic fact that having a bigger population have its own benefits ..... bigger the denominator smaller the output ..... )

Not really. The crux of my argument focusses around the concept of per capita. Just like comparing just the GDP of 2 countries, one 7 times larger than the other is not a right measure, and we use per capita GDP for normalizing the variation in size, the same applies here..

• Actual numbers have no importance even if one country is enjoying stable Social & Political conditions while other is in State of War, so you are taking the liberty to ignore the different Social & Political condition of Pakistan due to WOT

( I can also take a liberty to ignore the figures on per-capita bases due the different social and political environment in both countries, but I preferred to add a column of 'Fatalities per million' ...... )

WOT is a simple excuse Pakistan uses to defend the state it finds itself in. This is no external war in which Pakistan is participating in. Its your own home grown terrorists that are hitting your civilian and military targets within your own country. Its no different than India declaring a war on Maoists and start discounting fatalities in that theater as war casualties..

for your first point dear its shows a mentality that one has not be worried about the number of hunters as they are less as compare to number of target ignoring the fact that number of Hunters or in Indian perspective number of incidents are increasing from 196 in 2003 to 609 in 2012 or 310.714% growth in ten years, average casualties in these incidents for the period of 2002-2012 are 11.40 per incident

On the other hand, average fatalities per incidents in Pakistan for the period of 2003-2012 are 10.11

Oops.. You may want to calculate again..


The average casualties per incident figure for India is 6.12 and for Pakistan is 8.74.. Looks like you got your mathematics concepts all jumbled up

for your second point my dear I would really like learn that who an 'Adivasi' is proving himself more dangerous than a suicide bomber, comparing the average fatalities per incidents ..... ???



BTW out of 5,161 incidents in Pakistan for the 2003-2012, 284 were suicidal attacks

Since your calculations are incorrect, the above point holds no merit..

For your third point compare the first half i.e.2003-2007 first







points to be observed here:

1. Total Fatalities: India 14,988, Pakistan 6,769
2. Civilian Fatalities: India 5,416 , Pakistan 3,135
3. Average Fatalities per Incident: India 19.94, Pakistan 10.17

Now compare second half of the period 2008-2012 with first half 2003-2007, only for India





points to be observed here:

1. Total number of Incidents increased from 767 for first five years of 2003-2007 to 3,089 for the period of 2008-2012
2. This indicates 402.73% growth in the number of Incidents and you claim it as decreasing trend.
3. Decline in total number of Fatalities could be a temporary phase as the numbers of attacks are increasing
4. And rate of neutralizing Terrorist for every single Security force personal decreasing from 358.86% in 2003-2007 to 260.84% in 2008-2012. For Pakistan these rates are 200.08% & 629.65% for respective periods

I am almost sure you are taking cherry picking lessons from an esteemed Pakistani blog writer who is now not very visible on this forum.



Instead of being too anal about the numbers, a simple eyeballing will tell you the following

1. Average fatalities in an incident for India has been dropped from 18.89 in 2003 to 1.32 in 2012. This tells you that the much touted (by you) increase in incidents is actually incidents of individualistic nature or incidents where there are zero fatalities.

2. So Net Net, for India, in last 10 years

a. Fatalities per incident decreased from 18.89 to 1.32 (95% reduction)

b. annual fatalities decreased from 3702 to 803 (80% reduction)

c. Fatalities per million population decreased from 3.38 to 0.64 (82% decrease)

On the other hand, for Pakistan



a. Fatalities per incident dropped from 6.52 to 3.77 (43% reduction)

b. Annual fatalities increased from 189 to 6211 ( 3200% increase)

c. Fatalaties per million increased from 1.24 to 34.66 (2700% increase)
Make whatever of that

Using the population to calculate the per capita impact, can only help you to deny the existence of an evil or to portray less fatal scenario rater than gauging the true degree of danger, as in population an 'Adivasi' and a highly trained and motivated terrorist' are equal.

Meh.. Think again.. you have no idea of per capita impact it seems.

You are making the same mistake here by failing to realized that :

• Out of 17,273 total fatalities in India during 'your preferred period' 53.68% (9,273) were civilian and security personal's casualties combine

• While in Pakistan combined civilian and security personal causalities stands at 43.53%

My Dear at this stage I would ask you to concentrate the two columns of 'Fatalities per million' & 'Avg. Fatalities per incidents' in general data table of both India & Pakistan posted above.

In Pakistani Table you will observe that fatalities per million and Avg fatalities per incidents is increasing, which indicates the level of Planing, Training, Operational execution of terrorist attempts and the professionalism of their 'Handelers'. We are not fighting against the bunch of unorganised, undisciplined groups, they are in fact well trained militia which are certainly not having homegrown elements at their strategic positions. So the use of available resources should not be questioned. BTW if you have not noticed you need to know after Operation Rah-e-Nijat no full fledged military operation is conducted.

On the other hand data suggest that India is not having any of this sort of problem but 53.68% civilian and security personal casualties (combined) indicates less efficiency of security apparatus.

Given that Pakistan military is using helicopter gun ships and jet bombers and heavy artillery to combat the terrorists, the ratio of Pakistani army folks being killed would definitely be better than their indian counter parts who are taking on the terrorists in a more one on one model to minimize collateral damage like the one we saw when PAF bombed a village and killed many civilians by accident.

Also, your comment about how terrorists are more entrenched and are operating like a military force that can take out Pakistani military bases and air force assets, also depicts the original point that the terrorism related situation is much worse in Pakistan than in India where the terrorists are more rag tag and unorganized.. I fully agree with you on that point.

This sophistication of terrorists in Pakistan and their calibre is exactly why the world feels that nuclear assets of Pakistan are not very safe..But thats a different discussion all together.

I hope you will try to put some data to support your argument rather than following a famous quote 'tell a lie enough times and it becomes the truth' as official and International data does not support your argument.

Just proved you wrong my friend with your own data

 

[jarves]

US army chief was ready to apologise after Salala attack: Pentagon | The News Tribe
we made them apologize after salala attack and they had to take away their general from afghanistan after attack what what about you.........nikal jao mere ghar se aur number chor k jana......
2: Badmashiiiiiiiiiiii
3: i never went to madrass but when i listen to your media i really feel that they teaching them how to tell lory to indian children of ISI.......
4: you forgot 1000 years of muslim rule on india and you forgot those horrifing defeats in that 1000 years and it was us who did not attack you in 1962 when china offered ayub to get back kashmir but idiot ayub did not, but you backstabbed us in 1971........ but never mind sovait union ka khata clear he ab tmhari bari he
5: and you are one of them ..........right ??hahahahahahahaahhahahaha you are damn funny, do you appear in pakistani stage dramas

1-Read the title again Ready to apologise not apologised.....oh i forgot you had your education in Madrassa......
We expelled American diplomat what you did you begged.......and was like mar jao mere ghar se aur number chor ke jana.....
2-Badmashi nahi sach hai Pakistan sirf aids be jinda hai.........
3-Dont lie,And when i listen to your Army i really feel that the fear Raw will divide there nation again just like 1971......
4-Yeah i forgot 1000 years of Muslim rule in Pakistan and those horrifying defeats of Pakistani people and mass rapes and conversions of of Pakistanis and we divided pak again in 1971,thanks for reminding..about your coward army and nation......
5-Nope do you want proof..........
Pakistan goes to beg IMF. | Page 6 - Pakistan Defence
pakistan shamelessly begs for aids.......
6-Bold letters me kyo nahi likh raha hai dar gaya kya........

 

[jarves]

LOL Your Smileys Show You Have Lost Your Mental Balance.Abe Oh Temple Indoctrinated ************************************
Pakistan Ko Failed State Kehne Se Pehle Apne Desh Ki Khabar Lo


BTW Is This What Temples Teach You That It Is OK If Police Get Killed In Chattisgarh But Bad If They Kiled In Mumbai.If This Is Your Level Of Thinking I Can Only Sympthise




It Is Comic How Indians Take Credit For A Victory That Was Handed To Them On A Plate By Our Own Former Countrymen.1971 Set The Precedent For "Cross Border Terror".If You Do It On Behalf Of Bangladeshi Then Do Not Complain If We Do It On Behalf Of Kashmiris


Do You Honestly Think 2014 Is Like 1971.Our Army Is Far Better Than It Was Then and Plus We Now Do Not Have The Liability To Defend A Portion Of Our Country Separated By Thousands of Miles Of Indian Territory.I Am Not An Advocate Of War But The Next Time If You Or Any Indian Actually Thinks It Is Going To Be A Repeat Of 1971 They Seriously Need To See A Psychiatrist.

LOL yeah i have lost my mental balance by reading idiotic posts of a madrassa eduucated guy........
Aur mai Hindu nahi hu.........
Pakistan ranks 12 in failed state index and India 78th......Oh i forgot Madrassa educated ciizens of failed terrorist state of Pakistan cant see the difference........

Are you braindead...... I will try one more time.....Terrorists are killing senior police officers In Karachi which is one of the most important cities of Pakistan,If Pakistan is not able to control Karachi how it will control whole of country........,But in India Naxalis are killing people in villages which is also very low) but not in big cities like Delhi ,Mumbai,Kolkata but this thing wont get into your head because its stoo much to expect from madrassa educated people like you.......


Why shouldnt we take credit of 1971.......Our army defeated your army and your 950000 soldiers surrendered......


I am also ot a advocate of war and we willl not be able to repeat 1971 again but this time you whole army will suffender infront of us and we will divide Pak in more than three parts.......

A: now this is what we call diplomacy. if you can understand it..... if we wanted he was ready......right? that means there was something going on behind the doors
b: i never heard that pak president said that pak satillite is advanced than india,s . it was mussharaf who said that we are advance in space tech but later on he accepted that we have lost the space race for now...
C: now don't be shy
D: truth is truth we cannot dey it


yeah, we will make that sure

A-This is not diplomacy this is called begging.....
B-You dont know anything then,your Musharraf claimed that Failed Pak's tech is ahead of India in space bu the reality is Pak cant even dream of these type of tecnologies.....
C-Muslims ruled 1000 years in Pakistan and mass converted Hindus into Muslims of whom you are descendants......
D-Yeah truth is that your brave army surrendered and lost half of country......

 

[JayAtl]

Kashmir will be librated soon...

every time I read topics like this, as somewhat of an outsider looking in- I chuckle.

I have yet to hear how miles and miles of land that is an integral part of India and one which is integral to the Indian psyche, is going to just "poof" be a part of Pakistan.

I guess the Pakistani politburo and military establishment has for last 60 plus years thought they could terrorize( terror group support), into Kashmir becoming a part of Pakistan.

but then I look at the history of India.

Think about it- The British that physically ruled over India tried to terrorize it into submission but ultimately failed to sustain it.

So naturally the question is - How does pakistan think it can terrorize India to just go-- "gosh darn we will just give it up"

... even the grandest of grandest bargain struck up ( Musharraf - MS deal I believe ?) between the two countries- called for India not giving up an iota of Indian side of Kashmir.

i.e. there is a better chance of Tibet being an independent country, better chance of the middle east being converted to Christianity- over Kashmir ever being a part of pakistan... honestly.

 

[Chronos]

Yes I do, mostly with my class fellows , things aren't that bad.
Althogh I have been called a Kaffir, murtad, sickular etc etc by some of my class fellows on the positive side there are many enlightened ones as well.
in my class only 45% had some sympathies for the taliban , and many of the them thought that it was actually Amreeka and bharat who is behind all the suicide bombings
2% percent educated enlightened , who have a clear idea of whats going on
rest of them are the confused lot ...... the sheep.......
One more thing , all this talk of trying to negotiate with these animals have further confused the masses
btw one of my class fellow whose grandfather is a close asscociate of Hafiz saeed told me , yes they do train and send mujahids into Kashmir .

You are 19 years old right?

You are doing pretty good when even 40 year olds don't have the tolerance you have.

In your viewpoint, what misconceptions do you think Indians have of Pakistan?

 

[Last Samuri]

Kashmir has been indian since 1947

The indians fought to get a glacier 20,000 foot in the sky in saichen.

You think they will hand over an entire state.

Kashmir and who ever lives there are indians it wont change.

Did the british leave ireland or the falklands no

did israel give in to arabs NO

I think the pakistani elite now realise this is ambition too far..70 years later the humilation that india gives up land to a much smaller weaker state india might as well CUT ITS THROAT..