India Tops in Illiteracy and Defense Spending

[RiazHaq]

Yup it is higher. China spends 2.5% of GDP on education.
China economy at crossroads after 30 years of reform | Reuters

The point being India has allocated 2x in % of GDP to education than China. and almost 1x in defence.

Time to quit musing now I guess.

For details of Education in India:
UNESCO Institute for Statistics

66.0% of adults and 82.1% of youth are literate

Seems like results are coming in for future.
Moreover since we are dwelling over Pakistan:

UNESCO Institute for Statistics
54.2% of adults and 69.2% of youth are literate
Spends on Education is 2.8% of GDP.

For China:
UNESCO Institute for Statistics

93.3% of adults and 99.3% of youth are literate
% of GDP data has not been updated here. It was 1.9% in 1999. .

Because of lack of transparency and oversight as well as generally poor governance in India, it's hard to tell how much of the budget is actually spent on education. The story is the same in Pakistan, as well. I think China appears to be much better governed, as obvious from the results of higher literacy and better human development levels.

 

[Sam_Bajwa]

deleted !!!

 

[Skeptic]

Because of lack of transparency and oversight as well as generally poor governance in India, it's hard to tell how much of the budget is actually spent on education. The story is the same in Pakistan, as well. I think China appears to be much better governed, as obvious from the results of higher literacy and better human development levels.

Yeah agreed, but would this not put to rest the argument that defence expenditure would have any significant impact on literacy? As mentioned in the earlier linked document, the expenditure was over 3.5% and allocation is 6%. So, if the allocated budget can not be fully spent, how can we expect to pump in more money by cutting defence and then expect a better result. As a percentage of GDP India has things in place, I have already, elimination / reduction in corruption is the key here not cutting other budgets.

please be slightly less biased when replying.

 

[RiazHaq]

Yeah agreed, but would this not put to rest the argument that defence expenditure would have any significant impact on literacy? As mentioned in the earlier linked document, the expenditure was over 3.5% and allocation is 6%. So, if the allocated budget can not be fully spent, how can we expect to pump in more money by cutting defence and then expect a better result. As a percentage of GDP India has things in place, I have already, elimination / reduction in corruption is the key here not cutting other budgets.

please be slightly less biased when replying.

Accountability and transparency are extremely important for a democracy to function for the benefit of the people. Having a huge defense budget and expensive purchases that contribute little to the real security of nation, be it India or Pakistan, also contributes to abuse, fraud and waste.

Looking at India's 2010 budget, more than half of it goes for defense, internal security, paramilitary, intelligence and debt servicing, leaving less than half for everything else, including healthcare, education, nutrition, infrastructure development, etc etc.

So the governments need to do both: seriously evaluate what is being spent where and why? And ensure closer oversight for best results. As Col Nair puts it in his post:

"Defense economics has not been a subject for serious study or debate in Indian academic or military circles. Little or no literature is available with the exception of a few books in the area of defense accounts. Economists and activists have long argued that defense related expenditure needs to be curtailed. Opinion is clearly divided between the developmental lobby and strategic thinkers who wield influence with the political leadership. This paper will attempt to make a realistic assessment of current levels of defense spending by evaluating the efficacy and intensity of military expenditure. Indeed, some arguments have been made before but bear repetition in the current scenario. Parliament passes the defense budget with little or no discussion. The media is largely ignorant or chooses to ignore the issue of defense spending. The view across the political spectrum and indeed the strategic community is that any exercise to limit defense spending amounts to compromising national security and is therefore not a viable consideration. Whilst it is true that development cannot take place in an insecure environment, defense expenditure (DE) in a developing country directly impacts the outlay on social spending. The "guns versus butter" argument is valid especially when the guns (and missiles) are not buying the security the country needs against asymmetrical threats from within and without."

Haq's Musings: India's Arms Buildup: Guns Versus Bread

 

[navtrek]

Buddy, whats the point of your "link" dated back to 1998 ?

Its only said Unicef Study Predicts 16% World Illiteracy Rate Will

Increase

Its had nothing to do with the rest of your post, where are the source

of your data ?

Thanks for asking and there are other sources in the same thread i think 3 or 4 page

Literacy in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[RPK]

Accountability and transparency are extremely important for a democracy to function for the benefit of the people. Having a huge defense budget and expensive purchases that contribute little to the real security of nation, be it India or Pakistan, also contributes to abuse, fraud and waste.

Looking at India's 2010 budget, more than half of it goes for defense, internal security, paramilitary, intelligence and debt servicing, leaving less than half for everything else, including healthcare, education, nutrition, infrastructure development, etc etc.

So the governments need to do both: seriously evaluate what is being spent where and why? And ensure closer oversight for best results. As Col Nair puts it in his post:

"Defense economics has not been a subject for serious study or debate in Indian academic or military circles. Little or no literature is available with the exception of a few books in the area of defense accounts. Economists and activists have long argued that defense related expenditure needs to be curtailed. Opinion is clearly divided between the developmental lobby and strategic thinkers who wield influence with the political leadership. This paper will attempt to make a realistic assessment of current levels of defense spending by evaluating the efficacy and intensity of military expenditure. Indeed, some arguments have been made before but bear repetition in the current scenario. Parliament passes the defense budget with little or no discussion. The media is largely ignorant or chooses to ignore the issue of defense spending. The view across the political spectrum and indeed the strategic community is that any exercise to limit defense spending amounts to compromising national security and is therefore not a viable consideration. Whilst it is true that development cannot take place in an insecure environment, defense expenditure (DE) in a developing country directly impacts the outlay on social spending. The "guns versus butter" argument is valid especially when the guns (and missiles) are not buying the security the country needs against asymmetrical threats from within and without."

Haq's Musings: India's Arms Buildup: Guns Versus Bread

it is open if want info go here and learn

http://education.nic.in/AR/AR2008-09/AR2008-09.pdf


Ministry of HRD

 

[RPK]

^^^
read this it will help you


http://education.nic.in/Elementary/fullfinal1.pdf

 

[RiazHaq]

it is open if want info go here and learn

http://education.nic.in/AR/AR2008-09/AR2008-09.pdf


Ministry of HRD

One static pdf file on a website does not equal transparency or accountability. It requires serious review of where, how and how much money is being spent and what kind of results is it producing.

In US, such functions are performed by congressional oversight committees, public interest groups, interested investigative media etc. I don't see this happening India on defense, education or intelligence operations and spending. Indian democracy is still evolving to deal with the challenges of overseeing huge spending planned for defense and intelligence services.

As Col Nair argues, even the accounting systems used in India are outdated. He argues:

"The British abandoned the system of budgeting being followed in India a few decades ago and adopted a functional system in which accounting is done not only by service but by command functionality. Thus ‘British Forces in Iraq’ is a separate head. The expenditure in each theater of operations is visible and can be assessed. If we need to check the expenditure say in the Siachen sector or on counter-insurgency operations in the Valley, it would need a major exercise. In fact, the first head of account in the British system is ‘Strategic Nuclear Forces’ under which each aircraft, ship, submarine and missile along with warheads and manpower is accounted for.

The current system of budgeting is purely incremental and depends on how much money the Finance Ministry can make available or how much pressure the defence minister can exert on his counterpart in North Block. This has resulted in ad-hoc allotments being made to the services which individually project inflated requirements which are never met. This becomes clear by observing flat-rate increases over the previous year’s budget estimates. There was a 10% hike in the budget estimates for DE for 2008-09 (Rs 105,600 crores) from 2007-08 (Rs 96,000 crores). Similar hikes have been made for several years. The unprecedented hike of 34.2 % this year over last year’s budget estimates is mainly on account of the implementation of the report of the Sixth Pay Commission. Revenue or recurring expenditure takes care of salaries and maintenance and like pensions is a fixed cost. This can be worked out in advance. It would be better if the MoD could indicate the amount of capital funding available service wise for modernization for say five years so that the service chiefs could plan accordingly. This can also take into account the expenditure on internal security and developmental schemes over the same period. This is an exercise which the National Security Council (NSC) should undertake. Larger procurements like the 126 multi-role combat jet aircraft deal could be factored in separately. Ideally, a long term perspective plan should be accepted in advance. Such plans exist on paper but have been ignored by governments across the board since inter-service priorities cannot be decided and resource-mobiliation is always a problem. The plans remain internal projections of the services made to the MoD."

Haq's Musings: India's Arms Buildup: Guns Versus Bread

 

[RiazHaq]

Illiteracy+World.gif (image)

 

[Raje amar]

hi, though this thrade was started as India Bashing (Personal Opinion) i found it very much informative. it increased my knowledge about a lot of unknown things. but still cant stop my self saying, Mr. Haq, this is a Pakistani fourm, you are of Pakistani origin. Please start such thrade with Pakistani statistics. this will help your Country men for increasing general aewarness. Thanks a lot.

 

[Trisonics]

India has been spending more than 3% of its GDP on defense for several years, according in-depth analysis done by Col Nair.

The accounting gimmicks make defense spending look much less than actual. And there is very little oversight of how much money is actually spent by the Indian military.

Indian defense budget's specified limit of 3% of GDP has been observed only by excluding several items like the cost of the MoD and the expenditure on military pensions which by itself amounts to 15% of the total defense outlay. Several other items like the Jammu and Kashmir Light Infantry (JAKLI, a regular regiment of the army consisting of thirteen battalions) and the Coast Guard are also excluded. A substantial part of the cost of the nuclear arsenal and allied systems is excluded. All para-military forces including the ones directly involved in border management are excluded. The Parliamentary Committee on Defense spends most of its time on personnel matters and resolving issues of protocol between the service chiefs and the defense secretary. The Committee looks at DE but beyond stating that DE should be pegged at 3% of GDP, it has nothing substantial to contribute. Clearly, parliamentary oversight and control seems to be missing. For several years, DE in aggregate has crossed 3% of GDP.

Haq's Musings: India's Arms Buildup: Guns Versus Bread

"
The Finance Division of the Ministry of Defence is headed by the Secretary (Defence Finance)/Financial Adviser (Defence Services).The SDF/FADS is tasked with the exercising of financial control over the proposals involving expenditure from the Defence Budget and the Ministry of Defence (Civil) estimates, and with the responsibility for internal audit and accounting of the Defense Expenditure and expenditure from the Civil Estimates.Currently the Defence and Defence related Expenditure is about Rs.95,922 crores (2004-05),including the Civil Estimates ofaround Rs.16,000 crores comprising about Rs.11,000 crores towards Defense Pensions.In the task of internal audit and accounting, the Controller General of Defence Accounts (CGDA) assists the SDF/FADS.Defence planners currently face the task of reviewing programmes in the light of changes, which have taken place at the global level, as well as in the context of specific threats in our own region.The endeavour of the defence planners is to balance the minimum requirements of our Defence Forces and the need to modernize them, without unduly straining the national economy."

Ministry of defense, Govt of India : Ministry of Defence, Govt of India

 

[Trisonics]

I find this article heavily biased.

Firstly, the topic of illiteracy in India related to India's defense expenditure is rubbish. It would have had some credibility if :

1) There was a breakdown in defense budgets of Pakistan and China, Pakistan in particular for obvious reasons.

2) Secondly, The region has not been peace full for a long time.

3) A detailed list of what the budget is being spent on. For example, If India is spending to replace aircraft of the 60s vintage. How in the world is that over spending?

4) India has maintained aggressive growth, in order for it to continue to grow economically it needs to be strong militarily. As mentioned before, there are a large number of people who would be carrying out attacks just to destabilize the economy which would directly reflect in investment.

5) The author does not even make any attempt at either showing the Govt programs that have been put in order to improve literacy nor has there been any mention of how the money allocated for education is spent.

If he had even examined some of the points above or even made a comparison with Indians neighbors, there may have been some credibility. Lastly, is the concern for illiteracy expressed by the author or his "guest"????

 

[Free Tibet]

Accountability and transparency are extremely important for a democracy to function for the benefit of the people. Having a huge defense budget and expensive purchases that contribute little to the real security of nation, be it India or Pakistan, also contributes to abuse, fraud and waste.

Looking at India's 2010 budget, more than half of it goes for defense, internal security, paramilitary, intelligence and debt servicing, leaving less than half for everything else, including healthcare, education, nutrition, infrastructure development, etc etc.

So the governments need to do both: seriously evaluate what is being spent where and why? And ensure closer oversight for best results. As Col Nair puts it in his post:

Haq's Musings: India's Arms Buildup: Guns Versus Bread

Who the hell are you to comment how India should govern, Indians have decided and given their verdict to govt. The GOI is doing its duty it's work and performance has to be judged by Indians.

You should ask for transparency in Pakistan, all knows that your real budget is far more than what is presented to world, your army runs a parallel government and a business empire and foreign militarily aid also add to all this if one adds all this figures the result is shocking for a poor country barely able to meets its end needs.

And also you take India as a enemy if your enemy is doing something wrong you should be feel good about it rather than loose your sleep.

So, better care about your own backyard.

 

[Free Tibet]

India is killing its own people in large numbers through poverty, hunger, lack of sanitation etc.

The worst victims of neglect are the innocent children, two million of whom dies each year from preventable causes.

An estimated 200,000 farmers have been forced to end of their lives of poverty and deprivation in the last ten years.

Indian planning commission member Syeda Hameeda has acknowledged that malnutrition in India is worse than Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Haq's Musings: Is India a Nutritional Weakling?

This is a defense forum, stop trolling.

Mods why are you allowing this in Defense section?

Can we start thread about Poverty, Health, Education, Hunger and Ethnic unrest in Pakistan here?

You will be not get a place to hide your face if Indians starts posting about poverty, hunger, unemployment, ethnic unrest etc. So stop at one or we can have a discussion in Economic Development Section.

 

[RiazHaq]

This is a defense forum, stop trolling.

Mods why are you allowing this in Defense section?

Can we start thread about Poverty, Health, Education, Hunger and Ethnic unrest in Pakistan here?

You will be not get a place to hide your face if Indians starts posting about poverty, hunger, unemployment, ethnic unrest etc. So stop at one or we can have a discussion in Economic Development Section.

In your simplistic mind, you don't see the connection between defense and domestic spending.

Not only is there an impact of India's defense spending on its own people in terms of reduction of rampant poverty, disease and illiteracy, it also impacts decisions by your neighbors, thereby affecting the spending priorities of the entire region.

As Col Nair puts it, "The "guns versus butter" argument is valid especially when the guns (and missiles) are not buying the security the country needs against asymmetrical threats from within and without."