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India Today = Late Qing China

Man use big words. Man write long long.
Must use Nukes to understand.

Even a monkey typing randomly might come up with a coherent response to the points @Joe Shearer brought up, but honestly speaking I like your response better.

Trade or border disputes? Nuke em

PR campaign not going well? Nuke em

Too much chilly in food? Nuke em

Debating logic 101, CPC edition.
:enjoy:

Oops.

I pressed the Post reply button in error.

Always a mistake to prolong a discussion with this kind of intelligence (euphemism warning).
 
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If you read my post, China did defeated Dzungars. The prize is Xinjiang.

This is wearying. If you read my post, you would see that genocide against the Dzungarians did not imply that all their possessions became yours. The Japanese defeat of the British in Singapore did not mean Japanese ownership of Australia.

Oh, sorry, I forgot that I was speaking to a Filipino member. It is well known that they understand what is rationed out to them to understand.
 
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The HK Island never mean to go back to China (Kowloon and New territory needs to return only).

But no one from UK would lay down their life for HK.

This is wearying. If you read my post, you would see that genocide against the Dzungarians did not imply that all their possessions became yours. The Japanese defeat of the British in Singapore did not mean Japanese ownership of Australia.

Oh, sorry, I forgot that I was speaking to a Filipino member. It is well known that they understand what is rationed out to them to understand.
 
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The HK Island never mean to go back to China (Kowloon and New territory needs to return only).

But no one from UK would lay down their life for HK.

Who cares? Other than some overseas non-resident Middle Kingdomers working off their personal guilt? The British built an oasis of freedom and a banking and financial centre out of nowhere, and some peasants have come in, taken it over, because no one from UK would lay down their life for HK and THEY would, and did, and made the mess of it that it is today. The world isn't crying - who cares? - but it is laughing. Just like they are laughing at East Ladakh and the small egos demanding that the Earth stop rotating and pay attention to them, there, right then.

Pathetic.
 
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The HK Island never mean to go back to China (Kowloon and New territory needs to return only).

But no one from UK would lay down their life for HK.

That remark is interesting, on closer inspection.

Typical of every encounter - dictators laying down the lives of conscripts to get what was never theirs.

Does it remind you of something else, someplace else?
 
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What was the point of your post?



As far as I know, the proposal was not available when Rajive Gandhi went to Beijing.



Are we talking about a nation-state or a middle-aged woman about to enter into a period of hormonal disturbances? The embarrassment? The cost? Patriotic? What are you talking about? There were no talks for the intervening 30 years, so what embarrassment was involved? If you are correct (you are not, but let us be hypothetical), if the proposal was kept open for 30 years, what was the desperate urgency to withdraw it?



That is the silliest thing I have read for a long time. Everyone at Bandung had suffered at the hands of the western powers, not just China and India. So there was nothing special about these two countries attending. China was doing nobody a favour by attending; the conference was about non-alignment, and the principals were Nasser, Sukarno, Tito and Nehru. Nehru and the Indians took great care that the Chinese should be accepted by all others; it was not that China was a world leader and had the vast sums of money to fling around that she has today. China had just finished fighting a vicious and bloody war against the forces of the United Nations, and had not got her seat on the Security Council. If you read accounts of the Conference, not propaganda brought out by the CPC, you will find out who did what for whom; the simple question to you is that India did a lot for China, at the Conference and on other occasions during that period. What did China do in return? Other than swell up in jealous rage and decide to teach Nehru a humiliating lesson to satisfy the Chinese leadership's wounded egos?



What did you have in mind instead? That India should go to each neighbour and ask to talk about old times once again? Please read the excellent note by saiyan0321 on the question of boundaries and borders in international law. Furthermore, you may not be aware, but in 1842, there was already a formal agreement between the Tibetan authorities (the Chinese Amban accompanying them had been killed in battle immediately before, that defeat being a major reason for both sides deciding to sit and decide boundaries), and the Treaty of Chushul had been signed between the state of Kashmir and the state of Tibet. Are you suggesting that the British as suzerains of the state of Kashmir and the Chinese of the Qing dynasty should have rejected the treaty and sat down separately and decided once again?

Are you aware that China had no interest in Aksai Chin until the first Chinese military commander in Tibet in 1950 decided to strengthen an old caravan route to Kashgar from western Tibet, and that ever since, China has been frantically digging around for some evidence to show that they owned the land on which that commonly-used caravan route lay? There is no proof to this date, and not one map has turned up from the Chinese side. Naturally; there is not a shred of evidence that justifies the claim.

The point is that India did not overthrow the British; there was remarkably little violence, because the Indian leadership deliberately and consciously chose that route. I know that you will find it difficult to understand this, but the Indian freedom movement leadership negotiated the withdrawal of the British colonists and imperialists, and did so through formal legislation at London, that handed over the entire colony of India to the two Dominions of India and Pakistan.

In these circumstances, what is the point of your question?



LOL.

Are you even aware that to date - up until the 5th of September, 2020, the PRC has refused to produce a single map through the dozens of negotiating meetings that have been held, showing their idea of where the border should run in Ladakh?

Please do your homework first.




Ah, THAT is why, knowing what you would decide 55 years later, you were unable to share with India the nature of your claims on a border that only the Treaty of Chushul dealt with?



I can see that you are well aware of the Chinese family background and Han ethnic roots of Karl Marx, on whose thought the Communist Party of China was founded. That, of course, and your adoption of Russian weapons and acceptance of Russian advisors - not taking into account the relations between the Kuomintang and Germany, first, Britain and the USA next - clearly shows your independence of western or external influences. Down to the MiG 19s and MiG 17s that were used in the Korean War.

Oh, by the way, English is not the Indian official language; it is used alongside Hindi, because we have over 400 languages in use, and it is difficult for us low-IQ Indians to learn all 400 of them; especially dull ones like me, people who know only three to read, write and speak, and another three to speak and read.




Really a silly argument. It merely shows that neither then nor today is there the slightest sincerity in seeking a peaceful solution.



And the zillions of Chinese students, many of whom stay back to take up jobs in critical and security-sensitive technology jobs are unassimilated? What language do they use to speak to their American teachers and colleagues at work? Mandarin? Do they take chopsticks to work to eat at the cafeteria?



There is no need for me or anyone else to remind you that there are huge western music classes and that Chinese classical music is hardly accepted elsewhere in the world. Chinese Opera is; if you have lived in the west, and seen the influence that Indian classical music has there, both north Indian and south Indian, then you might not have made quite such ridicule-worthy assertions.

Many western people are Buddhist and Hindu; does that sound as if India has lost her independence?

As for your defence industry, what would it have been without the famous American technology tool, the photocopy machine?


https://unstats.un.org/unsd/publication/seriesm/seriesm_4rev4e.pdf



Let it close.

If the people and the leadership of China think that their present position of being near the top of the world in all respects is worth burning up in nuclear fire, then such stupid people and leadership deserve to burn. It is a pity that we will also suffer because of this stupidity. There seems to be little alternative.
As far as I know, the proposal was not available when Rajive Gandhi went to Beijing.

Chinese Premier Zhou Enlai first offered this package deal in 1960. But this was not acceptable to New Delhi and India and China went on to fight the 1962 war over the border issue. We have been eyeball-to-eyeball since.

In the interview, Dai said that the deal was offered to Foreign Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee in 1979. The last time it was reportedly offered was during prime minister Rajiv Gandhi’s meeting with Deng Xiaoping in 1988.


 
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That remark is interesting, on closer inspection.

Typical of every encounter - dictators laying down the lives of conscripts to get what was never theirs.

Does it remind you of something else, someplace else?


British tried another "opium war" in 1949s. They got massacre by Chinese.

The fate of HK is sealed.

 
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British tried another "opium war" in 1949s. They got massacre by Chinese.

The fate of HK is sealed.


Yeah, right. Shooting at a frigate navigating a river from shore batteries - what heroics!

Of course the fate of HK is sealed! As some other hyper-mentilating member put it, nobody was willing to lay down their lives for it on one side; there were thousands of conscripts to be pushed into Wolf Warrior mode on the other.

So what was the big deal?
 
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Chinese Premier Zhou Enlai first offered this package deal in 1960. But this was not acceptable to New Delhi and India and China went on to fight the 1962 war over the border issue. We have been eyeball-to-eyeball since.

In the interview, Dai said that the deal was offered to Foreign Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee in 1979. The last time it was reportedly offered was during prime minister Rajiv Gandhi’s meeting with Deng Xiaoping in 1988.



You are mistaken. It was never offered in 1988.

When one side is so thoroughly insincere, it doesn't really matter when something was 'offered', and when it was 'withdrawn'.
 
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British Navy used to sail up Yangtze bomb and bomb when she was not happy with China. killing thousands.

I am proud CPC stop this and kill some British, giving them a lesson.

Long live Mao

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Yeah, right. Shooting at a frigate navigating a river from shore batteries - what heroics!

Of course the fate of HK is sealed! As some other hyper-mentilating member put it, nobody was willing to lay down their lives for it on one side; there were thousands of conscripts to be pushed into Wolf Warrior mode on the other.

So what was the big deal?
 
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Please read the excellent note by saiyan0321

I dont think he can. It was in the Editorial Section and that section isnt open for others.

. The British sent one of its commissions to China in 1846-47 to negotiate a border treaty however China refused. The British would continue to do so repeatedly to secure the region so that they could not be blindsided. For this purpose in 1865, a British surveyor by the name of William. H. Johnson was commissioned to survey and create a suitable demarcation between the Aksai Chin region, princely state of Kashmir, princely state of Hunza and China. The surveyor focused on the forward policy gaining as much land as possible and noted that the Khotan’s border was at Brinjga in the Kun Lun mountains and that the entire Krakash valley was inside Kashmir. This line that he would draw would be called the ‘Johnson line’ and would become one of the three border demarcations that the British India would use during its rule in the subcontinent. The Chinese would not be interested in this demarcation however in 1893 Hung Ta Chen, a senior official at Saint Petersburg, provided a map that was similar to the Johnson line and held the boundary of Xinjiang up to the Raskam Valley also known as Shaksgam valley. The Raksam, also known as the Yarkand River, is sourced directly from the Rimo glacier and then moves north to the foothills of the Kun Lun Mountains after which it turns northwest and receives its waters from the Shaksgam River which also originates from the Rimo Glacier ( as shown in Fig.1).















Fig 1



Un-kashmir-jammu.png









































The Yarkand River flowing from the Rimo glacier (part of Siachen glacier) demarcated as the line between China and the British India to the crest of the Kun Lun Mountains.









The eastern border of the map accordance to the senior official placed the Aksai Chin under the territory of Kashmir. In 1897, the British demarcated the line once more and improved on the Johnson line and this was done by a British military officer named Sir John Ardagh, who proposed a line on the crest of the Kun Lun Mountains, north of the Yarkand River since this was a more defensible area in the event of a Russian invasion of Xinjiang. By this time, China was severely weakened. The line would be called the ‘Ardagh-Johnson line’ and would be used by the British in the future repeatedly. This line placed all of Aksai Chin in the west and the areas bordered by Yarkand River under the territory of the princely state of Kashmir and the princely state of Hunza. The line was used by China as a border on most occasions even though there was no official ratification as the postal atlas of China used the line from 1917 till 1933 and the same for the atlas of the Peking University in 1925.

However in 1896, China began showing interest in the region of Aksai Chin. Despite the maps of Hung Ta Chen, British India, in 1899 proposed a new commission and it was proposed to the Chinese through its envoy named Sir Claude Macdonald. George Macartney, who was serving in as the consul-general in Kashgar suggested a new demarcation which would see the empty areas in-between to be filled by China which would satisfy the Chinese government. This would see Aksai Chin in China and the Lingzhi Tang plains in British India. The border was defined by the British as an effort to recognize the frontier as laid down by its clearly marked geographic features. The work on it began right where the Anglo-Russian commission had stopped in 1895 and the line goes from the little Pamir as it runs south-east, crossing the Karachikar stream at Mintaka Aghazi; thence the main ridge of the Muztagh range. It follows this to the south, passing by the Khunjerab Pass, and continuing southward to the peak just north of the Shimshal Pass. At this point the boundary leaves the crest and follows a spur running east approximately parallel to the road from the Shimshal Pass to the Hunza post at Darwaza. The line turning south through the Darwaza post crosses the road from the Shimshal pass at that point and then ascends the nearest high spur, and regains the main crests which the boundary will again follow, passing through the Mustagh, Gasherbrun, and Saltoro Passes by the Karakorum. In the west, this boundary began well north of the current boundary commencing at the northern point of the Wakhan corridor rather than the southern. From the Kharchanai Pass to the Khunjerab Pass, however, the two delimitations coincide. From the latter pass to the point south of Darband (Darwaza) where the main ridge is joined, the newly-demarcated boundary is situated a considerable distance to the east of the Macdonald line. The southern sector, however, is again identical to the previous demarcation. This can be seen in the Fig.2.













Fig 2





800px-Aksai_Chin_Sino-Indian_border_map.svg.png

















The Macdonald-Macartney line in contrast to the previous delimitations between China and British India. The line would be the partial basis for the border agreement between Pakistan and China.










Fig 3










Lamb, Alastair (1991). Kashmir A Disputed Legacy 1846-1990 (2nd Impression). Oxford University...png


































The Macdonald-Macartney line between China and British India and the modifications witnessed in the later years all the way to the 1963 Sino-Pakistan demarcation.











In 1899, the British Empire would send an envoy with detailed maps and a note highlighting the demarcation however the Ching government gave no reply. This was again brought to head when Lord Curzon in 1904 reminded secretary of state for India John Bodrick that the Chinese haven’t answered the 1899 note that they had sent. One of the biggest problem was that the people of Shamshal in the princely state of Hunza, greatly depended on the valley between the Shamshal pass and the Darwaza for grazing, as can be seen in Fig 3 where the previous Johnson line was far above the Raksam plots and the Muztagh River but the 1899 line had brought the demarcation right at the neck of the shamshal river and Shamshal pass. The declaration of such caused great problems for the princely state of Hunza and the people of Shamshal. Their farming and livelihood was affected and they wanted a solution. The British did not want any conflict in the region and had not yet received any confirmation from the Chinese end. This forced the British to make slight changes to the 1899 line to answer the concerns of Hunza and the people of Shamshal. On 10th August 1905, Lord Curzon sent a map to John Brodrick, indicating the differences between the 1899 line and the newly formed change with the 1905 line. The difference between the two could be seen in Shamshal allowing the people grazing land and this can be seen in the Fig 3 as well. This recommendation was ordered to be set as the demarcating line between the two countries and would be the new Macdonald-Macartney line. This was again brought to notice on 1st August 1907 when the question arose of which maps to use as the official map, the secretary of state ordered the usage of the 1899 line with the addition of the deviation in the neighborhood of Shamshal which was proposed in the secret dispatch No. 153 on 10th August 1905. This deviation made it the 1905 line however the British continued to call it the 1899 line although the deviation in the neighborhood of Shamshal was always respected whenever the 1899 line was mentioned.

The new border gave great concessions to China which saw China gain tens of thousands of kilometer-square of lands however the silence would later on create a complicated situation between British India and the People’s Republic of China. British India would continue to use the maps till 1908 at the very least however with the Xinhai revolution causing the collapse of the Qing Dynasty in 1911, the country fell into anarchy and would continue to do so for decades to come and post-World War I, the British reverted back to the Johnson line. Yet during this period, the British made no effort to exert dominance over the area and did not try to establish any bases or posts in the region. In fact by 1927 the British utilized a new border line which would be the Karakorum Range as the border between the two nations.

Due to this, the representation of the border varied greatly especially during the period between 1899 and 1947, with the British using three types of maps and through official and unofficial usage, these maps found their own validation.





You Wanted an Excerpt. :D :D
 
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British Navy used to sail up Yangtze bomb and bomb when she was not happy with China. killing thousands.

I am proud CPC stop this and kill some British, giving them a lesson.

Long live Mao

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You make it sound like a regular occurrence, rather than a clash between a greedy warlord and civilians, in which the Royal Navy got involved.

I am glad that your wishes came true, and Mao Ze-dong lives on.
 
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