India to get C-130J Super Hercules in December 2010

[DMLA]

Found this info on Defunct Humanity:



The IL 476 is mainly a stretched and modernised version of the IL 76, only the internal systems will be new, whereas most of the airframe as well as the engines will be the same that we already use. So this is not a new development that will take much time, neither are our IL 76 fleet in such bad shape, to be replaced as soon as possible.

Wiki list of aircraft of the Indian Air Force says, we currently use 24 IL 76, with 17 of them for transport.
So going for 10-12 C17 and the same number of IL 476 in future, will be way more cost-effective than going just for C17 and will makes IAF less dependent too!
If one of the types is grounded due to technical problems, lack of spares..., the transport capability is not completely gone, because we still have a second alternative.

Btw, can anybody tell me if we have the facilities to build the PS 90 engines of our IL 76, which the MTA also will get in India, or do they always come from Russia?

AFA facility goes, all engines are made at HAL Koraput.

Welcome to Engine Division, Koraput of HAL

So if the engines are produced here, they will be at koraput.

I agree with you that cost savings are important. What I meant was cost should not be a factor when the decisions are made by the politicos. The cost analysis should be a part of the overall CBA done by the armed forces in a transparent manner. This would make sure that the equipment being procured is the best option for the forces. That is the reason I believe that armed forces should tailor their requirements in such a way that equipment they don't want does not qualify the RFI/RFP. This is not possible with new systems but is possible with il-76/78 which IAF already flies!

wrt Il-476, the decision will be made only after it flies. Unlike missiles/ combat platforms which are considered more important by IAF/IA (and thus joint development, etc is seen), transport is not important due to adequate transport fleet available. The C-17 as I already pointed out, is a case of IAF falling in love! Let us see what happens with the future IAF heavy life capability. I am hoping for the best!

 

[sancho]

AFA facility goes, all engines are made at HAL Koraput.

Welcome to Engine Division, Koraput of HAL

So if the engines are produced here, they will be at koraput.

I know about HAL, but they mainly produced smaller fighter engines right? Was curious if there was another company that already has experience with similar aircraft engine.

I agree with you that cost savings are important. What I meant was cost should not be a factor when the decisions are made by the politicos. The cost analysis should be a part of the overall CBA done by the armed forces in a transparent manner. This would make sure that the equipment being procured is the best option for the forces. That is the reason I believe that armed forces should tailor their requirements in such a way that equipment they don't want does not qualify the RFI/RFP. This is not possible with new systems but is possible with il-76/78 which IAF already flies!

The problem is, forces want's always the best stuff, even if they don't need them necessarily! So there should be an independet side, that could give another point of view, or like in this case, needs to be convinced first. I agree that the A330 is clearly more capable, but it should be clear that even the IL 78 will do the main refueling job as good as any other tanker. And although the A330 is better than the IL 78, is it really the best choice for IAF, only because it is the best? The KC 767 offers any advantage the A330 offers too, the only difference is, it is smaller. So do we really need such a big tanker, or would the KC 767 be enough, with the advantage of around $70+ million less costs per aircraft? If the finance ministry didn't rejected, we wouldn't get this chance to compare them too right (btw, was wasn't the KC 767 not fielded before?)?
You can't simply leave it to the forces alone and also not make one rule for all competitions, because each of them are different and has other requirements. For example the initial MRCA competition was about M2K-5, Mig 29SMT, Gripen C/D and F16 B52 and although the Gripen and F16 was possibly the best fighters, they were clearly not the best choices, exactly because we had similar Mirage and Migs flying in IAF. At that time, M2K would clearly have been the best choice for a fast and easy replacement, but now in MMRCA the requirements seems to have changed again. So the competition must also follow different rules right?

wrt Il-476, the decision will be made only after it flies. Unlike missiles/ combat platforms which are considered more important by IAF/IA (and thus joint development, etc is seen), transport is not important due to adequate transport fleet available. The C-17 as I already pointed out, is a case of IAF falling in love! Let us see what happens with the future IAF heavy life capability. I am hoping for the best!

See that's what I meant, of course the C17 is the best transport aircraft and IAF wants it, but that doesn't mean we need 20-30 of them right? That's where the unbiased point of view must come into the game. I am hoping for the best mix, that gives IAF the most advantages, not only for the best aircraft, just like in MMRCA!

 

[DMLA]

You can't simply leave it to the forces alone and also not make one rule for all competitions

That's why i mentioned that the decisions should be open to scrutiny and the element of "check" should be during the evaluation. Else, the whole process becomes a waste of time as we saw with MRTT.

Correct me if I am wrong but was KC-767 an option with the last RFI/RFP? IMO it makes more sense to procure higher number of KC-767's than lower numbers of A-330MRTT at the same price. Provides a lot more flexibility to the force.

 

[DMLA]

AFA engine goes, I am pretty sure it would be koraput. When it comes to Russians or even Israelis to a large extent, they prefer working with the defence PSU's. Moreover, Koraput should be able to handle the assembly.

 

[sancho]

Correct me if I am wrong but was KC-767 an option with the last RFI/RFP? IMO it makes more sense to procure higher number of KC-767's than lower numbers of A-330MRTT at the same price. Provides a lot more flexibility to the force.

As far as I know, they wasn't, not sure why.
That's what why I think this will be another win for Boeing after P8I, although I still think replacing the the IL 78 MKIs in a row too, would be better than having 2 different tankers.

Btw, I found out that the Russians had plans to convert the IL 96 400 passenger aircraft into a tanker version too, which would had offered similar advantages like A330 and KC 767. It is even bigger than the A330 and can carry more fuel and cargo than the A330. It also uses the same PS 90 engines as IL 76, or MRTA in future and is as cheap as the IL 76. They even planed a version with western avionics and the same PW engines that the C17 has, so it would have been the perfect choice for IAF in terms of commonality, be it with IL 76, MRTA, or C17. Sadly they didn't developed it to the end, funding problems, other plans for future plans, don't know?

 

[DMLA]

AFAIK, russians have had no experience with flying boom operations. For IAF, they need the same to take care of the new inductions such as the possible C-17, P-8, XYZ. I am pretty sure that such solutions are available only with the west.

 

[DMLA]

I am not sure how many here subscribe to AW&ST. The latest issue has an article on C-17 production line and job issues at long beach, california. I am quoting a portion of the text here!

Boeing is looking to international sales to sustain the line in the mid term, particularly with negotiations now under way with India covering 10 firm orders and 10 options.

It would seem that options for 10 additional aircrafts do exist.

 

[SpArK]

EXCLUSIVE: No CISMOA? Here's What They're Pulling From The Indian C-130J

With India still hesitant to sign the contentious Communication Interoperability & Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA) with Washington, there's a great deal that's been written and said -- mostly speculative -- about what technology the US Government will withhold from equipment already ordered by India. Several commentators have said that the American equipment on order by India -- including the C-130Js and P-8 -- wouldn't be half as useful without the technologies that would come with them if India signs the CISMOA. I've just received the official list of gear that the US Government will NOT provide to the Indian Air Force on its C-130Js. It is important to remember that this is equipment that has specifically been asked for by India. As a result, these items will be kept off the aircraft and only "may" be fitted on the aircraft once the CISMOA is signed. Here's the official list of equipment that India won't get as a direct consequence of the hanging CISMOA:

* AN/ARC-222 Single Channel Ground and Airborne Radio System (SINCGARS) - Manufacured by Magnovox and administered by the US Air Force

* KV-119 IFF Digital Transponder (Mode 4 Crypto Applique) - Manufactured by Raytheon and administered by the US Air Force

* TACTERM / ANDVT Secure Voice (HF) Terminal - Administered by the US Air Force

* VINSON KY-58 Secure Voice (UHF/VHF) Module - Administered by the US Air Force

* Finally, the Rockwell-Collins AN/ARC-210(V) SATCOM Transceiver's COMSEC/DAMA embdedded RT is replaced with an RT that has no COMSEC/SINCGARS

Sources say the Indian government has a few specific reservations about the CISMOA (I'm gathering more on this), and is not convinced that there is any particular hurry to conclude the memorandum. Recently, US PACOM chief Admiral Bob Willard said in Delhi that the CISMOA was not a pre-requisite to India accessing a lot of advanced American communications technology, though this pretty much went against the sentiment in all other diplomatic and military visits from the US.

 

[SpArK]

 

[SpArK]

Great news!!


IAF's first C-130J departs Marietta, on way to India

Pic:

 

[SpArK]

One of two new C-130J Super Hercules for the Indian Air Force depart the Lockheed Martin facility in Marietta, GA​

On June 15, 2011 the third and fourth of six C-130J Super Hercules for the Indian Air Force departed the Lockheed Martin facility in Marietta, Ga. en route to Air Force Station Hindan in India.