India To Buy Two More Airborne Warning Systems

[AUz]

PAF's fighters are incapable of dealing with IAF jets by their own radar power therefore AWACS support is mandatory.

IAF MKIs are regarded as "mini-AWACS" for a reason - they can sustain battlespace management, long-range target detection/tracking and look-up/down simultaneously etc.

What are Pak navy's AWACS?

Ok.....hope you learn a thing or two while you are in this forum.

Best of luck to you.

"Mini-AWACS" , "Incapable of dealing with IAF with 'own radar power' " ...so on.

 

[The A-5]

i think he is talking about P-3c orion which is an ASW & reconnaissance ac rather than an AWACS.

P-3C does not have any type of Airborne Early Warning capability, this guys is nuts.

 

[kurup]

Ok.....hope you learn a thing or two while you are in this forum.

Best of luck to you.

"Mini-AWACS" , "Incapable of dealing with IAF with 'own radar power' " ...so on.

But you didn't answer this question .

What are Pak navy's AWACS?

 

[arp2041]

But you didn't answer this question .

What are Pak navy's AWACS?

Pakistan's navy has no AWACS, he is talking about 7 P-3c orions which is an ASW & maritime surveillance ac that PN has:

Lockheed P-3 Orion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[kurup]

Pakistan's navy has no AWACS, he is talking about 7 P-3c orions which is an ASW & maritime surveillance ac that PN has:

Lockheed P-3 Orion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Then this advice he gave some other member will be better suited for him ...

Ok.....hope you learn a thing or two while you are in this forum.

Best of luck to you.

 

[sancho]

We simply cannot skip on this one.... It would be crucial step in integrated airdefense and early warning system.
As a matter of fact Larger AWACS of the class of phalcons would be required for BMD and early warning of the launch.

EMB-145 simply cannot cover as much due to the limitations on its load carrying capability, size and power handling ability.
The 360 degree AWACS India program is underway and we would soon see a platform as early as 2014-15... a total requirement for such AWACS has been put upto 6 I guess in addition to existing 3 phalcon systems making upto 9 large AWCAS platform while EMB-145 would cover gaps in the coverage and share the burden all the while providing a dual band coverage(both L and S band).

We aren't at any disadvantageous position as far as Pakistan is concerned the sorry state of their AWACS fleet and the level of their integration is well known.
About China... they have a much larger area to cover aswell.. however we cannot deny the fact that we cannot simultaneously provide coverage on both fronts with the limited number of AWACS we have.

That's why we have the 3+2 A50 Phalcons, but they are costly and we can't afford to buy a big fleet of comparable plattforms, especially when more delays are predictable.
We are in disadvantagem since they have re than twice as much aircrafts as we have now, to cover a single borderline. We might have the more capable plattform and system, but what's the use when we have so limited numbers, that we have large gaps in our surveillance coverage?

 

[arp2041]

That's why we have the 3+2 A50 Phalcons, but they are costly and we can't afford to buy a big fleet of comparable plattforms, especially when more delays are predictable.
We are in disadvantagem since they have re than twice as much aircrafts as we have now, to cover a single borderline. We might have the more capable plattform and system, but what's the use when we have so limited numbers, that we have large gaps in our surveillance coverage?

@sancho, how effectively su-30mki can fill the gap of AWAC systems at the time of war, since it is called as Mini-AWACS??

 

[Viper0011.]

PAF's fighters are incapable of dealing with IAF jets by their own radar power therefore AWACS support is mandatory.

IAF MKIs are regarded as "mini-AWACS" for a reason - they can sustain battlespace management, long-range target detection/tracking and look-up/down simultaneously etc.

What are Pak navy's AWACS?

Good for India. A country that size would need about 12 or more AWACS easily.

Why do you think that the PAF fighters are incapable of dealing with the IAF jets? Both F-16 and JF-17 can look out to 100 KM into the Indian space. PAF's order of battle deploys its jets off FOB's, which are around 20 - 50 KM of the border in many cases so they can be looking at an incoming plane somewhere around 50 - 80 km within the Indian airspace....
Pakistan's US made radars can monitor Indian airspace about 100-200 km inside India (depending on where and how these radars are deployed). So not sure why the PAF jets can't sustain battle space management on their own radars.
Just so you know, the SU-30 can 'act' like a mini-awacs doesn't mean it has the capability to route aircrafts, determine flight paths of ships, jets and missiles. It can ONLY look deep inside and can share the data through data link with other jets or ground control. It's really the AEW due to its big radar that it provides. No such thing as battle space management like the Phalcon or the E3D or Erieye.....these aircraft were designed for these roles. SU-30 just has big radar and data link, nothing else that comes with an actual mini or big AWACS

 

[acetophenol]

India's AWAC Capability:

1.EL/W-2090

The EL/W-2090 is a further development of EL/M-2075 and EL/W-2085.
The EL/W-2090 uses the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA), an active phased array radar. This radar consists of an array transmit/receive (T/R) modules that allow a beam to be electronically steered, making a physically rotating rotodome unnecessary. AESA radars operate on a pseudorandom set of frequencies and also have very short scanning rates, which makes them difficult to detect and jam.

3 in service with 2 in pipeline

2.Kamov Ka-31

3.DRDO AEW&CS

4.DRDO Airavaat

note:The last project was transformed into DRDO AWE&CS Project

4.SU-30MKI

The Su-30MKI can function as a mini-AWACS as a director or command post for other aircraft. The target co-ordinates can be transferred automatically to at least four other aircraft. The radar can detect ground targets such as tanks at 40–50 km.N011M has a 400 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range, and 60 km in the rear hemisphere. The radar can track 15 air targets and engage 4 simultaneously. These targets can even include cruise missiles and motionless helicopters.

 

[sancho]

@sancho, how effectively su-30mki can fill the gap of AWAC systems at the time of war, since it is called as Mini-AWACS??

The only reason why it was called mini AWACS is, because it radar has long range and it is able to share the data with other Russian fighters like the Mig 21s or 27 in Cope India exercises. The Bisons used radar data from the MKIs to bring themselfs into good attack positions, while beeing small and passive made them hard to detect for US F15s.
However, that that can be done with any modern fighter that has a long range radar. Also a fighter radar looks only to the front and has a very limited field of view you can't fly alongside the border and detect what's happening on your sides, like an AWACS can do. In future, with FGFG and Rafale F4s that might offer 360° radar detection, fighters turn more into AWACS, but still lacks core capabilities, like long range, endurance, less detection range and systems...
The Gapfillers in this regard are cost-effective AWACS plattforms and systems in numbers and that is what the EMB DRDO AWACS is meant to be. But as usual, we dream about more, before we even have inucted the first system. If we want to catch up to Pakistan and China and think about our security first, then we add more EMB DRDO AWACS. But if pride is more important for us and we want to claim we can do something as good as only a few other countries, we accept DRDOs wish and go for another type.

 

[DARKY]

That's why we have the 3+2 A50 Phalcons, but they are costly and we can't afford to buy a big fleet of comparable plattforms, especially when more delays are predictable.
We are in disadvantagem since they have re than twice as much aircrafts as we have now, to cover a single borderline. We might have the more capable plattform and system, but what's the use when we have so limited numbers, that we have large gaps in our surveillance coverage?

Delays are not going to stop the procurement plans IAF is more interested in AWACS India program than DRDO AWACS mounted on EMB-145 aircraft.
Long term goal is to have about 9 such platforms including the 3 phalcons we already have...delays are an integral part when the industry is new and taking baby steps.. It would reduce slowly as the infrastructure builds up... even the Russians who had such a large industrial base face delays.. but that doesn't mean they are satisfied with inferior quality in the long run... same thing with us... we are developing a 1st class Air force in the league with the best hence quality cannot be put on sidelines... we might see the DRDO AWACS go the same path of that of LCA... where the Bigger player AWACS India is of real interest as is Tejas Mk2.

 

[sancho]

Delays are not going to stop the procurement plans IAF is more interested in AWACS India program than DRDO AWACS mounted on EMB-145 aircraft.

This is AWACS India, since the radar system is Indian, just like it's not IAF that is pushing this new development, but DRDO, just like to go for AMCA. They simply don't look at the urgent needs of the forces, or Indian security, they just want to show off and say we are a worldclass company. That's the reason why, why they want to go to the next development, although they didn't finished the current one. LCA is far away from beeing inducted, just like we still have no final specs and reports of IAF about this radar system and how capable it really is compared to the Phalcon for example. So instead of dreaming around, they should be kept on the ground and focused on what is really important for India!
I have nothing against them improving their system, for example when we go for shorebased AWACS, but for the Indo-Pak and the Indo-Chinese borders we need improvements now, not by the end of the decades, just like we need LCA now, not AMCA somewhere in the next decade.

 

[Sergi]

The only reason why it was called mini AWACS is, because it radar has long range and it is able to share the data with other Russian fighters like the Mig 21s or 27 in Cope India exercises. The Bisons used radar data from the MKIs to bring themselfs into good attack positions, while beeing small and passive made them hard to detect for US F15s.
.

Small question : I read in many articles that IAF never allowed MKI pilots to use their radars with forgine AF exercise. Then how this data link happen ??? AWACS - MKI - Bison ???

 

[PRINCE_THE_SHOWSTOPPER]

India's AWAC Capability:

1.EL/W-2090

The EL/W-2090 is a further development of EL/M-2075 and EL/W-2085.
The EL/W-2090 uses the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA), an active phased array radar. This radar consists of an array transmit/receive (T/R) modules that allow a beam to be electronically steered, making a physically rotating rotodome unnecessary. AESA radars operate on a pseudorandom set of frequencies and also have very short scanning rates, which makes them difficult to detect and jam.

3 in service with 2 in pipeline

oh I saw it with my own eyes in Agra base in sept this year...truely a beast in the air

 

[zaxcolix]

.....As I said in the other thread, it would be nuts to allow DRDO to develop a 360° version on a new plattform again, because that only causes more delays, while we already are in disadvantage to Pakistan and China.

That is foolish.

2 AWACS would cost us more than 1 Billion $ ..i.e. Five Lakh Fifty Thousand Crore Rupees.

If you want to put that money in perspective .....try to calculate the number of Houses that can be built, schools that can be built, Free health care that can be provided, Scholar ship for higher education that can be provided, improvement in police force that can be provided (to prevent rape).....

The entire spend on developing the LCA (Tejas) was 1 billion $ !!!! and that included building infrastructure from scratch, test Jigs, spending money on research, building prototypes, giving employment to at least 30,000 people ...not to mention building knowledge base for Aerospace in India.


India is now an declared Nuclear power. No one is going to attack us in a hurry.

Pakistan is incapable of attacking India and China knows it cannot attack India and sustain it over the Himalayas. Besides we have nothing to fight for. Its not like India has Oil and Gold Mines

India has already developed/developing airborne AESA radars for LCA and AEW&C. AWACS development is the next logical step. Sukhoi Superjet 100 is available at a purchase price of 35 million $ an aircraft. Its a new aircraft and I am sure they will be happy to modify it for us to try out as AWACS.

Joint development for MTA is already signed and when its finally ready ,we can make that as a standard platform for Indian AWACS.