India to buy 40 fighter jets from France, Qatar

[Salahuddin]

NEW DELHI: India wants to buy about 40 second-hand fighter jets from France and Qatar to bolster its air defenses, the air force chief said.

Air Chief Marshal S. P. Tyagi said that the purchase of French-made Mirage 2000-5 planes would be a stopgap measure until the air force goes ahead with plans to buy 126 new jet fighters.

Tyagi said India wanted to buy about 40 of the jets, including about a dozen from Qatar and the rest from France, and that New Delhi already was holding negotiations with French officials.

He gave no further details about the deal.

The decision follows the announcement earlier this week from Pakistan, that the United States had agreed to supply it with new F-16 fighters.

India is looking at American F-16s and F/A-18 Super Hornets, French Mirages, Swedish Gripens and Russian MiGs for the 126-jet deal.


http://www.thenews.com.pk/updates.asp

 

[Kaiser]

There has been news about this even a year ago but nothing happened this is even less reliable since its a propagaded sight

 

[Neo]

India has been in talks with France for last 4 years regarding the Mirage 2000 but its the first time I'm reading that IAF is interested in second hand jets from Armee de L'air.

 

[Quwa]

Good choice...procuring used Mirage 2000-5s - I doubt they'll be a stop-gap; they would be as old as the IAF's current Mirage 2000s.

Although I find it funny that the IAF has been drawing on and on about their 126 aircraft purchase since 2002; and the PAF settled its F-16 deal in about 18 months! And we may even see a growing trend of PAF and IAF procuring used F-16s and Mirage 2000s - respectively, in the next 4-5 years.

 

[EagleEyes]

Agree but not really!

IAF is playing smart, playing politically, trying to get more competition, and trying to get the best, and that is one of the reasons why it is taking so long.

In other note, i am sure that IAF is trying to make LCA better than JF-17 now, they have the advantage of money, but they will surely need help with it from outside.

F-16 deal for Pakistan was a totally different thing. Pakistan needed it as soon as possible to upgrade the capability of Pakistan Air Force, and shouldn't be compared with the India's MRCA choice in anyway.

I believe it would be smart if PAF sends a news to Europe, China, Russia and United States that it is interested in acquring an another advanced fighter to fulfill its future requirements. This will create a competition and will give PAF a lot of offers, but we have a bad reputation money vice.

 

[Kaiser]

We are going for F-16, jf-17, and J-10 lets just leave it at that.

Will it really matter how many advanced fighters india will go for know that china is gonna tests there J-XX in the next decade giving them a fighter which is generation ahead of india's.

With no news of the PAK-FA I think by the next decade pakistan will retain its qualitative edge on a large scale with the J-XX but until then our current orders are ok and the best we can do right know

 

[Quwa]

As long as Pak-U.S relations do not turn sour - Pakistan has the advantage of picking up used F-16A/B/C/D frames for free; and simply paying for the upgrades. IMO if the F-16 program seems to be going on track; I can imagine PAF building up the bulk of its forces with lots of used F-16s - upgraded to CCIP-Block 52 standards. For 1bn USD the PAF could pick up 50+ F-16C/D Block 32s and upgrade them to Block 52 standards; and upgrade their structural airframe for operations for at least another 10-15 years.

 

[Neo]

I'm not too comfortable with F-16's coming in large numbers. It's been subject to sanctions before, it will happen again.
Any possible future comflict will either be on the eastern border with India or western border with Afghanistan. In both cases USA will block supplies of spareparts.
Keep F-16 to the minimum, i.e. 68-88 jets.

 

[Cheetah786]

I agree with Neo

fool me once shame on u fool me twice shame on me.:army:

 

[araz]

I'm not too comfortable with F-16's coming in large numbers. It's been subject to sanctions before, it will happen again.
Any possible future comflict will either be on the eastern border with India or western border with Afghanistan. In both cases USA will block supplies of spareparts.
Keep F-16 to the minimum, i.e. 68-88 jets.

Neo I think you are partly right. I think PAF has played the wait and watch game with its present order. If after the change of guard in US the new establishment is Anti PAkistani, we can look towards China/ EU for our fighter needs. However if the new establishment shows a friendly face and depending on J10 development/progress, and Thunders performance we can either just induct these, or acquire another lot of F16s. One of the advantages may be that if we buy big Nos. it would be a long time before sanctions affect us ( Cannibalization). I think the picture will become clearer in 1-2 yrs.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[ST1976]

Good choice...procuring used Mirage 2000-5s - I doubt they'll be a stop-gap; they would be as old as the IAF's current Mirage 2000s.

Although I find it funny that the IAF has been drawing on and on about their 126 aircraft purchase since 2002; and the PAF settled its F-16 deal in about 18 months! And we may even see a growing trend of PAF and IAF procuring used F-16s and Mirage 2000s - respectively, in the next 4-5 years.

india has made technology transfer of SU30MKI which is far better than pakistani JF17 and F16(A/B). SU30MKI of india is now India's home production (and it's production is cheap also) so india is mainly trying for some superior aircrafts like F-16C/D block 70 & F-18 E/F or F-35 JFS or French Mir2000-5 or Swedish aircrafts which will certainly take time. india wants the best aircrafts with full tech transfer and also on cheap price which is certainly no easy.

but even if pakistan get success in buying F16 block 52s from US, it will not give her any real advantage over MKI as both of them are more or less equally comparable. infact SU30MKIs has been proved to be bit better than F-16 block 52s also which pakistan hasn’t got yet. while the chances are less that Pakistan will be able to buy F-16C/D block 70 or comparable european aircrafts which India is trying for. because first they are too expansive for pakistan and second world politics are not in that favor of pakistan that western powers will give her aircrafts of this standards.

 

[blain2]

india has made technology transfer of SU30MKI which is far better than pakistani JF17 and F16(A/B). SU30MKI of india is now India's home production (and it's production is cheap also) so india is mainly trying for some superior aircrafts like F-16C/D block 70 & F-18 E/F or F-35 JFS or French Mir2000-5 or Swedish aircrafts which will certainly take time. india wants the best aircrafts with full tech transfer and also on cheap price which is certainly no easy.

but even if pakistan get success in buying F16 block 52s from US, it will not give her any real advantage over MKI as both of them are more or less equally comparable. infact SU30MKIs has been proved to be bit better than F-16 block 52s also which pakistan hasn’t got yet. while the chances are less that Pakistan will be able to buy F-16C/D block 70 or comparable european aircrafts which India is trying for. because first they are too expansive for pakistan and second world politics are not in that favor of pakistan that western powers will give her aircrafts of this standards.

India is no longer going to be producing MKI. There was news all over that India has asked the Russians to speed up the delivery and the assembly of the balance of their order. India's production of MKI was costing the GoI close to $50 million per aircraft due to delays etc...at that price, the MKI is nowhere close to being cost effective as you claim.

As far as "superior" aircraft are concerned, you need to understand the implications of this before you state it. There is no such a thing as "blk-70" F-16s. If there is one, then IAF and GoI are going to have to foot the bill for its development which is something that the UAE did and was by no means cost effective.

The same goes for the Super-Hornet that IAF buys...if they set up production assemblies, the cost would be much higher than what you are having to pay for the MKI.

F-35? Ok to counter the decline from 39 combat sqns down to less than 30, IAF cannot wait for at the least another 5+ years before the US starts delivering F-35 LighteningII to the other countries....USAF has a tight schedule to replace all of its older F-16s...that takes precedence over supplying to India (if that gets approved) which happens to be sitting behind at least 6 other countries to take deliveries of the F-35.

The Blk52 that Pakistan is getting is more than a match for the MKI in an AEW&CS monitored and managed airspace. And you are wrong. blk-52 has not been found to be inferior to the MKI at any time (Rep. Of Singapore AF was very much pleased with the performance of their F-16s in India).

Pakistan does not have any intentions to go for something very expensive from Europe at least at this time. PAF has bought F-16s blk52 as a stop gap measure and once the IAF makes it decision on the MRCA, then only will PAF decide what it wants to buy if it finds that the combination of JF-17, blk-15/52 F-16s and potentially J-10s is not enough to cater to the IAF threat.

Also contrary to your claim that "world politics are not in that favor of pakistan", once the US approves of weapons transfers to Pakistan (which it has), everyone else (read Europeans) fall into line. PAF is in the business of reducing the types so it can streamline the maintenance and increase operational tempo with a smaller # of aircraft. Unlike the IAF, PAF does not need to buy an aircraft to match a specific type in the IAF....we just need for all of our stuff to work together nicely and from the looks of it, this integration seems to be coming along fairly nicely.

 

[Neo]

india has made technology transfer of SU30MKI which is far better than pakistani JF17 and F16(A/B). SU30MKI of india is now India's home production (and it's production is cheap also) so india is mainly trying for some superior aircrafts like F-16C/D block 70 & F-18 E/F or F-35 JFS or French Mir2000-5 or Swedish aircrafts which will certainly take time. india wants the best aircrafts with full tech transfer and also on cheap price which is certainly no easy.

India won't be assembling the MKI, its old news already.

Link:http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?idr=529&id=701664

 

[ST1976]

India is no longer going to be producing MKI. There was news all over that India has asked the Russians to speed up the delivery and the assembly of the balance of their order. India's production of MKI was costing the GoI close to $50 million per aircraft due to delays etc...at that price, the MKI is nowhere close to being cost effective as you claim.

i have read many times that total cost for the production of SU30MKI is nearly US$20Mn and further efforts was being made to reduce its cost to US$17-US$18Mn. here is one link i culd find....

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Deal IV (May 2005?) : It was originally planned that the 24 Sqn aircraft will be upgraded to the Su-30MKI Phase-III standard once the delivery is complete. However, the latest Russian offer is to replace these aircraft with newly built airframes at $270 Million in 2007. The reasoning being that some of the aircraft have already aged quite a bit - the first ones entered service in 1997. More importantly, the upgraded airframes would not have the same capability as the new airframes. The offer has reportedly cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council, but the exact status is not known at the moment

End Result : IAF will eventually acquire a total of 190 Su-30MKI. Out of these 50 will be made in Russia by Irkutsk Aircraft Production Association (IAPO) while the rest will be produced in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). Production might be increased if necessary. HAL chairman Nalini Ranjan Mohanty has said that the Indian-built Su-30s will cost only about $22.5 million a unit against the current import price of about $37.5 million [Financial Express, 10-Dec-2001].
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http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html

but yep this will be interesting to know why india can’t produce cost effective aircrafts while HAL has very good experience and India has cheap and highly skilled labours. I guess even if there is some problem, india would be able to solve it and will continue producing MKIs.

As far as "superior" aircraft are concerned, you need to understand the implications of this before you state it. There is no such a thing as "blk-70" F-16s. If there is one, then IAF and GoI are going to have to foot the bill for its development which is something that the UAE did and was by no means cost effective.

i guess my memory isn't that bad. i tried to search and here are few link about F16 block 70

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Like the MiG 29M, the single engine light weight American fighter aircraft designated as F16 A/B has evolved from an interceptor into a multi role version designated as F16 C/D. The F16 A/B was developed as a low cost, agile, light weight interceptor and incorporated design features based on the experience with the F4 Phantom in the Vietnam War and entered service with the USAF in 1979. The F16 is half the weight of the preceding combat aircraft such as the F14 Tomcat and F15 Eagle, and was optimised for a lower operational speed of Mach 1.6. It was also the first combat aircraft to be designed with negative stability necessitating a fly-by-wire flight control system. The multi-role F16 C/D Block 50/52 is larger in size than the original A/B models with an increase in wing area, fuselage length and control surface area. So far, more than 4,500 aircraft have been built and are operational in 24 countries including the USA . The F16 has undergone continual development and upgrade, which is represented by a Block Number placed as a suffix. The F16 A/B upgrades have Block Numbers from 1 to 20. Upgrades of F16 C/D have Block Numbers from 25 onwards. For example, the F16 C/D Block 25 was the first model to be armed with the AMRAAM air-to-air missile. Further developments were represented by Block Numbers 30/32, 40/42 and 50/52. The two numbers in each block indicates the source of the power plant, 50 standing for GE engine and 52 indicating Pratt & Whitney engine. Even though the original design is more than 25 years old, the newer models such as F16 C/D Block 50/52 or Block 60 developed for the UAE and delivered a year ago, would be in service for another 25 to 30 years. India has been offered a customised version, possibly Block 70, which would have all the advanced avionics and weapon systems of a fourth generation aircraft. In spite of the large numbers operated by different Air Forces worldwide, the aircraft has a reasonably good safety record and enjoys a reputation of strong technological and logistic support by Lockheed.
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.http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/SRR/Volume13/pandey.html

one more i culd find on google about f16 block70.
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1050511/asp/opinion/story_4721233.asp
you may also search the same on google. anyway.

The same goes for the Super-Hornet that IAF buys...if they set up production assemblies, the cost would be much higher than what you are having to pay for the MKI.

boss india is a big economy and has planned to spend about US$9.0bn for just new 126 aircrafts. total bill for arm purchase for india is about US$8.0bn every year out of total military expanse of about US$20bn every year. india has to update her military with new arms to maintain pace with other countries like china. no matter how good relation india maintain with pakistan, india has to develop her military w.r.t. to other powers of the world. right now india is looking on arm market with US$9.0bn for just 126 aircrafts or about $75Mn for each aircrafts. while blk 52s cost around $50-$55Mn. India will certainly not pay $75Mn for aircrafts like blk52 type while india is already having MKI of almost same standard.

F-35? Ok to counter the decline from 39 combat sqns down to less than 30, IAF cannot wait for at the least another 5+ years before the US starts delivering F-35 LighteningII to the other countries....USAF has a tight schedule to replace all of its older F-16s...that takes precedence over supplying to India (if that gets approved) which happens to be sitting behind at least 6 other countries to take deliveries of the F-35.

boss just see this 126 aircrafts deal, india is still thinking for last 3 years. there was a time when india was doing the same for MKIs and now they are the reality. nothing change in a day but this is sure that indian military will keep updating her aircrafts with new technology to maintain pace with rest of the world.

The Blk52 that Pakistan is getting is more than a match for the MKI in an AEW&CS monitored and managed airspace. And you are wrong. blk-52 has not been found to be inferior to the MKI at any time (Rep. Of Singapore AF was very much pleased with the performance of their F-16s in India).

boss let be 50-50. . i guess both blk50 and MKI are more or less equally comparable.

Pakistan does not have any intentions to go for something very expensive from Europe at least at this time. PAF has bought F-16s blk52 as a stop gap measure and once the IAF makes it decision on the MRCA, then only will PAF decide what it wants to buy if it finds that the combination of JF-17, blk-15/52 F-16s and potentially J-10s is not enough to cater to the IAF threat.

here im agree with you. combination of blk52 and JF 17 will be good to counter india. but it will mainly depend on how many blk52s pak will manage to buy. only chinese JF17 can't stand against MKI. but if india sign any deal with US or any european country for better aircrafts than blk52 (like this 126 aircrafts), pakistan will have to search something more again. but anyway, first pakistan will face number game with india, how many MKIs india will have and how many 52s Pakistan can buy.

Also contrary to your claim that "world politics are not in that favor of pakistan", once the US approves of weapons transfers to Pakistan (which it has), everyone else (read Europeans) fall into line. PAF is in the business of reducing the types so it can streamline the maintenance and increase operational tempo with a smaller # of aircraft. Unlike the IAF, PAF does not need to buy an aircraft to match a specific type in the IAF....we just need for all of our stuff to work together nicely and from the looks of it, this integration seems to be coming along fairly nicely

i just saw a news. please have a look on it.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2018614.cms

thanks

 

[Quwa]

The article you gave just assumes that the customized aircraft Lockheed offered is called Block 70; however it has not a tangible aircraft yet. If the IAF decides to procure "block 70" - then it will have to fork over billions for development; and more billions for local production facillities, logistics and infrastructure for its air force, etc. Trust me, a deal for 126 American fighters with local production WILL cross the 9bn USD mark; it could easily reach the 12bn USD mark. Remember Turkey? They are planning to fork over 2.9bn USD for their 30 new F-16s; and they already have the Block 52's infrastructure and local production capability! You honestly believe India will have it cheaper?

Before you go off comparing PAF and IAF; you must consider the fighter concentration in Pakistan. In their defensive nature, F-16 Blk-52+/MLU3, JF-17, and J-10 backed by AEW&C would be extremely difficult to get through; the way PAF is going, it is striving to ensure that India achives ZERO air superiority over Pakistan. Pakistan which is geographically 1/3 the size of India - but maintains an air force half the size of the IAF; it would be extremely difficult for IAF to get past a tight knit concentration of 282+ 4th generation fighters. So yes the PAF's plans are panning out quite well; and I am sure that the current acquisitions have kept in mind the possible IAF MRCA acquisition - as well as Su-30MKI, LCA, etc.

As I stated earlier - raw numbers mean very little; consider concentration of forces, effectiveness in terms of maintenance and operations, etc. The PAF can dish out a great deal to fight against IAF - especially within Pakistan's airspace; but how much is IAF willing to risk in Pakistani airspace?

Sure the PAF may not procure more F-16 Block 52+ - but it does plan to procure more F-10As; as an air-superiority/air defence fighter - the F-10A is reportedly very capable. With SD-10 BVRAAM, PL-9C WVRAAM + HMS and datalink with an AEW&C - would F-10A be any less capable than say Su-30MKI within Pakistani skies?