India to buy 40 fighter jets from France, Qatar

[ST1976]

The article you gave just assumes that the customized aircraft Lockheed offered is called Block 70; however it has not a tangible aircraft yet. If the IAF decides to procure "block 70" - then it will have to fork over billions for development; and more billions for local production facillities, logistics and infrastructure for its air force, etc. Trust me, a deal for 126 American fighters with local production WILL cross the 9bn USD mark; it could easily reach the 12bn USD mark. Remember Turkey? They are planning to fork over 2.9bn USD for their 30 new F-16s; and they already have the Block 52's infrastructure and local production capability! You honestly believe India will have it cheaper?

i would like to repeat the term "superior" no matter whether it is blk 70 or any other european aircraft. and boss superior will certainly take more money thats why india is ready to pay around $75Mn per aircraft while blk 52s cost just around 50-$55Mn. i guess if US or EU have any superior aircrafts than this MKIs and blk 52s, then india is looking for that whether it is blk70 or something else. then price, it may be $9bn or $10bn, but that "one of the best aircrafts", india looking for and so it is taking time.

Before you go off comparing PAF and IAF; you must consider the fighter concentration in Pakistan. In their defensive nature, F-16 Blk-52+/MLU3, JF-17, and J-10 backed by AEW&C would be extremely difficult to get through; the way PAF is going, it is striving to ensure that India achives ZERO air superiority over Pakistan. Pakistan which is geographically 1/3 the size of India - but maintains an air force half the size of the IAF; it would be extremely difficult for IAF to get past a tight knit concentration of 282+ 4th generation fighters. So yes the PAF's plans are panning out quite well; and I am sure that the current acquisitions have kept in mind the possible IAF MRCA acquisition - as well as Su-30MKI, LCA, etc.

As I stated earlier - raw numbers mean very little; consider concentration of forces, effectiveness in terms of maintenance and operations, etc. The PAF can dish out a great deal to fight against IAF - especially within Pakistan's airspace; but how much is IAF willing to risk in Pakistani airspace?

this is a point. now indian air force is getting about 12 MKIs every year from HAL, lets see how many blk 52s pakistan is capable of buying. and if you dont want to consider raws, and if you think Mig29s, Miraj 2000s, Jaguars, etc of india is not that good which india already having, then please dont be proud on this chinese JF17s. quality means MKIs and blk52s, lets see how many of them pakistan get.

Sure the PAF may not procure more F-16 Block 52+ - but it does plan to procure more F-10As; as an air-superiority/air defence fighter - the F-10A is reportedly very capable. With SD-10 BVRAAM, PL-9C WVRAAM + HMS and datalink with an AEW&C - would F-10A be any less capable than say Su-30MKI within Pakistani skies?

sir no more compasirion. there is no way to find which aircrafts of india and pakistan are better than each other. too many parameters and too many arguments. but i can assure you, upgraded Mig29s, upgraded Mir2000s, upgraded Jaguars and even upgraded Mig21s............. IAF still have many to maintain superiority over PAF.

now sir i tell you, indian and pak economy size is of 8:1 ratio but this doesn't means defense would also be of 8:1 ratio. india has to introduce new tech to its defense at certain interval and india can do that by spending just 2.3% of GDP. india dosn't need any great lead over pakistani military.

 

[Quwa]

Sir;

The current PAF procurement plan has taken into consideration both the MKI and MRCA; trust me, it would take the IAF at least 12bn USD to make any large-scale shift in PAF's current plan. Just do not forget the fact that the PAF plans to buy more than 36 F-10As - I'd expect them to add in another 18 before a formal order is signed.

It does not matter how big the Indian economy is - the fact will remain that Pakistan will still be a headache; and the PAF will eventually achieve the capability to ensure that IAF achieves ZERO air superiority over Pakistan. If India cannot acquire the air - then it cannot acquire the land and sea; in such a conflict it would be the Indian military which would suffer losses. I do not want to get into a rant of the equipment PAF will have and by when; but realistically - one can expect the PAF's 96 F-16 Block 52/MLU-3, 150 JF-17 and IMO 54 F-10A will be in service by 2015. Exactly how many MKIs, MRCAs and LCAs would IAF have by then when the Indian gov't says it will not have all 190 MKIs by 2019 and when the MRCA deal is not poised to be signed for a while?

If the numerical ratio of 4th generation aircraft is less than 1:2 (in IAF's favour) and Pakistan's geographical size is 1/3 - the IAF would not ANY meaningfull superiority over PAF. IAF has more space to defend - and it cannot dish out all of its forces against Pakistan; while Pakistan CAN. BTW - do not underestimate the PAF's option to pick up used F-16A/B/C/D frames for free under EDA; and proceed to give them a CCIP/MLU3 upgrade to put them on par with Block 52+. Because if push comes to shove - such as IAF upgrading their Mirage 2000s to -5Mk2/-custom and MiG-29s to similar standars - PAF WILL act accordingly with both the F-16 and F-10A options.

BTW - if you haven't noticed; there is a declining trend in Pak's defence spending in terms of GDP %. The U.S with its trillions of dollars is starting to slump into financial negatives with the Iraq war; honestly, a long-term war between India and Pakistan would take all of South Asia down.

 

[Nasir]

but yep this will be interesting to know why india can’t produce cost effective aircrafts while HAL has very good experience and India has cheap and highly skilled labours. I guess even if there is some problem, india would be able to solve it and will continue producing MKIs.

HAL has very good experience? I dont think they will be able to produce MKI if they cannot produce LCA good enough by themselves. Even though full transfer of technology for MKI has been taken place, it is hard for India to produce MKI effectively or cheaply.

This samething concerns me with JF-17. Would Pakistan be able to produce JF-17 efficiently.

 

[blain2]

JB,

You seriously need to get more updated info than what you have posted.
a) Mark has already mentioned the point about a "theoretical" blk 70.
b) MKI cost is $50 million/ac thus far as it was being produced in India.

boss india is a big economy and has planned to spend about US$9.0bn for just new 126 aircrafts. total bill for arm purchase for india is about US$8.0bn every year out of total military expanse of about US$20bn every year. india has to update her military with new arms to maintain pace with other countries like china. no matter how good relation india maintain with pakistan, india has to develop her military w.r.t. to other powers of the world. right now india is looking on arm market with US$9.0bn for just 126 aircrafts or about $75Mn for each aircrafts. while blk 52s cost around $50-$55Mn. India will certainly not pay $75Mn for aircrafts like blk52 type while india is already having MKI of almounter india. but it will mainly depend on how many blk52s pak will manage to buy. only chinese JF17 can't stand against MKI. but if india sign any deal with US or any european country for better aircrafts than blk52 (like this 126 aircrafts), pakistan will have to search ost same standard.

The issue not simply one of spending more...had that been the case then the Chinese can spend 10 times more than India. Any assembly that you set up in India will require a lot of time...F/A-18 is an entirely new aircraft for the IAF...vastly different than any other aircraft assembled in India. The time it will take IAF to put the production lines in and then start assembling the aircraft means that your mighty IAF would have dwindled to close to 25/6 sqns way below the 39 or so which are sanctioned to defend India in the Chinese and Pakistani theaters. This delay (and higher cost) was the reason that MKI assembly has been given back to the Russians as they were able to move up the delivery of the entire balance by 3 years. Also a $52 million F-16 blk52 comes with avionics and systems that are better integrated than the hodge-podge of integration that has been done on the MKI (this translates into better MTTR of components for the F-16). The issue is that so far the IAF has only seen the M2K and loves its maintenance and availability rates....this is a huge bonus...F-16 is a champ among the fighter aircraft in terms of its extremely high availability rates. The MKI does not even come close to the F-16 in availability....the MTBO on the MKI's engine is only 1000 hours...whereas those of the F-16s offer 4000 hours of MTBO. All these things have intangible values which are usually not considered.

MKI is not that superior (I know all Indians believe that it is God's gift to aviation), but there are more than enough aircraft that can meet and defeat the MKI including the F-16 blk50/52. Its just a matter of how the other aircraft are employed against the MKI. Yes it has a super awesome range on the radar, well in a couple of years, both sides will be fielding extremely potent AEWC&S systems which make the range of the MKI's AI radar redundant....PAF aircraft can simply be vectored in against the MKIs using Data Links with the Erieye.

MKI has TVC, well if things come to a merge, then all aircraft with HMS (All Pakistani F-16s will be JHMCS equipped) can do some damage even against TVC equipped aircraft....the USAF has done quite a bit of testing with TVC on the F-16s prior to the fancy aerobatics of the MKI, and found that in a 1-1 combat, the TVC helps, however when the odds are 2-1 against a TVC equipped aircraft, then the superiority goes out the window...keep in mind that these exercises were done without a HMS systems like JHMCS which can kill an aircraft with or without TVC.

here im agree with you. combination of blk52 and JF 17 will be good to counter india. but it will mainly depend on how many blk52s pak will manage to buy. only chinese JF17 can't stand against MKI. but if india sign any deal with US or any european country for better aircrafts than blk52 (like this 126 aircrafts), pakistan will have to search something more again. but anyway, first pakistan will face number game with india, how many MKIs india will have and how many 52s Pakistan can buy.

PAF does not buy aircraft to match the IAF...it buys aircraft to get a capability...PAF is primarily a defensive airforce and as such does not require a huge number of aircraft to match those of India...this has never been a case. JF-17 with DL through Erieye/Chinese AEW&CS and SD-10 would give even an MKI run for its money....do not discount JF-17 so easily as the aircraft is actually based on PAF requirements to cater to a threat from the IAF and is a better integrated aircraft than all of the hodge-podge that both IAF and PAF have fielded thus far....aside from that, all of the older blk-15 F-16s that Pakistan has and will acquire will boast weapons capability at par with the blk-52 so its not just the blk-52s that PAF would have to counter the IAF onslaught with.

My point in posting the above is simply to state that upgrading and modernization is not a one-sided thing....if IAF is doing things then so is PAF. Aside from that, its not simply an aircraft that wins in the modern battlefield, its actually how you manage the whole gambit of capabilities that yields positive results.

 

[blain2]

HAL has very good experience? I dont think they will be able to produce MKI if they cannot produce LCA good enough by themselves. Even though full transfer of technology for MKI has been taken place, it is hard for India to produce MKI effectively or cheaply.

This samething concerns me with JF-17. Would Pakistan be able to produce JF-17 efficiently.

Pakistan may have problems with it too, but only time will tell.

 

[ST1976]

Sir;

The current PAF procurement plan has taken into consideration both the MKI and MRCA; trust me, it would take the IAF at least 12bn USD to make any large-scale shift in PAF's current plan. Just do not forget the fact that the PAF plans to buy more than 36 F-10As - I'd expect them to add in another 18 before a formal order is signed.

It does not matter how big the Indian economy is - the fact will remain that Pakistan will still be a headache; and the PAF will eventually achieve the capability to ensure that IAF achieves ZERO air superiority over Pakistan. If India cannot acquire the air - then it cannot acquire the land and sea; in such a conflict it would be the Indian military which would suffer losses. I do not want to get into a rant of the equipment PAF will have and by when; but realistically - one can expect the PAF's 96 F-16 Block 52/MLU-3, 150 JF-17 and IMO 54 F-10A will be in service by 2015. Exactly how many MKIs, MRCAs and LCAs would IAF have by then when the Indian gov't says it will not have all 190 MKIs by 2019 and when the MRCA deal is not poised to be signed for a while?

If the numerical ratio of 4th generation aircraft is less than 1:2 (in IAF's favour) and Pakistan's geographical size is 1/3 - the IAF would not ANY meaningfull superiority over PAF. IAF has more space to defend - and it cannot dish out all of its forces against Pakistan; while Pakistan CAN. BTW - do not underestimate the PAF's option to pick up used F-16A/B/C/D frames for free under EDA; and proceed to give them a CCIP/MLU3 upgrade to put them on par with Block 52+. Because if push comes to shove - such as IAF upgrading their Mirage 2000s to -5Mk2/-custom and MiG-29s to similar standars - PAF WILL act accordingly with both the F-16 and F-10A options.

BTW - if you haven't noticed; there is a declining trend in Pak's defence spending in terms of GDP %. The U.S with its trillions of dollars is starting to slump into financial negatives with the Iraq war; honestly, a long-term war between India and Pakistan would take all of South Asia down.

...................

 

[ST1976]

HAL has very good experience? I dont think they will be able to produce MKI if they cannot produce LCA good enough by themselves. Even though full transfer of technology for MKI has been taken place, it is hard for India to produce MKI effectively or cheaply.

This samething concerns me with JF-17. Would Pakistan be able to produce JF-17 efficiently.

.......................

 

[ST1976]

JB,

You seriously need to get more updated info than what you have posted.
a) Mark has already mentioned the point about a "theoretical" blk 70.
b) MKI cost is $50 million/ac thus far as it was being produced in India.



The issue not simply one of spending more...had that been the case then the Chinese can spend 10 times more than India. Any assembly that you set up in India will require a lot of time...F/A-18 is an entirely new aircraft for the IAF...vastly different than any other aircraft assembled in India. The time it will take IAF to put the production lines in and then start assembling the aircraft means that your mighty IAF would have dwindled to close to 25/6 sqns way below the 39 or so which are sanctioned to defend India in the Chinese and Pakistani theaters. This delay (and higher cost) was the reason that MKI assembly has been given back to the Russians as they were able to move up the delivery of the entire balance by 3 years. Also a $52 million F-16 blk52 comes with avionics and systems that are better integrated than the hodge-podge of integration that has been done on the MKI (this translates into better MTTR of components for the F-16). The issue is that so far the IAF has only seen the M2K and loves its maintenance and availability rates....this is a huge bonus...F-16 is a champ among the fighter aircraft in terms of its extremely high availability rates. The MKI does not even come close to the F-16 in availability....the MTBO on the MKI's engine is only 1000 hours...whereas those of the F-16s offer 4000 hours of MTBO. All these things have intangible values which are usually not considered.

MKI is not that superior (I know all Indians believe that it is God's gift to aviation), but there are more than enough aircraft that can meet and defeat the MKI including the F-16 blk50/52. Its just a matter of how the other aircraft are employed against the MKI. Yes it has a super awesome range on the radar, well in a couple of years, both sides will be fielding extremely potent AEWC&S systems which make the range of the MKI's AI radar redundant....PAF aircraft can simply be vectored in against the MKIs using Data Links with the Erieye.

MKI has TVC, well if things come to a merge, then all aircraft with HMS (All Pakistani F-16s will be JHMCS equipped) can do some damage even against TVC equipped aircraft....the USAF has done quite a bit of testing with TVC on the F-16s prior to the fancy aerobatics of the MKI, and found that in a 1-1 combat, the TVC helps, however when the odds are 2-1 against a TVC equipped aircraft, then the superiority goes out the window...keep in mind that these exercises were done without a HMS systems like JHMCS which can kill an aircraft with or without TVC.



PAF does not buy aircraft to match the IAF...it buys aircraft to get a capability...PAF is primarily a defensive airforce and as such does not require a huge number of aircraft to match those of India...this has never been a case. JF-17 with DL through Erieye/Chinese AEW&CS and SD-10 would give even an MKI run for its money....do not discount JF-17 so easily as the aircraft is actually based on PAF requirements to cater to a threat from the IAF and is a better integrated aircraft than all of the hodge-podge that both IAF and PAF have fielded thus far....aside from that, all of the older blk-15 F-16s that Pakistan has and will acquire will boast weapons capability at par with the blk-52 so its not just the blk-52s that PAF would have to counter the IAF onslaught with.

My point in posting the above is simply to state that upgrading and modernization is not a one-sided thing....if IAF is doing things then so is PAF. Aside from that, its not simply an aircraft that wins in the modern battlefield, its actually how you manage the whole gambit of capabilities that yields positive results.

...............................