India tests Astra BVRAAM

[Dash]

Anathema -
good reply but I have doubts on your logics, Iam waiting on Kinetics response.

 

[Kinetic]

Saar it is highely unlikely for a country to develop a missile specific jammer.

There are huge possibilities that someone already did it!! Its like another jammer but special for some missiles.

Now can a country develop missile specific jammer - Yes it can in theory. For this to be accomplished the missile source codes , frequencies should be present with the enemy country -- untill and unless this is present they cannot design a missile specific jammer.

When a jammer is developed, that country tests it against some live missiles and if our missiles are also available to them they will definitely test the jammer against them. Its can be done with out knowing the source code but its not difficult to intercept the frequency of the homing head.

Further adding to the complication is --
1) Lets assume that a country puts in thousands of man hours and arrives at the correct frequency and other needed material of this missile-- But at what cost ? Missiles are constantly upgraded , so the enemy country would always be playing a catch up game -- investing so much money only too see that it is being nullified.
2) Second scenario -- lets say a war broke out-- Enemy country has missile specific jammer.

1) They don't need 'thousands of man hours', if they just put the missile on a radar testing facility the frequency can be easily intercepted. Its very easy with modern instruments. Missiles are constantly upgraded, yes, but only by the source country not by the buyer!! Thats why I said indigenous AAM is very very crucial in modern day warfare.

2) Its not just a missile specific jammer as I said earlier but it makes the job much easier for the jammer. In its memory it saves the threat possibilities/frequencies from certain missiles and try to intercept those frequencies first.

But in a air combat -- how will a pilot know which missile has been fired at him or her ? It can be R77 or R27 or Meteor or Astra -- all covering wide spectrum of frequencies --in this scenario the best possible way to counter it is to send out high amount of radio frequencies to Jam a missile and not a specific radio frequency.

The pilot need not to identify which missile coming towards him but RWR and jammers can do the job and intercept the incoming missile fast.

If the missiles are Meteor or Astra than the jammer will find it very difficult to intercept and jam but if it is R-77 (say the enemy have it) than the work will be lot easier for the jammer. Because it will start intercepting the missile's possible frequency stored in the jammer's memory. Its independent of which missile is coming but the jammer will first try to intercept the frequencies stored in its memory against certain enemy missiles.

So as i said -- yes it is possible that radio frequencies of the missiles are compromised (although i dont see that happening , no manufacture would divulge these details) -- but i dont believe in countries proactively investing in finding out jamming frequency of missile. They are much better off trying to devise a global package.

Enemies are working on it mate! Thy are working on our mainstay.

Think of the scenario, we have SD-10 and DRDO developed a jammer, shouldn't we try to test it against SD-10? Or when the jammer being developed, wouldn't we keep in mind SD-10?

It is always better to have indigenous missiles -- gives a great platform for our engineers to build more better platforms -- and that i believe is the only reason.

That gives us capability to upgrade them and develop user-specific systems as well.

trust chinese to do that !! That is the only thing i can say !

If they already didn't, trying their best atleast.

Not sure where you are going with ECCM ? But it is generally called electronic counter measures -- In other words countering electronic warfare.

The thing you were talking about is ECCM of an AAM. Thats why I bring it.

When a figher fires AIM 120C -- it feeds the target co ordinates to the missile seeker -- Missile seeker algorithm calculates the approximate area where a fighter can be based on altitude , distance , speed etc -- This is done for the AIM 120 C to know when to switch on its terminal guidance.

That is called INS + Mid-course + terminal seeker guidance system.

Now when a fighter tries to jam the incoming missile -- the ECCM detects the jamming signals (if there is a sudden overload in signal frquencies) -- the ECCM feeds this information to active guidance seeker -- the seeker switches the mode to 'Home on Jam' mode. The fighter which is sort of like a shining beacon of frequencies is identified by the missile --co-ordinates are again keyed in --ultimately resulting in the destruction of target.

this is the theoretical knowledge that i have -- however there are escape possibilities which is very evident considering that AIM has so far only 50% success rate (6 out of 12).

Yes, thats the work of ECCM in a BVR missile. When the the fighter try to jam the missile with ECM the missile's ECCM converts the missile into an anti-radiation missile and the missile home on the the source of radiation ie the fighter aircraft. I think you were talking about same capability of AIM-120C, isn't it?

But you said that Astra doesn't have such capability....

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...likely-test-fired-next-week-2.html#post977327

But for your regard, Astra also has same capability in the mean of ECCM. Thats another reason I bring ECCM here.

 

[Mogambo]

Astra missile test-fired for second consecutive day, after night trials

India on Wednesday test-fired 'Astra', the indigenously developed beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missile at Chandipur near Balasore, hours after carrying out the first night trial of the weapon. The sophisticated missile was fired from a launcher at the Integrated Test Range (ITR) complex, about 15 kms from Balasore, at about 2.07 pm, defence sources said.

The second consecutive trial comes after the missile was test-fired for the first time for night trial in inclement weather conditions last night. The data generated were being thoroughly examined by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) scientists, the sources said.

The single stage, solid-fuelled 'Astra' is more advanced in its category than the contemporary BVR missiles and is capable of engaging and destroying highly manoeuvrable supersonic aerial targets, DRDO scientists said.

The 3.8-metre-long missile, which has a diameter of 178 mm, can carry a warhead containing explosives weighing 15 kgs and can be fitted to any fighter aircraft.

It is intended for eventual integration with the IAFs Sukhoi-30 MKI, MiG-29, Mirage-2000, Jaguar and the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, the sources said.

Describing 'Astra' as a futuristic missile, the scientists said the weapon could intercept targets at supersonic speed (mach 1.2 to 1.4).

Astra test-fired for second consecutive day - Hindustan Times

 

[ek_indian]

What about flight trials?

 

[Dash]

But for your regard, Astra also has same capability in the mean of ECCM. Thats another reason I bring ECCM here.

And to add to it Peak power of a seeker is important in Electronic Warfare terms as it determines the burnthough performance of the radar, or the point at which the energy reflected by a target is greater than the energy produced by the target's defensive jamming equipment. This the point where jamming effectively fails and the Missile has a better source to target.

 

[CONNAN]

BY EDITOR AT 7 JULY, 2010, 3:14 PM

BY: HT

India on Wednesday test-fired ‘Astra’, the indigenously developed beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missile at Chandipur near Balasore, hours after carrying out the first night trial of the weapon. The sophisticated missile was fired from a launcher at the Integrated Test Range (ITR) complex, about

15 kms from Balasore, at about 2.07 pm, defence sources said.

The second consecutive trial comes after the missile was test-fired for the first time for night trial in inclement weather conditions last night. The data generated were being thoroughly examined by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) scientists, the sources said.

The single stage, solid-fuelled ‘Astra’ is more advanced in its category than the contemporary BVR missiles and is capable of engaging and destroying highly manoeuvrable supersonic aerial targets, DRDO scientists said.

The 3.8-metre-long missile, which has a diameter of 178 mm, can carry a warhead containing explosives weighing 15 kgs and can be fitted to any fighter aircraft.

It is intended for eventual integration with the IAFs Sukhoi-30 MKI, MiG-29, Mirage-2000, Jaguar and the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, the sources said.

Describing ‘Astra’ as a futuristic missile, the scientists said the weapon could intercept targets at supersonic speed (mach 1.2 to 1.4).

 

[anathema]

When a jammer is developed, that country tests it against some live missiles and if our missiles are also available to them they will definitely test the jammer against them. Its can be done with out knowing the source code but its not difficult to intercept the frequency of the homing head.

saar,
How can you know the frequency of the homing head ? It would be like searching for a needle in haystack -- you need source codes to know the exact frequency of the homing head. searching for a specific frequency in a spectrum in a band will take lots of time and effort to determine. Further more if you feel that it is very easy to determine the exact frequency of a missile homing head , imagine how easy it would be change them.

1) They don't need 'thousands of man hours', if they just put the missile on a radar testing facility the frequency can be easily intercepted. Its very easy with modern instruments. Missiles are constantly upgraded, yes, but only by the source country not by the buyer!! Thats why I said indigenous AAM is very very crucial in modern day warfare.

It takes lots of efforts Kinetic and it is not as easy as you make it out to be ---

Take a look at the below article -

How BAE's Jam Lab Develops Countermeasures Against Antiaircraft Missiles - Popular Mechanics

A captured missile's first stop is a clean room, where its brain is wired to relay the commands that the guidance system sends to its steering fins. Strapped to testbeds, the Jam lab researchers first determine how the missile tracks its targets. Any new methods are revealed by this electronic vivisection. "We're always looking for, and asking for, new threat systems," says Paul Squires, the Jam Lab's senior principal physicist.

One missile's brainstem has been trapped in this limbo, undergoing daily testing for more than seven years.

"It takes a couple years to obtain a new seeker and develop a countermeasure. Then it's another couple years before its fielded, and then they can respond. But that takes another five years of development."

2) Its not just a missile specific jammer as I said earlier but it makes the job much easier for the jammer. In its memory it saves the threat possibilities/frequencies from certain missiles and try to intercept those frequencies first.



The pilot need not to identify which missile coming towards him but RWR and jammers can do the job and intercept the incoming missile fast.

If the missiles are Meteor or Astra than the jammer will find it very difficult to intercept and jam but if it is R-77 (say the enemy have it) than the work will be lot easier for the jammer. Because it will start intercepting the missile's possible frequency stored in the jammer's memory. Its independent of which missile is coming but the jammer will first try to intercept the frequencies stored in its memory against certain enemy missiles.

No it will not intercept those frequencies first -- it will not have the time and liberty to do so --- it will have precious seconds to try and jam the missile -- But what it can do is,
include those frequencies in the 'Saturation attack' that it is trying to do -- and hope that missile takes the bait.

But these takes time and effort -- enemy will always play catch up game. Further if the seeker frequency can be changed then the entire effort goes down to drain (ofcourse this is my wild idea - whether this can be done is another matter).

Further more, i read in a forum somewhere that missiles like AIM 120 has frequency hopping -- if that is the case then counter measure becomes even more challenging.

Enemies are working on it mate! Thy are working on our mainstay.

Think of the scenario, we have SD-10 and DRDO developed a jammer, shouldn't we try to test it against SD-10? Or when the jammer being developed, wouldn't we keep in mind SD-10?

Yes i totally agree -- no question about that. would love to test the hell out of SD 10 and AIM --- but by the time we design the counter measure , a new upgraded version may have come out. But in principal i agree with you.

The thing you were talking about is ECCM of an AAM. Thats why I bring it. .That is called INS + Mid-course + terminal seeker guidance system.

I see the point.mid course guidance via data link is something different where in you can feed updated information to your missile seeker through fighter aircraft or even third party controlling entities such as AWACS ( i still dont know if practically its possible).

Does Astra have this ?

Yes, thats the work of ECCM in a BVR missile. When the the fighter try to jam the missile with ECM the missile's ECCM converts the missile into an anti-radiation missile and the missile home on the the source of radiation ie the fighter aircraft. I think you were talking about same capability of AIM-120C, isn't it?

But you said that Astra doesn't have such capability....

But for your regard, Astra also has same capability in the mean of ECCM. Thats another reason I bring ECCM here.

Aaahh my friend --having ECCM doesnt mean that Astra has two modes of guidance -- ECCM also has other functions rather than convert the missile to a home on jam mode -- ECCM in laymans terms is resistance to jamming. It will try to filter out all the saturated information and will assist seeker in trying to focus on the target (differentiating amongst clutter)....but this doesnt mean missile automatically converts into 'hom on jam' missile system. If Astra indeed had this capability then trust DRDO to advertise it -- to make our pakistani friends look a bit worried.

 

[anathema]

^^ Kinetic ----

A question to you ? Is the seeker in Astra indigenious or are we putting some other seeker on Astra.

I happened to read somewhere -- Astra has russian seeker -- probably adder's -- defeats the whole purpose ! If enemy knows the frequency of adder , then a new missile in the form of Astra is not going to change the 'status quo'.

 

[IBRIS]

India tests short range air-to-air Astra missile

BHUBNESWAR: India on Wednesday test-fired its short-range Astra air-to-air missile from a defence base in Orissa for the second time in two days, defence sources said.

The beyond visual range missile was tested at 2.05 p.m. from the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur in the district of Balasore, about 230 km from state capital Bhubaneswar.

Astra is a high-end tactical missile and is envisaged to intercept enemy aircraft at supersonic speeds in head-on mode at a range of 80 km and in tail-chase mode at 20 km.

The missile was earlier tested Tuesday, for the first time at night. "We are analyzing the data of both the tests" S.P. Dash, director of the test range told media.

http://news.oneindia.in/2010/07/07/india-tests-short-range-astra-missile.html

 

[Chanakyaa]

Good News.
When is Astra Expected to e Ready.. Any Idea??

 

[mrwarrior006]

guyz wat is tail chase and head chase mode?

 

[IBRIS]

Good News.
When is Astra Expected to e Ready.. Any Idea??

No confirmation on that mate. This was a second launch for 2 straight days successfully tested.


Astra test-fired for 2nd consecutive day

The sophisticated missile was fired from a launcher at the Integrated Test Range (ITR) complex, about 15 kms from here, at about 2.07 pm, defence sources said.

The second consecutive trial comes after the missile was test-fired for the first time for night trial in inclement weather conditions last night. The data generated were being thoroughly examined by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) scientists, the sources said.

The single stage, solid-fuelled 'Astra' is more advanced in its category than the contemporary BVR missiles and is capable of engaging and destroying highly manoeuvrable supersonic aerial targets, DRDO scientists said.

The 3.8-metre-long missile, which has a diameter of 178 mm, can carry a warhead containing explosives weighing 15 kgs and can be fitted to any fighter aircraft.

It is intended for eventual integration with the IAFs Sukhoi-30 MKI, MiG-29, Mirage-2000, Jaguar and the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, the sources said.

Describing 'Astra' as a futuristic missile, the scientists said the weapon could intercept targets at supersonic speed (mach 1.2 to 1.4).

"Before being made fully operational, the complex missile system will undergo some more trials, though tests of its navigation, control, air frame, propulsion and other sub-systems have been validated," the sources said.

Though the exact range of today's trial was not disclosed, DRDO scientists are working to ensure 'Astra' performs effectively at different altitudes - one cruising at an altitude of 15km with 90 to 110km range, another at an altitude up to 30,000 ft, having a range of 44km and the third at sea level with a range of 25km, the sources said.

The trials of Astra, conducted on January 11 this year from the same base, were successful.

 

[Sri]

Describing 'Astra' as a futuristic missile, the scientists said the weapon could intercept targets at supersonic speed (mach 1.2 to 1.4).

Most of todays aircrafts go much faster than that, so it may be only for chasing and not for killing

 

[ramu]

This is high end tech. It is still encouraging that we are getting closer to cutting edge technology.

Most of todays aircrafts go much faster than that, so it may be only for chasing and not for killing

Lets start walking before we attempt the marathon.

Lets not forget that we have to be capable enough to defend ourselves and to posture well to make sure the enemy gets the right message. The technology we have with Brahmos, Astra are for use and not subject to sanctions/ arm twisting. That is a huge step forward from humble beginning.

 

[Chanakyaa]

guyz wat is tail chase and head chase mode?

Suppose an MKI loaded with Astra is approaching towards an F16.

Head On :

Both The Fighters MKI and F16 are Moving Towards each other.
With Their \'Noses\' facing each other.
[ Note that we are talking abt BVR , The MKI would Fire and Leave before coming in the Firing range of the F16.]

Tail Chase :

Obviously this is the case when an MKI will be CHASING the F16. i.e. MKI following/chasing the TAIL of the F16.