India stands totally exposed on issue of terror financing in Pakistan: FO

[Saif-ud-Din Qutuz]

Your point above would have had merit had we been trying to compare the legal status of these regions..no?? What we are trying to compare is the alleged human rights violations...they are the same irrespective of your location....no?
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/Ajmal-Kasab-trial-–-Timeline/article12515678.ece

Believe it or not, your this statement has kind of, thrown me away to carry on with discussion. Have you ever seen barbaric acts of your forces in India. Please watch some videos on youtube or where ever you can get access to them. Then tell me, are we doing any of that even close to what you're doing to Kashmiris. I know its very difficult and its all natural for you to hate Kashmiris for their religion and stance but again, comparing Kashmir and saying Pakistan does the same (Human Rights Violations) in FATA or Baluchistan is absolutely injustice. We aren't mass murdering them. We know the leaders of those movements yet we're tolerant to them that's the reason why they're alive. Be neutral or at least try to be neutral. Ruthless killing of Kashmiris can only be compared with Palestinians and that's it.

What?? What did i just read there?? Culprits involved in insurgencies are caught and booked under relevant charges...and then law takes it's own course.....may be my knowledge in this subject is limited however i don't think in India enemy spy's/insurgents are treated in some special non transparent courts...this is the least expected from civilized worlds...no??

Here is one such example....this is the person, citizen of an enemy state, caught,live, gunning down innocents.....
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/Ajmal-Kasab-trial-–-Timeline/article12515678.ece

You can disagree but its correct. We do book insurgents and let courts take their own route on them. A few anti-state criminals like Yadav with Nawaz Sharif as PM are exception. We got to take our measures to make sure such anti state criminals get justice. If such cases are handed over to the normal courts, Nawaz Sharif will influence them and let Yadav go to India. Just so that you know, Nawaz Loves Moodi. Your steel business tycoon visited him as well

 

[deckingraj]

Believe it or not, your this statement has kind of, thrown me away to carry on with discussion. Have you ever seen barbaric acts of your forces in India. Please watch some videos on youtube or where ever you can get access to them. Then tell me, are we doing any of that even close to what you're doing to Kashmiris. I know its very difficult and its all natural for you to hate Kashmiris for their religion and stance but again, comparing Kashmir and saying Pakistan does the same (Human Rights Violations) in FATA or Baluchistan is absolutely injustice. We aren't mass murdering them. We know the leaders of those movements yet we're tolerant to them that's the reason why they're alive. Be neutral or at least try to be neutral. Ruthless killing of Kashmiris can only be compared with Palestinians and that's it.

The bold parts are the problem...looking everything from the prism of religion is the very first mistake that Pakistanis does(at least on PDF)...so you guys think that India has some special hatred for Muslims..right?? and then you are asking me to be neutral or try to be neutral .... Have you heard about separatists in Kashmir?? How many have been gunned down by India?? b/w unlike our neighbors we are not using fighter jets on our people...so i am all for discussion...however we need to be objective...emotional outburst won't help...neither can solve anything....

You can disagree but its correct. We do book insurgents and let courts take their own route on them. A few anti-state criminals like Yadav with Nawaz Sharif as PM are exception. We got to take our measures to make sure such anti state criminals get justice. If such cases are handed over to the normal courts, Nawaz Sharif will influence them and let Yadav go to India. Just so that you know, Nawaz Loves Moodi. Your steel business tycoon visited him as well

thanks for throwing the entire objectivity down the drain...so you think your civilian courts are good for nothing or are banana courts that can be influenced by Nawaz Sharif?? Amazing!!

 

[Saif-ud-Din Qutuz]

thanks for throwing the entire objectivity down the drain...so you think your civilian courts are good for nothing or are banana courts that can be influenced by Nawaz Sharif?? Amazing!!

If me being honest with you is what makes you think that way then I've got no other explanation. This corrupt leader, the crap out of a Bull's hole hasn't gotten a clear verdict against him in Panama case. He is still influencing judges and courts to favor his position. Now you understand why we prefer military courts over civil courts? In normal cases, they perform much better than anywhere else in the world. However, when it comes to controversial cases, they get influenced by crocodiles like Nawaz Sharif, Zardari and malfunction. It is a bitter reality.

The bold parts are the problem...looking everything from the prism of religion is the very first mistake that Pakistanis does(at least on PDF)...so you guys think that India has some special hatred for Muslims..right?? and then you are asking me to be neutral or try to be neutral .... Have you heard about separatists in Kashmir?? How many have been gunned down by India?? b/w unlike our neighbors we are not using fighter jets on our people...so i am all for discussion...however we need to be objective...emotional outburst won't help...neither can solve anything....

Are you sure the part in bold is only in Pakistanis? What about Indians specially Hindus? Aren't you trying to make everyone a Hindu, I heard such chants in videos of Moodi and his supporters stating if you want to live in India, be a hindu. Religion is very important in both the countries. Saying it only exists in Pakistan is again your biased approach.

 

[deckingraj]

If me being honest with you is what makes you think that way then I've got no other explanation. This corrupt leader, the crap out of a Bull's hole hasn't gotten a clear verdict against him in Panama case. He is still influencing judges and courts to favor his position. Now you understand why we prefer military courts over civil courts? In normal cases, they perform much better than anywhere else in the world. However, when it comes to controversial cases, they get influenced by crocodiles like Nawaz Sharif, Zardari and malfunction. It is a bitter reality.

Look every system has flaws but it is the same courts that stand tall even under Military rule of Mushy....Anyways strange but here in India we have lot of faith in our judicial system...we know they are fukcing slow but we know they are not sell outs...and honestly we have the same impression about your courts...

Are you sure the part in bold is only in Pakistanis? What about Indians specially Hindus? Aren't you trying to make everyone a Hindu, I heard such chants in videos of Moodi and his supporters stating if you want to live in India, be a hindu. Religion is very important in both the countries. Saying it only exists in Pakistan is again your biased approach.

For records I am Sikh...As far as first bold part is concern Orthodox bigots are everywhere, so does India...having said that don't you think these forums are the best medium to know/learn about the other side?? Just please check the stats about Minority population trends in India and you would know how empty and bogus is this Hindu Bogey....It would be hard to understand the real issues if you are going to rely too heavily on You Tube's....Just for example...Modi was CM of Gujrat for 15 years...Muslim population there is 8% and so does their representation in govt. offices....BJP had nothing to do with UP for more than 15 years....Muslim population is about 20% in UP and yet their representation in govt. jobs about 2%...that stat say anything?? however i bet...all you know/hear about Modi in Pakistan is Gujrat riots, Cow Lynchings, Treating Muslims as second class citizens...no??

Second bold part is correct...religion is important in both countries however it is also a fact that radicalization in Pakistan during zia time has brought lot of harm...and given a very different meaning to it...

Third bold part is your imagination...did i say Muslim Pakistan in any of my conversation...however how many times have you used Hindu India...??

 

[Saif-ud-Din Qutuz]

Look every system has flaws but it is the same courts that stand tall even under Military rule of Mushy....Anyways strange but here in India we have lot of faith in our judicial system...we know they are fukcing slow but we know they are not sell outs...and honestly we have the same impression about your courts...

General Musharraf's case was totally different. In that case, Chief Justice of Pakistan was a sold out nut who had alliance with Nawaz Sharif to not only get rid of General Musharraf but also to rig the elections in order to get Nawaz power in Punjab and then later on they had strengthened to hold majority in 2013 elections.
You still haven't understood my point. Our judiciary is better than any judicial system of the world. However, when there are controversial cases then a few judges will either get sold or will be pressurized. It is what influences their decision/judgment.
Military courts are established for anti-state elements. These are not normal cases. Try to understand, you have to have special arrangements for such cases to make sure the decision is not biased. I'm sure it's the same in India as well. If you're only referring to Yadav then be informed, its ISI its not some ordinary agency that has picked Yadav. He was involved in many terror attacks. I'm not sure what happens in India but over here, ISI doesn't spend time on trapping innocent soldiers to gain edge over a bargain. They simply don't work like that. When they come to know about someone being suspicious, they'll become his shadow without that person knowing it. They would know about his act during any moment. They would know what he is doing at any specific time. Once they're done with intelligence gathering on a person and is a confirmed culprit, they pick him up such that no one would know about that person until they themselves want it to be known. You can't understand that.

For records I am Sikh...As far as first bold part is concern Orthodox bigots are everywhere, so does India...having said that don't you think these forums are the best medium to know/learn about the other side?? Just please check the stats about Minority population trends in India and you would know how empty and bogus is this Hindu Bogey....It would be hard to understand the real issues if you are going to rely too heavily on You Tube's....Just for example...Modi was CM of Gujrat for 15 years...Muslim population there is 8% and so does their representation in govt. offices....BJP had nothing to do with UP for more than 15 years....Muslim population is about 20% in UP and yet their representation in govt. jobs about 2%...that stat say anything?? however i bet...all you know/hear about Modi in Pakistan is Gujrat riots, Cow Lynchings, Treating Muslims as second class citizens...no??

You can give thousands of arguments in favor of Moodi. However, Gujrat riots are like a crap on his face. There is a video in which I myself heard Modi saying, let Hindus vent their frustration out, when he was asked about Muslims being burnt alive. Sir, we do have minorities here in Pakistan. Maybe bad things would have had happened to them. Burning someone alive, burning Muslims homes when they're inside, females, children, senior citizens, nothing get more ruthless than this.
You tell me, ever since Moodi has become PM, what is the situation at LOC. Compare it with Congress regime as well and let me know what the results/stats say about it.

Second bold part is correct...religion is important in both countries however it is also a fact that radicalization in Pakistan during zia time has brought lot of harm...and given a very different meaning to it...

Zia didn't do any harm to Pakistan. USSR was strongest ally of India back end. We didn't want USSR get settled our next door. Imagine how brutal that would have been then. Just look at Pakistan now, India has its consulates in Afghanistan due to US in Afghanistan and whats happening. So at least, Zia delayed that thing until 9/11 false-flag. All Pakistanis from all provinces can die and will kill anyone that harms our religion and our country. Zia hadn't induced that in them. It's by-birth inherited in almost all human beings. I'm sure, you'll die and will be ready to kill if your religion or country is disrespected. Wont' you? Be honest, han?

Third bold part is your imagination...did i say Muslim Pakistan in any of my conversation...however how many times have you used Hindu India...??

You didn't say that out in open. However, I understood the underlying meaning of your statements and said things openly to be clear. I didn't want to be ambiguous so yes, I said many a times words like Hindus, India etc. I admit but it was due to clarity purpose and nothing else.

 

[Areesh]

Look...i honestly find it silly when someone says ...we have more freedom here than you guys.....Fact is that you have no idea about how things shape up here and i have no idea about how things are there..we live on mere media reports and as said earlier in some other posts...media concentrate on negative news....you have every right to live in perceptions...i chose to ignore them....and frankly more than 95% of population on both sides don't give two hoots about it....

I stick to my words. We have more freedom. The fact is that a party like BJP is ruling India is a good indication of situation prevailing in India.

 

[deckingraj]

I think now we are repeating our arguments...so let me reply to some of the key points...

General Musharraf's case was totally different. In that case, Chief Justice of Pakistan was a sold out nut who had alliance with Nawaz Sharif to not only get rid of General Musharraf but also to rig the elections in order to get Nawaz power in Punjab and then later on they had strengthened to hold majority in 2013 elections.
You still haven't understood my point. Our judiciary is better than any judicial system of the world. However, when there are controversial cases then a few judges will either get sold or will be pressurized. It is what influences their decision/judgment.
Military courts are established for anti-state elements. These are not normal cases. Try to understand, you have to have special arrangements for such cases to make sure the decision is not biased. I'm sure it's the same in India as well. If you're only referring to Yadav then be informed, its ISI its not some ordinary agency that has picked Yadav. He was involved in many terror attacks. I'm not sure what happens in India but over here, ISI doesn't spend time on trapping innocent soldiers to gain edge over a bargain. They simply don't work like that. When they come to know about someone being suspicious, they'll become his shadow without that person knowing it. They would know about his act during any moment. They would know what he is doing at any specific time. Once they're done with intelligence gathering on a person and is a confirmed culprit, they pick him up such that no one would know about that person until they themselves want it to be known. You can't understand that.

I gave you detailed timeline of court proceedings and different states of Kasab trial...Is that case very different than Yadav?? Plz clarify....if you answer is no...then are you saying that since civilian courts are worthless we needed non-transparent military courts??

You can give thousands of arguments in favor of Moodi. However, Gujrat riots are like a crap on his face. There is a video in which I myself heard Modi saying, let Hindus vent their frustration out, when he was asked about Muslims being burnt alive. Sir, we do have minorities here in Pakistan. Maybe bad things would have had happened to them. Burning someone alive, burning Muslims homes when they're inside, females, children, senior citizens, nothing get more ruthless than this.
You tell me, ever since Moodi has become PM, what is the situation at LOC. Compare it with Congress regime as well and let me know what the results/stats say about it.

I am not giving you any arguments in favor or against Modi...I am just trying to tell you that your perception that India is some Hindu fascist hands is unwarranted...because for that India has to be hindu fascist as he won a democratic elections...and still his charm is on....and if India is hindu fascist then Muslims should have been wiped out by now...no?? Let me ask you...Does Pakistani's hate shia's?? If not then why are so many attacks on them?? Isn't that the work of some minority?? I believe so, otherwise by now Shias would have been wiped out...You see what i am trying to say??

Zia didn't do any harm to Pakistan. USSR was strongest ally of India back end. We didn't want USSR get settled our next door. Imagine how brutal that would have been then. Just look at Pakistan now, India has its consulates in Afghanistan due to US in Afghanistan and whats happening. So at least, Zia delayed that thing until 9/11 false-flag. All Pakistanis from all provinces can die and will kill anyone that harms our religion and our country. Zia hadn't induced that in them. It's by-birth inherited in almost all human beings. I'm sure, you'll die and will be ready to kill if your religion or country is disrespected. Wont' you? Be honest, han?

No...I will not...civilized worlds don't work like that...to be honest most of us will chicken out when it literally comes to killing someone..it is not easy and after feeling is very terrible.....anyways...i understand the context.....so yeah will kill you if you attack my country.....however for that i wont purposefully radicalize my own youth...this is a dangerous cocktail...and unfortunately this is what you are witnessing...

You didn't say that out in open. However, I understood the underlying meaning of your statements and said things openly to be clear. I didn't want to be ambiguous so yes, I said many a times words like Hindus, India etc. I admit but it was due to clarity purpose and nothing else.

Sorry but then you got me wrong..India is a secular country and a very healthy population of all the major religions in the world...this diversity has its natural benefits...and changes your perspective...So yes i have my bias for Pakistan state but not because it is an Islamic state...hope you get the drift...

I stick to my words. We have more freedom. The fact is that a party like BJP is ruling India is a good indication of situation prevailing in India.

You have every right to stick to your words.....though unfortunately they are biased and based on looking probably only one side of the coin.....Pity that you have spend so much time on PDF and yet could not even get such simple clarifications from people on this side......

 

[Saif-ud-Din Qutuz]

I think now we are repeating our arguments...so let me reply to some of the key points...
I gave you detailed timeline of court proceedings and different states of Kasab trial...Is that case very different than Yadav?? Plz clarify....if you answer is no...then are you saying that since civilian courts are worthless we needed non-transparent military courts??

I agree we're indeed repeating our arguments. If you expect Pakistan to operate the way India does, its not going to happen. Maybe, its difficult for both of us to understand the points we're bringing on the table.

I am not giving you any arguments in favor or against Modi...I am just trying to tell you that your perception that India is some Hindu fascist hands is unwarranted...because for that India has to be hindu fascist as he won a democratic elections...and still his charm is on....and if India is hindu fascist then Muslims should have been wiped out by now...no?? Let me ask you...Does Pakistani's hate shia's?? If not then why are so many attacks on them?? Isn't that the work of some minority?? I believe so, otherwise by now Shias would have been wiped out...You see what i am trying to say??

Comparison between Shia - Sunnia and Muslim - Hindu is not correct. If that happens (what I highlighted in your comment) it would be one of the worst holocaust which India won't do. However, a fascist like moodi can certainly do that.

No...I will not...civilized worlds don't work like that...to be honest most of us will chicken out when it literally comes to killing someone..it is not easy and after feeling is very terrible.....anyways...i understand the context.....so yeah will kill you if you attack my country.....however for that i wont purposefully radicalize my own youth...this is a dangerous cocktail...and unfortunately this is what you are witnessing...

For the sake of discussion, you can say that but reality would certainly be different. You can't tolerate anyone talk crap about your religion and country. It can trigger an unfortunate incident. However, I won't argue on that and will give you that.
As far as the part of being chickened out is concerned, well, its automatic and you can't control that. If we were having a face to face discussion and you end up saying something gross about my religion or my country then I wont think and consider your physique. My mind will agree on, either beat the shit out of him or get beaten. It would be the same for you as well, though you won't agree here.

 

[deckingraj]

I agree we're indeed repeating our arguments. If you expect Pakistan to operate the way India does, its not going to happen. Maybe, its difficult for both of us to understand the points we're bringing on the table.

Of-course...we are called arch rivals for a reason, no?? ....though it always helps to hear the other side with an open mind.....and keep the discussion civil...so kudos for that...

Comparison between Shia - Sunnia and Muslim - Hindu is not correct. If that happens (what I highlighted in your comment) it would be one of the worst holocaust which India won't do. However, a fascist like moodi can certainly do that.

My larger point is nations don't turn fascist like that.....Had Modi/BJP been anti-muslim then you would have seen Muslims moving out of BJP ruled states and finally out of India...because we haven't seen a more stronger central govt. in past 3 decades...That was the reason i gave you Gujrat and govt. services example...Obviously there are political rhetoric's played to exploit the fault lines(i am sure your politicians are doing the same on your side), only difference is Pakistan's being 95-98% Muslim population demands, fault lines, on different parameters...For us it is Hindu/Muslim and then within Hindus - caste...For example - 1984 Sikh pogrom happened under Congress rule...Does that make then anti-sikh?? Recent Assembly elections in Punjab says otherwise...so such riots are evil side of politics...Similarly tripple talaq was banned by you guys in 50's...and in 21st century our Muslim women's still have to deal with that crap...why?? Politics of vote...no one is siding or is against Muslims here..

Let me clarify...my intention is not to convince you in any way that BJP is good or any of that crap...All I am saying is that we need to always look on ground to find the real truth...and that fact still remains - Modi is in power only because of development...He is not in centre because right wing India voted him to power...Right/Left wings in India are hardly a power(check the status of Shiv Sena/CPM)..and the day BJP will leave development as its core agenda, you will see Rahul Gandhi as the PM(though i will literally puke even at the thought of it )

For the sake of discussion, you can say that but reality would certainly be different. You can't tolerate anyone talk crap about your religion and country. It can trigger an unfortunate incident. However, I won't argue on that and will give you that.
As far as the part of being chickened out is concerned, well, its automatic and you can't control that. If we were having a face to face discussion and you end up saying something gross about my religion or my country then I wont think and consider your physique. My mind will agree on, either beat the shit out of him or get beaten. It would be the same for you as well, though you won't agree here.

Please keep in mind religion is very deep and everyone acts according to his/her own understanding...so actions of individuals are going to be very different...These so called ISIS pigs are also using religion for killing innocents...In reality Islam has nothing to do with any of their actions..no?

 

[Saif-ud-Din Qutuz]

Of-course...we are called arch rivals for a reason, no?? ....though it always helps to hear the other side with an open mind.....and keep the discussion civil...so kudos for that...

Well yes, that is correct. Discussions can certainly help understand each other.

My larger point is nations don't turn fascist like that.....Had Modi/BJP been anti-muslim then you would have seen Muslims moving out of BJP ruled states and finally out of India...because we haven't seen a more stronger central govt. in past 3 decades...That was the reason i gave you Gujrat and govt. services example...Obviously there are political rhetoric's played to exploit the fault lines(i am sure your politicians are doing the same on your side), only difference is Pakistan's being 95-98% Muslim population demands, fault lines, on different parameters...For us it is Hindu/Muslim and then within Hindus - caste...For example - 1984 Sikh pogrom happened under Congress rule...Does that make then anti-sikh?? Recent Assembly elections in Punjab says otherwise...so such riots are evil side of politics...Similarly tripple talaq was banned by you guys in 50's...and in 21st century our Muslim women's still have to deal with that crap...why?? Politics of vote...no one is siding or is against Muslims here..
Let me clarify...my intention is not to convince you in any way that BJP is good or any of that crap...All I am saying is that we need to always look on ground to find the real truth...and that fact still remains - Modi is in power only because of development...He is not in centre because right wing India voted him to power...Right/Left wings in India are hardly a power(check the status of Shiv Sena/CPM)..and the day BJP will leave development as its core agenda, you will see Rahul Gandhi as the PM(though i will literally puke even at the thought of it )

I agree with you on most of the things you mentioned. I won't say Modi came into power for letting Muslims burn alive. Obviously, his policies might be better that's why India has voted for him/BJP. Where would Muslims migrate to, if there were to, from India? It's not as easy as we may think. Not all, but a great chunk of Muslims over there are still living there because they've no other options.

Please keep in mind religion is very deep and everyone acts according to his/her own understanding...so actions of individuals are going to be very different...These so called ISIS pigs are also using religion for killing innocents...In reality Islam has nothing to do with any of their actions..no?

Yes, that is correct. ISIS is not a Muslim force. Remember, the videos which are posted online can't be trusted. There is no doubt in it that the creator of Al-Qaeda and Taliban has created ISIS and Daesh. I hope you've gotten my point.