India shelves the FGFA program

[Novice09]

Same thing happened with France's Rafale though, they refused to budge on ToT and India ended up buying 36 of them off-the-shelf with no ToT.

India is too insistent on ToT, who in their right minds would provide their core technologies to their own customers so they kill their future business.

Agreed... that is why we have shifted our focus from buying to building...
Being a manufacturer of defense equipment you should be aware of the fact that development procedure is a time consuming process specially if you don't have a base and experience... specially in democracies where priority of every party is different...

the kind of work is done by BJP for localised defense manufacturing is far more better than congress and others... we have seen that under PM Vajpayee and PM Modi...

 

[Shamsher1990]

Did that work well during the Rafale deal for 36 jets?

Actually thats what worked well.. Entire negotiation on Make in India and ToT was a huge dog and pony show.

 

[Novice09]

They'll happily give ToT. It just won't involve anything useful. It's a waste of money and time and hugely profitable to the OEM.

Russians are the only ones worth asking ToT from.

@SrNair @Novice09 We should spend the billions on Su57 ToT and let a conglomerate of HAL and private players absorb the tech. The same conglomerate will take charge of AMCA. There'll be no issues with spares then.
Instead, we're disgracefully being told that assembling Hornet will help us build AMCA somehow.

Agreed... that is why I said that if this is for F 35... I would hate it...

plus to make a true fifth gen fighter by the way of TOT... Russia is the only nation we can trust...

I feel that F35 is a hanging carrot for F16 or Hornet... plus we won't enjoy the level of comfort and trust which we have with Russia...

 

[thesolar65]

There is no other way. You have neglected all those 70 years. India has to start from scratch for new weapon system, pick up the thread in some projects which are in midway, and ramp up production where the products are finished.

You can't buy yourself into super power league.
I think this is good in the long run.....just like super computer saga.

War is not imminent but don't take your time. Just do it.

Once Kaveri and Uttam are ready, there is no looking back.

 

[KapitaanAli]

Agreed... that is why I said that if this is for F 35... I would hate it...

plus to make a true fifth gen fighter by the way of TOT... Russia is the only nation we can trust...

I feel that F35 is a hanging carrot for F16 or Hornet... plus we won't enjoy the level of comfort and trust which we have with Russia...

To be clear, I don't think that Su57 is necessary for us to make AMCA.
But there's no doubt that it'll speed up and improve the project considerably.

 

[SrNair]

They'll happily give ToT. It just won't involve anything useful. It's a waste of money and time and hugely profitable to the OEM.

Russians are the only ones worth asking ToT from.

@SrNair @Novice09 We should spend the billions on Su57 ToT and let a conglomerate of HAL and private players absorb the tech. The same conglomerate will take charge of AMCA. There'll be no issues with spares then.
Instead, we're disgracefully being told that assembling Hornet will help us build AMCA somehow.

Everything was perfect if Russians would have been follow a honest approach instead of playing oversmart .
They screwed us dearly in INS Vikramaditya and Su mki.
Lol they even kick start Mig 29k only after we orderd some 45 from them .
After that they also planning it for their forces .Why should we spend for MIC instead of ours ?
Let face the reality ,Russians weapons are not cutting edge not anymore .Within one decade China will overcome them.
But we will buy if Russians provide us most modern weapon .We already on 5 billion $ S 400 deal.
All these Syrian drama and bloodshed is to show the world about Russian weaponry and military interests
Nope they wont give full ToT that is why we had to develop our own Missile seekers and in near future if Russians creates problem again we will also develop propellent for Brahmos .
Everything was business for Russians .
God knows how many billions they earned through during last 5 decade.

Su 57 is heavy fighter but AMCA is a middle class .Not compitable .
Like Chinese think tank said we cant buy F 35 .By the time it arrives we will have AMCA inducted in IAF.
No hornet no F 35 .
Our most perfect option is Rafale .They already agreed to us about Kaveri .
Give some more deals .
They also dont have 5th gen we can take their cooperation.

 

[KapitaanAli]

Everything was perfect if Russians would have been follow a honest approach instead of playing oversmart .
They screwed us dearly in INS Vikramaditya and Su mki.
Lol they even kick start Mig 29k only after we orderd some 45 from them .
After that they also planning it for their forces .Why should we spend for MIC instead of ours ?
Let face the reality ,Russians weapons are not cutting edge not anymore .Within one decade China will overcome them.
But we will buy if Russians provide us most modern weapon .We already on 5 billion $ S 400 deal.
All these Syrian drama and bloodshed is to show the world about Russian weaponry and military interests
Nope they wont give full ToT that is why we had to develop our own Missile seekers and in near future if Russians creates problem again we will also develop propellent for Brahmos .
Everything was business for Russians .
God knows how many billions they earned through during last 5 decade.

Su 57 is heavy fighter but AMCA is a middle class .Not compitable .
Like Chinese think tank said we cant buy F 35 .By the time it arrives we will have AMCA inducted in IAF.
No hornet no F 35 .
Our most perfect option is Rafale .They already agreed to us about Kaveri .
Give some more deals .
They also dont have 5th gen we can take their cooperation.

Are you of the opinion that we don't require a heavy class LO aircraft?
Surely, class of the aircraft isn't a big issue in sharing the same tech. There's a lot about Su57 that I'd love to see on AMCA.

I support more Rafale, of course. The 110 tender should be cancelled and spent on Rafale and Tejas Mk2.

Our fleet should be FGFA, AMCA, Super MKI, Rafale, Tejas Mk2, Mk1A; with Super MKI at a questionable age of airframe.
I know we're low on money, but it's not too much to ask, is it. Five aircrafts.

 

[fitpOsitive]

To take up such big projects, India doesn't need to be Technologically advance, but rather India must work on mentality of her Society, cus society yields "the brains".

 

[SrNair]

Are you of the opinion that we don't require a heavy class LO aircraft?
Surely, class of the aircraft isn't a big issue in sharing the same tech. There's a lot about Su57 that I'd love to see on AMCA.

I support more Rafale, of course. The 110 tender should be cancelled and spent on Rafale and Tejas Mk2.

Our fleet should be FGFA, AMCA, Super MKI, Rafale, Tejas Mk2, Mk1A; with Super MKI at a questionable age of airframe.
I know we're low on money, but it's not too much to ask, is it. Five aircrafts.

We already have one Su 30 Mki .
Stealth of a heavy class one would be always less.
Trust me this 110 going to be a non starter .
Noone going to give us technology .
We need to develop it ourselves .
IAF also knows this .They are just buying time to reduce the pressure other nation business interests.

Eventually it would be Rafale ,Tejas and other homegrown fighters

 

[Shamsher1990]

In all of this discussion, did anyone pay any attention to what role will Indian Fifth Generation fighter play?

Here is something which even stealth cann't fix: Combat Radius and ferry range.

From the publicly available information, this comes out to be 5300 KM ferry range for AMCA. I don't know what kind of mission profiles will these fighters keep. As a very rough estimate, I take combat radius : Going into enemy territory, doing its thing and coming back as 2600 KM. Thats no where close to any place of interest in China!

When Chinese stealth bomber are going to attack India or J-20 is going to take out Indian AWACS or fuel tanker, they will not be exactly brining their fuel tankers or AWACS with them. Because Chinese have built a bigger bird to fly bigger distance. I wonder whats IAF playbook is going to be with AMCA.

J-20 is a much bigger plane to support fighting over South China Sea by taking out American fuel tankers or AWACS. Its stealth, so it can penetrate the complicated air defence of USA. It carries much more fuel and has a much larger range. All of these advantages work well with Indian theatre as well.

Lets face it, India needs these fifth gen machines only to fight one adversary, China. As far as Pakistan goes, in coming 10-15 years they are not exactly going to get a fifth gen fighter. Their air defense is also not having S-400s. Once India gets S-400, IAF can practically use its air defences for offensive role. Taking out Pakistani AWACS / air tankers while sitting right in the Indian territory. In short, AMCA needs to focus on Chinese threat. I fail to see what problem does AMCA solve?

 

[KapitaanAli]

In all of this discussion, did anyone pay any attention to what role will Indian Fifth Generation fighter play?

Here is something which even stealth cann't fix: Combat Radius and ferry range.

From the publicly available information, this comes out to be 5300 KM ferry range for AMCA. I don't know what kind of mission profiles will these fighters keep. As a very rough estimate, I take combat radius : Going into enemy territory, doing its thing and coming back as 2600 KM. Thats no where close to any place of interest in China!

When Chinese stealth bomber are going to attack India or J-20 is going to take out Indian AWACS or fuel tanker, they will not be exactly brining their fuel tankers or AWACS with them. Because Chinese have built a bigger bird to fly bigger distance. I wonder whats IAF playbook is going to be with AMCA.

J-20 is a much bigger plane to support fighting over South China Sea by taking out American fuel tankers or AWACS. Its stealth, so it can penetrate the complicated air defence of USA. It carries much more fuel and has a much larger range. All of these advantages work well with Indian theatre as well.

Lets face it, India needs these fifth gen machines only to fight one adversary, China. As far as Pakistan goes, in coming 10-15 years they are not exactly going to get a fifth gen fighter. Their air defense is also not having S-400s. Once India gets S-400, IAF can practically use its air defences for offensive role. Taking out Pakistani AWACS / air tankers while sitting right in the Indian territory. In short, AMCA needs to focus on Chinese threat. I fail to see what problem does AMCA solve?

AMCA with stand off weapons like BrahMos, Nirbhay, SAAW and NGARM will provide some capability against far off Chinese land assets.
I guess many policy makers believe that IAF's primary action will be in Tibet and the Chinese east will be explored only in an unlikely full fledged war between two giant economies.

But indeed, we must have a heavy LO fighter sooner than later.

As for Pakistan, it's a possibility that they'll get 5th gen before us, the J31 in the name of Azm. But those limited numbers will make no difference in a war considering Indo-Pak geography and capabilities. They'll be lucky to keep them safe on the ground.

 

[Mrc]

India shud pump all this money into tejas

 

[Shamsher1990]

India shud pump all this money into tejas

Correction : India should pump enough money into Tejas.

 

[randomradio]

In all of this discussion, did anyone pay any attention to what role will Indian Fifth Generation fighter play?

Here is something which even stealth cann't fix: Combat Radius and ferry range.

From the publicly available information, this comes out to be 5300 KM ferry range for AMCA. I don't know what kind of mission profiles will these fighters keep. As a very rough estimate, I take combat radius : Going into enemy territory, doing its thing and coming back as 2600 KM. Thats no where close to any place of interest in China!

When Chinese stealth bomber are going to attack India or J-20 is going to take out Indian AWACS or fuel tanker, they will not be exactly brining their fuel tankers or AWACS with them. Because Chinese have built a bigger bird to fly bigger distance. I wonder whats IAF playbook is going to be with AMCA.

J-20 is a much bigger plane to support fighting over South China Sea by taking out American fuel tankers or AWACS. Its stealth, so it can penetrate the complicated air defence of USA. It carries much more fuel and has a much larger range. All of these advantages work well with Indian theatre as well.

Lets face it, India needs these fifth gen machines only to fight one adversary, China. As far as Pakistan goes, in coming 10-15 years they are not exactly going to get a fifth gen fighter. Their air defense is also not having S-400s. Once India gets S-400, IAF can practically use its air defences for offensive role. Taking out Pakistani AWACS / air tankers while sitting right in the Indian territory. In short, AMCA needs to focus on Chinese threat. I fail to see what problem does AMCA solve?

AMCA will have more range on internal than the Flanker.

And Beijing is 2400Km away from Indian bases.

 

[Shamsher1990]

And Beijing is 2400Km away from Indian bases.

Not exactly

Shilong Base 2800 KM
Agartala Base 3000 KM
Guwhati Base 2800KM
Tezpur Base 2700KM
Dibrugardh Base 2500 KM
Jorhat 2600 KM
Twang Base : I would not count on this base, there are no wings deployed and it is very much the first base to be destroyed.
Rest of Eastern command are in WB, no point of even looking.

AMCA for 2600 KM range is quite ill-fitted for role of deep penetration missions in Chinese air-space. I don't know why India is developing a medium weight fighter to counter China.