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India says budget cuts won'tdelay Rafale talks

Just wait for next week.....fingers crossed :coffee:


I think the deal will be signed.

However it is possible that the number of units may be slashed. Which by the way is pretty common in large ticket items.


peace
 
However it is possible that the number of units may be slashed. Which by the way is pretty common in large ticket items.


peace

Looks highly unlikely sir, on the contrary, the numbers may go upwards to 200 maybe as you can make out with all other purchases by IAF.
 
Looks highly unlikely sir, on the contrary, the numbers may go upwards to 200 maybe as you can make out with all other purchases by IAF.


I hope it goes through.

But it slipped twice already.

Indian minister is dangling a huge carrot in front of the French.

In return Indians are asking tech transfer way beyond the level that French are comfortable with.

This is the biggest hurdle.

However the defense budget cuts of this year and the next will mess up the whole plan.


French and the Western fighter jets are not that easy to get compared to the Russian junk, IAF acquired in the past.

These planes are much more expensive and sophisticated.

French hesitation and reservation plus huge cost may force Indian ministry to cancel the order and go with Russians.

Never trust Indian baboos to make rational decisions.


peace
 
waiting for march. hope it is signed by then.
 
I hope it goes through.

But it slipped twice already.

Indian minister is dangling a huge carrot in front of the French.

In return Indians are asking tech transfer way beyond the level that French are comfortable with.

This is the biggest hurdle.

However the defense budget cuts of this year and the next will mess up the whole plan.


French and the Western fighter jets are not that easy to get compared to the Russian junk, IAF acquired in the past.

These planes are much more expensive and sophisticated.

French hesitation and reservation plus huge cost may force Indian ministry to cancel the order and go with Russians.

Never trust Indian baboos to make rational decisions.


peace

Agree with a lot of points you made sir, but my understanding is this. India till date is the only potential customer for Rafale and if the deal doesnot go through Dassault and French government cannot keep the production lines running beyond a certain date just on French Airforce and navy's order. MMRCA victory for Rafale is the best advertisement Dassault could hope to get considering how thoroughly MMRCA was conducted. Infact French government must be pinning a lot of hope on the fact that Indian deal would attract other potential buyers as well especially the countries who cannot wait long for F-35.
Under present circumstances India holds a slight advantage over the negotiations and as expected would want to extract as much from the deal as possible.
One thing we must not forget that even though negotiations are protracted (almost an year now), there have been no negative comments either from french or indian side and this forms the basis of my optimism.

I hope it goes through.

As my Muslim friends would say INSHA ALLAH :)
 
I hope it goes through.

But it slipped twice already.

Indian minister is dangling a huge carrot in front of the French.

In return Indians are asking tech transfer way beyond the level that French are comfortable with.

This is the biggest hurdle.

However the defense budget cuts of this year and the next will mess up the whole plan.


French and the Western fighter jets are not that easy to get compared to the Russian junk, IAF acquired in the past.

These planes are much more expensive and sophisticated.

French hesitation and reservation plus huge cost may force Indian ministry to cancel the order and go with Russians.

Never trust Indian baboos to make rational decisions.


peace


Its neither so simple nor so complicated as you are making it out to be; on the basis of very meager information.

The money has been provisioned for already; expenditure under other heads are either going to take a hit or get postponed.

That is the simple part. So sorry to burst your bubble- India will not need to go to the Russians to substitute the Rafale.

PEACE!

Now the complicated part:

The TOT/Offset requirements are huge, far bigger than what MoD has handled before; so its team is going through every comma and full-stop with a fine-tooth comb. Just to let you know; the team has as many lawyers and economist/accountants as it has bureaucrats. This has never happened before and a good lot of them are people with Intl. exposure, so they are giving all the nitty-gritty and fine-print a microscopic going over. Just to let you know, one of them is a person who earlier helped draft WB contracts in D.C. just as the present Chief Economist in WB was earlier the CEA to GoI. That is the kind of people involved.

This deal is not the usual FMS/MAP/EDA transactions that usually take place in the neighborhood.

Hope that helps you gain some perspective.

PEACE again!!
 
I hope it goes through.

But it slipped twice already.

Where did it slipped?

Indian minister is dangling a huge carrot in front of the French.

In return Indians are asking tech transfer way beyond the level that French are comfortable with.

This is the biggest hurdle.

Exactly, but that has neither to do with the budget, nor would be a reason to slash the deal, because it's only a matter of finding the right Indian partner companies. That's how business works, the one that is in the better position can ask for more as simple as that.
 
But it slipped twice already.

What 2 times has it already slipped?

In return Indians are asking tech transfer way beyond the level that French are comfortable with.

Hardly in the original RFP the exact nature of the TOT and offset obligations were made clear so if Dassualt had an issue or felt uncomfortable with any of these details then it shouldn't have even entered in the the MMRCA competition.


However the defense budget cuts of this year and the next will mess up the whole plan.

The modest (<$2BN USD) cut for FY2012-13 will have ZERO impact on the MMRCA deal- this is EXACTLY what this article is
EXPLICITLY stating. There are no such defence budget cuts for the defence budget 2013-14, in fact the defence budget will once again rise and be greater than $54BN USD most likely. When India is growing at 6% what is your reasoning behind further defence cuts? Where have you heard this nonsense? It is simply NOT true.

French and the Western fighter jets are not that easy to get compared to the Russian junk, IAF acquired in the past.

Based on what? You pay the money you get the jet- this is how the West and Russians work.


French hesitation and reservation plus huge cost may force Indian ministry to cancel the order and go with Russians.

Simply nonsense. The French are desperate to clinch this deal- it would be the single biggest fighter order in modern times and Dassault has A LOT resting on this deal- the Indian decision very well could dictate the actions of others such as Brazil and the UAE. Do you think the French will turn their noses up at $20++ Billion?

The power is on the Indian side, the French need the Indians more than the Indians need the French. If India cancels the deal they'll go for the EFT or F-18 which are waiting in the wings. If Dassault loses this deal it could well be curtains for the Rafale beyond 2018.


I'm sorry, I don't care if you are a JR TT or not but you are coming across as jealous and bitter. Your post is full of lies, sensationalism and malice.
 
What 2 times has it already slipped?



Hardly in the original RFP the exact nature of the TOT and offset obligations were made clear

If Dassault loses this deal it could well be curtains for the Rafale beyond 2018.

.

1. 2012 slipped. And French are saying 2013 March will slip too,

2. If the RFP was that cut and dry (which it can never be) there will not be any room for further negotiations. RFPs are written in vague words because RFP writers are not the fighter jet designers. And each platform has unique aspects to be TOT'd.

3. Rafale was developed and put in service long before Indians showed up on the scene, and French will continue developing newer planes long after 200+ Rafales are inducted in IAF.

Third world countries are dependent on French and not the other way around.


peace
 
1. 2012 slipped. And French are saying 2013 March will slip too,

These were arbitrary deadlines that the media made up- it was never stated officially that the deal would be signed in 2012. Additionally given the complexity of these negotiations then the delay of a week months/weeks is fair enough.

2. If the RFP was that cut and dry (which it can never be) there will not be any room for further negotiations. RFPs are written in vague words because RFP writers are not the fighter jet designers. And each platform has unique aspects to be TOT'd.

The ToT and Offset obligations were made clear to each vendor under the RFP and 2009/10 DPPs set forth by the MoD.

3. Rafale was developed and put in service long before Indians showed up on the scene, and French will continue developing newer planes long after 200+ Rafales are inducted in IAF.

Of course but it was developed at a time when the French and wider European economic climate was far more positive. As it is The French have already scaled down their own procurement plans for the Rafale by at least 100 units. Other future export potential has evaporated and the Indian MMRCA very much is a golden opportunity for Dassualt and the wider French aviation industry. The MMRCA is very much going to ensure the future of the French aviation industery. There is A LOT of literature on this- look it up.

Third world countries are dependent on French and not the other way around.


Third world nations is an outdated term. It is not inherently derogatory and relates to Cold war alignment so the usage of this term in the 21st century is pretty pointless and your point is moot.

The French and the West are dependent on the emerging nations (the likes of BRICS) for military exports as domestic budgets are being dramatically slashed.

Once again, you are coming across bitter and jealous hoping against hope this deal won't happen.
 
Preparing for a visitor from Paris

President Hollande is very different from the ebullient Sarkozy, who was much admired in India, but as Mali has shown, he can take firm decisions in his own quiet way
French President Francois Hollande, accompanied by his journalist-partner Valerie Trierweiler, several senior ministers and an impressive business delegation arrives in New Delhi on February 14, Valentine’s Day, for a two-day state visit that will take him to the Capital and Mumbai.

India’s decision to depart from protocol and accord France this rare honour (there has been no reciprocal state visit by the Indian Prime Minister since President Nicolas Sarkozy’s last state visit in 2008) underscores the importance New Delhi attaches to its relationship with Paris, which has become a major strategic partner. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh was the guest of honour at the Bastille Day ceremonies in 2009, but that was a short working visit.

Range of issues

During his two-day trip, Mr. Hollande will be accorded all state honours, including an official banquet at Rashtrapati Bhavan. He will hold talks with Dr. Singh and Congress leader Sonia Gandhi. In Mumbai, he will address a CEOs Forum meeting. Since the exact composition of his delegation has yet to be finalised, few details are trickling out about his visit except that there is likely to be an accent on accrued exchanges in higher education, research and the environment, alongside discussions on international and regional issues, particularly Afghanistan. France recently played host to a round of talks between the Afghan government’s representatives and the Taliban, and New Delhi would be keen to learn more about the road map post-2014 when foreign forces withdraw from Afghanistan.

The economic relations between the two countries will also be a major chapter and the French side is expected to ask India to make haste with its signature of the 10 billion-Euro-plus contract for the Rafale (multi-role combat aircraft), now that Dassault Aviation has reportedly agreed to almost all Indian demands, including a strict clause concerning technology transfer and offsets.

Nicolas Sarkozy, France’s ebullient former President, had managed to impress India’s business community with his determination “to double trade in five years” and his relentless salesmanship of French expertise whether in the defence, scientific or nuclear fields, with a readiness to transfer technology, convinced New Delhi that Paris had finally understood India’s economic and strategic importance.

Mr. Hollande is quite another kettle of fish. He is a quiet, measured man, capable of rapier-fine wit when least expected, but he is no showman and, unlike Mr. Sarkozy, studiously shuns any public display of his private life. The contrast between the two men could not be sharper. Mr. Sarkozy had held several major ministerial posts including those of interior, budget and finance and accumulated international experience before becoming President.

Mr. Hollande, on the other hand, has spent most of his career as the General Secretary of the Socialist Party and has never before held a ministerial post although he was a close adviser to President Mitterrand and several successive socialist governments.

During his 11 years as Party General Secretary (1997-2008), Francois Hollande led the Socialist Party to victory in election after election — parliamentary, European, regional, municipal. And finally, in May 2012, he beat incumbent Nicolas Sarkozy to become the President of France. Many of his ministers are personal friends who, like him, have been members of the French Socialist Party since their early student days.

He remains something of an enigma, a behind-the-scenes actor, including to his own people. The French themselves are beginning to discover that he is no “Flanby” or milk pudding — a nickname they gave him because of his mild manners, but surprisingly capable of bold and decisive action, like the current French military operation under way in Mali where he has already made a quick trip. Overnight, his approval ratings have gone up and yesterday’s Flanby has become something of a hero.

Despite the fact that policies do not generally change overnight with a change in leadership, personalities do matter. Mr. Sarkozy had stamped the Indo-French relationship with his own zest and enthusiasm, leaving many Indian business leaders from the CEOs Forum speechless with adulation. Now New Delhi has to get to know President Hollande, to find out if he has the same drive, the same desire to invest politically and economically in India, to further strengthen the already excellent strategic ties and build upon the strong foundation laid by President Chirac in 1998, when he showed exceptional goodwill and understanding following India’s nuclear tests.

President Hollande is expected to be accompanied by a large delegation, including several key ministers. Laurent Fabius, French Foreign Minister, is the one certain name on the list. Other names include those of Pierre Moscovici (Finance) Jean-Yves Le Drian (Defence), Aurelie Filippetti (Culture) Nicole Bricq (Foreign Trade), Delphine Batho (Environment), Genevieve Fioraso (Higher Education and Research) and the young but very competent government spokesperson and minister for women’s rights, Najat Vallaud Belkacem, who is of Moroccan origin. Undoubtedly, the female component will be exceptionally high.

The French too are expecting a great deal from this trip although there are unlikely to be any big ticket announcements such as the final signature for the Rafale contract or movement on the EPR nuclear reactors for Jaitapur.

‘Open and frank’

Foreign Minister Salman Khurshid who visited Paris recently (the first visit by a Foreign Minister in the second UPA government), told The Hindu in an exclusive interview: “The main purpose of my visit was to take stock of the situation so that we in India are much better prepared for his visit. We wished to indicate that we are looking forward to a very meaningful visit by President Hollande. How could I describe the President? I would say he was comfortable, a very comforting personality and he made it so very easy to talk to him. I felt that every message he gave was one of tremendous openness and frankness. The ministers displayed a similar openness. There was trust and a certain desire to move very far ahead. I can imagine that it would be difficult for any new president to have the special flavour and touch of Mr. Sarkozy, but I think Mr. Hollande is very special and we are determined to make this visit a resounding success. We might have differences over certain issues, Iran for example, but it’s the frankness and openness of dialogue that is important. I think they value our ability to say to people things that are important which others cannot say, because they do not have any communication links with them. We talked about Syria, Mali, Iran’s nuclear programme and they did not push us on any of these. We do have a careful, cautious approach and they accept that.”

The glitch lies on the economic side of the relationship. According to statistics released by the French government, the volume of bilateral commercial exchanges between the two countries, which had seen a net increase of over 30 per cent in 2010, went up by just 5.8 per cent in 2011 to touch €7.46 billion. French exports to India decreased by 4.5 per cent and amounted to €2.8 billion. India’s exports to France, on the other hand, rose by almost 13 per cent in 2011 to cross the 4.7 billion mark. French market share in India too fell by one per cent, mainly because of delays in aircraft deliveries. France is India’s eighth largest foreign investor and there are over 700 French companies working in India. However, France does not appear to be an attractive investment destination for India, which injected in France just about €1 billion of the roughly 75 billion it invests abroad.

There have been other problems. France is in the grip of a recession. Taxes have risen dramatically and unemployment continues to grow. France’s tough labour laws made Wipro’s Azim Premji remark that he would not invest another cent in France until there was more flexible labour legislation. The public quarrel between one of Mr. Hollande’s ministers, Arnaud Montebourg, who took up cudgels against Lakshmi Mittal, an Indian citizen who is essentially a European entrepreneur, painted a cruel picture of “Indian” businessmen as being bad employers. Its grave financial situation forced car maker Peugeot to shelve plans for a new plant in Gujarat; other industrial disputes arose that created a degree of bad blood in France about India’s “predator” industrialists.

Indian legislation of FDI in retail should also open up greater investment opportunities. A recent agreement on labour laws reached between the Employer’s Federation of MEDEF in France and the major unions should make life easier for people like Mr. Premji, who like France as an investment destination but are afraid of the constraints its labour laws impose. Both sides agree that small and medium French companies should play a bigger role in India if the two countries are to attain their true commercial and trade potential. That could happen if the defence deals between the two countries go through in a speedier manner. There is a lot more in the pipeline than just 124 combat aircraft.

The Hindu : Opinion / Lead : Preparing for a visitor from Paris
 
IAF hopes Rafale deal will be signed by June

Bangalore, Feb 7 (IANS) The Indian Air Force (IAF) hopes that the contract for the medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) Rafale will be signed by the middle of this year with the French aerospace vendor Dassault Aviation.
"The MMRCA project is very much on track. If all goes well, we will be in a position to sign the contract before middle of the year," Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne told IANS Thursday.
Giving an update on the status of the multi-billion dollar deal at an aerospace event here, Browne said the contract negotiations committee (CNC) had completed a major part of the work and discussions were underway on the work share between Dassault and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which will manufacture the fighter under licensed production.
"We hope by at least April-May the CNC will complete its work so that it (deal) could go to the finance ministry, where it will be examined all over before going to the cabinet for final approval," Browne said on the margins of Aero India 2013, a biennial trade expo on aerospace products and technologies in military and civil aviation areas.
Pointing out that the fourth-generation fighter deal was an extremely complex project, Browne said there was no short cut to the time-consuming process, which had to run its course covering technology transfer and the offset clause under stringent clauses.
"It was only a year ago (Jan 31, 2012) that the L1 (Dassault) was selected for acquiring the aircraft and the CNC was set up to finalise the deal soon after. We want it (deal) to happen as early as possible for induction soon," he said.
The contract is for purchasing 126 Rafales, including 18 jets in fly-away condition from Dassault and 108 to be manufactured by HAL, the state-run defence behemoth in Bangalore, later this decade.
The twin-engine delta-wing Rafale outsmarted Eurofighter Typhoon of EADS (European Aeronautic Defence and Space), which was also short-listed in 2011 out of the six global aerospace majors, including Russian MiG-35, Lockheed Martin's F-16 Falcon, Boeing's F-18 Hornet and Swedish Saab Gripen, who participated in the global tender floated in 2007.
The IAF will have an option to buy an additional 63 Rafale aircraft later.
The French fighters are meant to replace the ageing MiG 21 fleet of the Soviet era to enhance its air prowess and bridge the gaps in the fixed wing aircraft.
Dassault has flown in three Rafales, including two from the French Air Force (FAF) frontline air base at Saint-Dizier in northeast France and one from Al Dhafra military air base at Abu Dhabi in the United Arab Emirates (UAE) for flying and static display during the five-day air show at IAF's Yelahanka air base on the city's outskirts.
Dassault test pilot Squadron Leader Brocard Mickael is at the controls to demonstrate the strike power of Rafale used by the FAF.

IAF hopes Rafale deal will be signed by June
 
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