India, Russia discuss missile, helicopter, sub deals ahead of Modi-Putin summit

[kaykay]

12 System or 12 regiment means how many launchers exactly...

Each system consist of 8 launchers and 32 ready to fire missiles( 4 per launcher)+ reserve missiles.

 

[pher]

FGFA will happen in some form or another

There is no hurry for PAKFA / FGFA as J 20 is also going slow

MRTA looks unlikely to proceed

Who told you J20 going slow? The first prototype of FGFA showed up 2 years earlier than that of J20, while now J20 has 6 prototypes yet FGFA only has 3. You will see J20 enter into service next year. As for FGFA, take its time.

 

[Bang Galore]

I think only 12 system is peanut for our whole country.pls buy regiment.

Not really, that's not a bad number.

 

[topgun047]

Envelope of 12 S400 regiments over India plus potentially two more( From Bharat rakshak)
S-400 envelope over India

Current THD 1955 envelope

In addition there are various other sam sites and measures over India due to which PAF has decided to be only a defensive force.

 

[Echo_419]

Now Su 35 for Pakistan is definitely NOT happening

Yeh deal na bhi hoti tph uska koi chance nahi hota

 

[PARIKRAMA]

The important thing to understand is 2 points only
1. How many command centers India is procuring and planning?
2. Is the radar beyond russians S400 standard, we are augmenting via Israeli LRTR or similar types.

The number of command center tells you how beautifully the whole system can be spread over different ranges and different interjections. The number of regiments/ systems procurement comes after this as that itself tells us the plan of area coverage.

Secondly as i said if we can mix the radar of S400 and also able to input the signals via Israeli Long Range radar, we ultimately upgrade the S400 Triumf to more like S400 Triumf MKI version and enable much better detection and response ability. Its true Russia has good systems and Israeli radars are also world class. So ultimately we should be smart enough to use both for our protection.

From another blog i am posting one coverage picture what i had seen. as well some comments
Comments first
I have been reading up on this. It appears a single regiment of S-400 has 6 batteries maximum. Each battery has 12 launchers maximum. Moscow has 5 regiments of S-400 protecting it, that's 30 batteries maximum. I say maximum because you can have a smaller number of TELs or batteries connected to one command vehicle to make it smaller.

If the IAF requirement is the same, then we will have roughly 2 Russian regiments. Since one command vehicle controls 6 batteries, then we can deploy in just two locations. If IAF settles for lower number of TELs connected to each battery, then maybe another location at best. So it depends on how many command vehicles the IAF purchases. So I'm guessing just 2 or max 3.

And you are right, the battery level FCR can engage 36 targets. But the drawback is a single battery will have a mix of three different classes of missiles, so capability depends on the configuration.

So out of the 12 TELs, you can have one or two TELs carrying the 9M96 for self defence and the remaining can carry a mix of 48N6 and 40N6. So realistic capability depends on the number of larger missiles. The missiles will work as a 3 tier system to stop a single BM. So if we say multiple missiles from each class are required to stop a single BM, then actual BMs intercepted are lower than 36 at once.

Each TEL can carry 4 48N6 or 16 9M96. 40N6 configuration is not known. (courtesy Randomradio)

Indian S-400 is the upgraded version of original S-400 supplied to China. Indian S-400 will have elements of S-500 so it is more of S-450. The added advantage is that the present Radars of Israeli origin which are part of India developed AMD can be easily integrated with this system. This will give us multi-layered true AMD once Indian AMD gest fully operational. (courtesy Vstol Jockey)

An important comment
The S-400 is actually useless in the South. It can only stop missiles of 3000-3500Km range and that's with only one type of missile, the 40N6. So the pk will be much lower than when it is defending Delhi or Mumbai. We actually need the Phase II BMD or the S-500 for cities in the South. The threat to Andamans from Pak also needs the S-500 class. Out of the 7 metros, only Delhi, Mumbai and Pune are protected by the S-400 and Phase I BMD.

As for China, the threat is a minimum of 6000Km. The range from Manchuria to Delhi is 5000Km, to the South it is about 6000Km. This is something the Phase II is supposed to take care of, but we will need a Phase III as well to deal with ICBMs from subs.

Apart from that, the capability from a single battery is limited. At best 10 targets at once, if there is an 11th missile, then the SAM has to react much faster for the 11th one. So a lot of overlapping will be necessary. An area within a 400Km radius will see more than 10 nukes fired at it. Not to mention MIRVs.

Those 12 batteries will not cover all of India. It will cover only the most vulnerable sites with overlapping. Russia's initial projection was 56 regiments with 8 launchers each. Moscow alone has 5 regiments protecting it. That's why I have a feeling at least 6 of those batteries will protect Delhi and Mumbai, which obviously also cover the most important airbases like Pune and Bareilly at long range. The remaining 6 may cover individual sites like Assam, Rajasthan/Gujarat, Bihar and Kashmir with plenty of overlapping.

We will have to rely on Phase II for Pan-India coverage. (courtesy Randomradio)

I have done a small study about the deployment of S-400 which is represented below. Each circle has a radius of 400kms. This deployment pattern ensures that it covers the arcs of every trajectory of a ballistic missile from Pakistan & China towards our major cities by at least two batteries and we get to cover complete airspace to west of Indus river within Pakistan, North of Brahmaputra river in China besides protecting all our offshore assets on western and eastern sea board. This deployment pattern also ensures that most assets like AWACs will have to be flown outside the range of these missiles rendering them ineffective for Pakistan as well as China and deny them a peep into our territory. This pattern will also provide cover to our IBGs wherever they are deployed on Pakistan border. 12 batteries will only help us defend the mainland without covering the offshore & enemy territory. We can remove one of the batteries with red circle in case we decide to cover only our own territory.
We will need 13 batteries to cover whole of Indian mainland with the ability to maintain deterrence within the enemy territory. The Andamans can be defended by Barak-8 missiles; however we must negotiate with Russia to induct at least four S-500 batteries out of a total of 12. These must be placed in Punjab, Gujrat, Southern part and North-East to be able to cover larger areas inside the enemy territory. Induction of S-500 will allow us to spare one battery of S-400 for Andamans out of 13. The S-500 is still under development and is likely to be available by end 2017. We must negotiate with Russia to have last four batteries to be delivered to be S-500. (courtesy Vstol Jockey)

S-400 envelope over India

The above points and the picture seems to suggest the wide discrepancies as well as debates surrounding the role and efficacy of Triumf system or Triumf MKI system.
One thing is clear that a chinese BM with range more than 6k say launched from SCS or from deeper chinese provinces will essentially challenge our system.
Unless a dedicated satellite system detects and gives us a say 150-180 sec window. Again if its N armed, we would like to engage it at the highest altitude. Thus we need a sure shot kill vehicle or proximity explosion but at very high altitudes like 80-100 kms plus. Ala THAAD.. thats where evolution of S400 triumf MKI needs to be headed with at least 1 or 2 missile type developed for such a ICBM range Mach 20+ missile interception at very high altitudes.

Members are requested to pls share their views and comment on....

 

[[Bregs]]

$5 billion is some serious money. Looks like India is going for 12+ systems.

Yes S 400 system is a surprise but very potent addition into IAF's arsenal and its a very big deal if its for 12 system

FGFA will happen in some form or another

There is no hurry for PAKFA / FGFA as J 20 is also going slow

MRTA looks unlikely to proceed

hmm now this delay in MRTA will create issues for India specially after unstable Ukraine and problems in maintaining the older fleet of AN 32

 

[$@rJen]

Now Su 35 for Pakistan is definitely NOT happening

That's the pakistani's ultimate fantasy....see the russians are the real problem why we havn't signed the deal for rafale yet. the negotiations finished a while ago. then why the signing of the deal postponed to end of the year.. cause that's when modi goes to russia and sign some deal and make the russians happy... then we'll see the russians deny su-35 talks officially

 

[saurav]

If PSK is to be believed, EL/M-2090U ULTRA C-22 LRTR will be mated with S-400 and Russo-Isarel team has already briefed IAF about this. This Radar BTW looks better than Swordfish on paper.

Wiki does suggest that Russia has been open to modification of S_400 for South Korea :

"
South Korea is developing a simplified version of the S-400 called M-SAM Cheolmae-2 with the help of Almaz (Russian). The prime contractor is Samsung Thales, a joint venture between Samsung and Thales (French).[94] The M-SAM will be composed of an X band multi-function radar vehicle built by Samsung Thales in technical cooperation with Almaz,[95] and fire-control vehicles and transporter erector launchers built by Doosan.[96] LIG Nex1 will provide the missiles "