India, Russia 5th Generation Fighter Jet Deal is ‘Lost’

[CaptainJackSparrow]

We are brown skin desert dwellers and snake charmers for them.

I wouldn't say that about Indians. The people who really call the shots in the US, the top 10%, have a really favorable view of Indians mostly because of what Indians have contributed to this country. We are in IT, Finance, Academics, Medicine, Research...almost everywhere.

America respects those who add value. Indians have added significant value to this country.

Even white folks who do nothing good with their lives get similarly trashed by the rich and powerful here.

Now, I'm not talking about the hillbilly down the street. The junkies may not even know their left from the right. But then they don't call the shots either.

Repeat - Those who call the shots in the US, have a very favorable view of Indians.

It's all about 'what you bring to the table' than 'what you look like'.

 

[帅的一匹]

We may not be able to get the knowhow to develop an F-35 level product right away but we can definitely come up with something which, considering the significantly lower costs, if mass produced in large numbers, handle our security threats. Some reasonable compromise on quantity compensated by a significant quantity. And this is just for starters, you can always build on the technology.

At some point you have to build. You can't always go out and keep buying.

I agree

 

[ranadd]

Why waterdown is an issue? Are you trying to compete with US the provider? As long as it is better than what your potential enemies have, even a watered-down version is a good choice, isn't it?

Are you being serious? Cannot tell. .

Waterdown is a broad term I use. P8I, did not even had a data link built it. BEL made for it. It did not had a IFF. BEL made for it.

And also, there are terms in Jalashwa that dictates it cannot be used for offensive ops.

I wouldn't say that about Indians. The people who really call the shots in the US, the top 10%, have a really favorable view of Indians mostly because of what Indians have contributed to this country. We are in IT, Finance, Academics, Medicine, Research...almost everywhere.

America respects those who add value. Indians have added significant value to this country.

Even white folks who do nothing good with their lives get similarly trashed by the rich and powerful here.

Now, I'm not talking about the hillbilly down the street. The junkies may not even know their left from the right. But then they don't call the shots either.

Repeat - Those who call the shots in the US, have a very favorable view of Indians.

It's all about 'what you bring to the table' than 'what you look like'.

I agree.

That was just a wrong thing to say. I apologize.

 

[Kakaspai]

We may not be able to get the knowhow to develop an F-35 level product right away but we can definitely come up with something which, considering the significantly lower costs, if mass produced in large numbers, handle our security threats. Some reasonable compromise on quantity compensated by a significant quantity. And this is just for starters, you can always build on the technology.

At some point you have to build. You can't always go out and keep buying.

Dont you think threats to india demand f35 level product.Turkey will get f35 and will have their own 5gen too.India can donthe same.

 

[帅的一匹]

I don't think India will bite the bait this time, same old trick by Russians.

 

[CaptainJackSparrow]

Dont you think threats to india demand f35 level product.Turkey will get f35 and will have their own 5gen too.India can donthe same.

At some point we have to make the leap from buying to building. It's inevitable. India can't become a major world power let alone a superpower if it doesn't build its own mil tech.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

We may not be able to get the knowhow to develop an F-35 level product right away but we can definitely come up with something which, considering the significantly lower costs, if mass produced in large numbers, handle our security threats. Some reasonable compromise on quantity compensated by a significant quantity. And this is just for starters, you can always build on the technology.

At some point you have to build. You can't always go out and keep buying.

That's true.

Indigenous is the best solution, because foreign suppliers will milk the hell out of you during wartime when you need it the most, or may even cancel supplies and parts in wartime if the opponent offers a better deal. What is good for the supplier's profitability, can come across as blackmail to the customer.

With indigenous tech you can produce what you want, when you want it. In a scenario of large-scale war that matters a lot.

 

[nang2]

Are you being serious? Cannot tell. .

Waterdown is a broad term I use. P8I, did not even had a data link built it. BEL made for it. It did not had a IFF. BEL made for it.

And also, there are terms in Jalashwa that dictates it cannot be used for offensive ops.

Of course I am serious. So, it isn't the waterdown you are opposing. It is the type of waterdown you are opposing. If the waterdown causes the performance to be below your requirement, of course it is a no deal. Again, there is also an aspect of your requirement, too. So long as it is reasonable and practical, such as to be effective against potential enemies, instead of to be the best of the best, US fighter jets are a good target for negotiation, aren't they?

 

[ranadd]

Dont you think threats to india demand f35 level product.Turkey will get f35 and will have their own 5gen too.India can donthe same.

Both Indians and Pakistanis, IMHO, values ourselves too much. The day they understand most of them are being used and taken advantage of for the benefit of few, they both win.

Of course I am serious. So, it isn't the waterdown you are opposing. It is the type of waterdown you are opposing. If the waterdown causes the performance to be below your requirement, of course it is a no deal. Again, there is also an aspect of your requirement, too. So long as it is reasonable and practical, such as to be effective against potential enemies, instead of to be the best of the best, US fighter jets are a good target for negotiation, aren't they?

You are correct.

And the bolded part will never happen. Hence, India will never ever go for F35.

EDIT: I have seen the F35 up close once. I did not even believe 99% of the stuff I was allowed to see.

With indigenous tech you can produce what you want, when you want it. In a scenario of large-scale war that matters a lot.

This is where I respect the Chinese. Look past all the rhetoric, Chinese perfected the art of manufacturing.

I just don't know when India will reach there.

 

[ashok321]

India is a low income country paper tiger.
It can not afford billions of dollars left right & center. Period.

Look at India's budget numbers and its revenue:

https://twitter.com/x/status/852974748967587840

How can this country fight two wars simultaneously is beyond all common Indian citizens?

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

SOURCE : THE DIPLOMAT

India, Russia 5th Generation Fighter Jet Deal : India and Russia have hit another hurdle in moving forward with one of their most prestigious joint defense projects, the co-development and production of the the Sukhoi/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), known in India as the Perspective Multirole Fighter (PMF).

A senior Indian Air Force official revealed last week that Russia is demanding “an unaffordable price for the aircraft,” Defense News reported on May 24. According to the official, Moscow is allegedly demanding $7 billion from India as part of its share in the development of the fifth generation fighter jet, given that a work-sharing agreement currently under negotiation includes the transfer of sensitive Russian defense technology.

“India is not in a position to pay this kind of money, and the aircraft project appears to be lost,” the official said. India has been driving a hard bargain and the Indian Air Force official’s comment are likely intended to strengthen New Delhi’s bargaining position vis-à-vis Russia. Indian officials in May announced that the deal would not include tech transfers. “We are co-developers. There is nothing called technology transfer in this project,“ a government official said.

The transfer of sensitive defense technology from Russia to India has been one of the most contentious issues between the two sides right from the start, as I explained in March:

Before moving on, India wants a guarantee that it will be able to upgrade the fighter jet in the future without Russian support, which would require Moscow sharing source codes (sensitive computer code that controls the fighter jet’s various systems — the key to an aircraft’s electronic brains). In addition, the FGFA should directly support India’s advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) program — a separate Indian fifth generation fighter project.

At the beginning of the month, the issue appeared to have been resolved, according to Indian accounts, although Russia refused to comment on the negotiations publicly.

Following the official kickoff of the joint project in 2007, both countries concluded a preliminary $295 million design contract for the co-development of the FGFA/PMF in 2010. Right from the beginning both sides were at loggerheads, as I reported elsewhere:

Delays were caused by New Delhi and Moscow disagreeing over many fundamental aspects of the joint development project including work and cost share, aircraft technology, as well as the number of aircraft to be ordered. After evaluating the first PAK FA T-50 prototype (the Russian prototype of the PMF), the Indian Air Force (IAF) wanted more than 40 changes addressing, among other things, perceived weaknesses in the plane’s engine, stealth, and weapon-carrying capabilities.
India and Russia also disagreed over the number of aircraft to be produced ::

Russia announced in late 2015 that it would only induct a squadron (18-24 aircraft) of PAK FA fighter aircraft, and procure additional Sukhoi Su-35 aircraft instead. The original deal involved Russia procuring 250 and India 144 aircraft at a cost of around $30 billion by 2022. As a result, India threatened to abandon the project in its entirety. Russia in turn made a number of concessions, including an offer to cut down its financial contribution from $6 to $3.7 billion for three PAK FA T-50 prototypes and substantial technology transfers.

According to senior Russian defense officials, the Russian Air Force could possibly start receiving the first serial-produced fifth-generation T-50 (PAK FA) multi-role fighter jet in 2018.
SOURCE

The above is a good explanation as to why except for China, ALL the other non-white countries can NEVER be major global powers as they simply cannot indigenously/independently invent, pioneer, create and produce advanced sciences and technologies. They all rely on the white race for it. As a result they will always at best be secondary powers. The legacy of colonialism continues. No amount of barking and dribble on the net changes this glaring fact. This is a fantastic and disturbing notion given the fact that there are over 1.3 billion indians on this earth who are allegedly "intelligent". There are more indians than white people on this earth yet heavily rely on them for their defence requirements, advanced sciences & technologies.

 

[Nexus]

^ self hate is strong in this case.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

You call him sweety and yet so mean. Be nice to others.

What he said is true. You are taking a literal translation of what the minister said. India cannot afford to spend 7Billion, which is a huge amount by the way, when there is no value. India as a country is trying to develop its own industry. If billions keep going to other countries, how will things get better home?. 11 SP LCA's are on jigs as I type this, if you have not heard this yet.

Also, You do understand that the government wont cut a check for 7billion r8? or 20 billion for the Rafale as you pointed out. The payments are spread over 5 to 10 years. Target for defense is 2 to 3% of the GDP. GDP is over 2400B$ now. CAPEX per year range from 5 to 10B$.

If in your opinion paying big sums for no value jets, which btw you as a state being pursing for many many years, the number 125 being floated for as many years, suddenly , it all became "no value". I dont know how clued up you are with the history, India has been pursing 125 plus jets for many years and it is highly unlikely that India will not know the cost involved.

The reality is, India simply dont have means or as they say, to put money where her mouth is.

 

[帅的一匹]

The above is a good explanation as to why except for China, ALL the other non-white countries can NEVER be major global powers as they simply cannot indigenously/independently invent, pioneer, create and produce advanced sciences and technologies. They all rely on the white race for it. As a result they will always at best be secondary powers. The legacy of colonialism continues. No amount of barking and dribble on the net changes this glaring fact. This is a fantastic and disturbing notion given the fact that there are over 1.3 billion indians on this earth who are allegedly "intelligent". There are more indians than white people on this earth yet heavily rely on them for their defence requirements, advanced sciences & technologies.

That's why the whole west want to overthrow our government who reder the ability to challenge their bully.

This year both Pakistan and India will join the SCO, so India won't buy F35.

 

[ranadd]

If in your opinion paying big sums for no value jets, which btw you as a state being pursing for many many years, the number 125 being floated for as many years, suddenly , it all became "no value". I dont know how clued up you are with the history, India has been pursing 125 plus jets for many years and it is highly unlikely that India will not know the cost involved.

The reality is, India simply dont have means or as they say, to put money where her mouth is.

Ok.