India, Russia 5th Generation Fighter Jet Deal is ‘Lost’

[Jinn Baba]

Seems Russia is milking India every opportunity it gets. This time they probably got a little too excited after watching how the US is milking Saudi.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

So Indian Next gen figther is in thin air now.
Too bad.
Indian trolls had even started to threat Pakistan with FGFA [emoji23]
Russia should scrap this project and Join hands with china to co develope a Platform for Russian Airforce.
Chinese have both Technical Infrastructure and Money to take up this project and get the valuable Russian input as well.

Chinese already have several projects competing against each other... and trust me China is catching up to Russia (and has even surpassed Russia in some fields) real fast.

 

[CaptainJackSparrow]

So Indian Next gen figther is in thin air now.

I wouldn't say so much so soon only to end up with an egg on my face.

Necessity is the mother of invention. It led to LCA, howsoever flawed, it may lead to something much better the next time.

Seems Russia is milking India every opportunity it gets. This time they probably got a little too excited after watching how the US is milking Saudi.

What choice do they have? All Russia has is Oil and Gas. It has no human resource. It has no other major industry except defense tech.

And even Oil and Gas have only a few decades left before the world moves on to renewables. They will milk anyone they can lay their hands on. This is their bread and butter.

 

[Zhukov]

I wouldn't say so much so soon only to end up with an egg on my face.

Necessity is the mother of invention. It led to LCA, howsoever flawed, it may lead to something much better the next time.



What choice do they have? All Russia has is Oil and Gas. It has no human resource. It has no other major industry except defense tech.

And even Oil and Gas have only a few decades left before the world moves on to renewables. They will milk anyone they can lay their hands on. This is their bread and butter.

It was a questin statement BTW. Keep the eggs under the hens or on breakfast table where they belong [emoji23]

 

[Motti]

Actually, Jack Sparrow is right. Too many times have things got delayed in India, only to be resuscitated. The FGFA needs to be pegged to India's AMCA program in order to create synergies. But the pro-American lobby is raising F-35 as an alternative although no concrete offer has been made to India, in spite of some verbal feelers.

 

[Nexus]

Dude, that could also have built the LCA.

LCA is a dead project and not a single part of that plane is indigenous. Except maybe design.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

LCA is a dead project and not a single part of that plane is indigenous. Except maybe design.

French Dassault was involved in the design process.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

It more the Cost-Benefit analysis than lack of funds. That is standard in any democracy so that people can't go ahead and waste public money where they didn't have to for their own profit or whims.

India has bought more expensive stuff than this and every year sets aside plenty of funds for defence. It's the judicious utilization of those funds that stops a lot of deals.

I will pay you what you want if I feel I'm getting the value I want. Otherwise, no deal.

Read my post above. India can use $7billion much better than giving it to the Russians for an Aircraft we may not even be able to fully customize to our needs.

https://thewire.in/68202/rafale-deal-emblematic-modi-trying-fix-indias-defence-industry/

“I also feel like having a BMW and Mercedes. But I don’t because I can’t afford it… So, 126 Rafales was economically unviable. It was not required,” defence minister Manohar Parrikar was reported to have said last year, when asked about the previous government’s plan to buy over a hundred Rafale fighter jets."


Read it, digest it. You dont have the money that you been bragging about all these years. I am sure your defense minister albeit ex, knows a lot more about present state of India against some arm chair warrior having wishful thinking.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

SOURCE : THE DIPLOMAT

India, Russia 5th Generation Fighter Jet Deal : India and Russia have hit another hurdle in moving forward with one of their most prestigious joint defense projects, the co-development and production of the the Sukhoi/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), known in India as the Perspective Multirole Fighter (PMF).

A senior Indian Air Force official revealed last week that Russia is demanding “an unaffordable price for the aircraft,” Defense News reported on May 24. According to the official, Moscow is allegedly demanding $7 billion from India as part of its share in the development of the fifth generation fighter jet, given that a work-sharing agreement currently under negotiation includes the transfer of sensitive Russian defense technology.

“India is not in a position to pay this kind of money, and the aircraft project appears to be lost,” the official said. India has been driving a hard bargain and the Indian Air Force official’s comment are likely intended to strengthen New Delhi’s bargaining position vis-à-vis Russia. Indian officials in May announced that the deal would not include tech transfers. “We are co-developers. There is nothing called technology transfer in this project,“ a government official said.

The transfer of sensitive defense technology from Russia to India has been one of the most contentious issues between the two sides right from the start, as I explained in March:

Before moving on, India wants a guarantee that it will be able to upgrade the fighter jet in the future without Russian support, which would require Moscow sharing source codes (sensitive computer code that controls the fighter jet’s various systems — the key to an aircraft’s electronic brains). In addition, the FGFA should directly support India’s advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) program — a separate Indian fifth generation fighter project.

At the beginning of the month, the issue appeared to have been resolved, according to Indian accounts, although Russia refused to comment on the negotiations publicly.

Following the official kickoff of the joint project in 2007, both countries concluded a preliminary $295 million design contract for the co-development of the FGFA/PMF in 2010. Right from the beginning both sides were at loggerheads, as I reported elsewhere:

Delays were caused by New Delhi and Moscow disagreeing over many fundamental aspects of the joint development project including work and cost share, aircraft technology, as well as the number of aircraft to be ordered. After evaluating the first PAK FA T-50 prototype (the Russian prototype of the PMF), the Indian Air Force (IAF) wanted more than 40 changes addressing, among other things, perceived weaknesses in the plane’s engine, stealth, and weapon-carrying capabilities.
India and Russia also disagreed over the number of aircraft to be produced ::

Russia announced in late 2015 that it would only induct a squadron (18-24 aircraft) of PAK FA fighter aircraft, and procure additional Sukhoi Su-35 aircraft instead. The original deal involved Russia procuring 250 and India 144 aircraft at a cost of around $30 billion by 2022. As a result, India threatened to abandon the project in its entirety. Russia in turn made a number of concessions, including an offer to cut down its financial contribution from $6 to $3.7 billion for three PAK FA T-50 prototypes and substantial technology transfers.

According to senior Russian defense officials, the Russian Air Force could possibly start receiving the first serial-produced fifth-generation T-50 (PAK FA) multi-role fighter jet in 2018.
SOURCE

Why would they need anything from Russia? According to some indians on PDF, they are more scientifically & technologically advanced than the West, Russia & China.

 

[CaptainJackSparrow]

https://thewire.in/68202/rafale-deal-emblematic-modi-trying-fix-indias-defence-industry/

“I also feel like having a BMW and Mercedes. But I don’t because I can’t afford it… So, 126 Rafales was economically unviable. It was not required,” defence minister Manohar Parrikar was reported to have said last year, when asked about the previous government’s plan to buy over a hundred Rafale fighter jets."


Read it, digest it. You dont have the money that you been bragging about all these years. I am sure your defense minister albeit ex, knows a lot more about present state of India against some arm chair warrior having wishful thinking.

That's why they call it 'checks-and-balances' genius. They get enough funds. They just can't agree on how to spend them.

If they want to buy 126 aircraft, they can buy 126 aircraft. It's just the matter of agreeing to buy. They have bought far more expensive stuff before.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

That's why they call it 'checks-and-balances' genius. They get enough funds. They just can't agree on how to spend them.

If they want to buy 126 aircraft, they can buy 126 aircraft. It's just the matter of agreeing to buy. They have bought far more expensive stuff before.

Sunshine, what the statement "I CANT AFFORD IT" mean to you in your understanding of English taught to you in your Indian schools?

"Checks and Balances". LOL. After going about donkey years, chest thumping about how India will buy 125 planes, it all came crushing down, simple because you "cannot afford it".

This is the same case with this Russian jet as well.

 

[CaptainJackSparrow]

Sunshine, what the statement "I CANT AFFORD IT" mean to you in your understanding of English thought to you in your Indian schools?

"Checks and Balances". LOL. After going about donkey years, chest thumping about how India will buy 125 planes, it all came crushing down, simple because you "cannot afford it".

This is the same case with this Russian jet as well.

A lot of statements have been made by a lot of ministers regarding this same issue, cupcake. A statement is one man's opinion. A process of procurement is an institution's opinion.

I take institution's opinions a lot more seriously than an individual's opinions.

You can't take a process of procuring 126 jets to such an advanced stage if you don't have money in your pocket. Even the suppliers won't respond if they think India doesn't have the money.

 

[MultaniGuy]

LOL,

Russia was just milking India.

Too bad. LOL

Hopefully Pakistan will get J-31s.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

A lot of statements have been made by a lot of ministers regarding this same issue, cupcake. A statement is one man's opinion. A process of procurement is an institution's opinion.

I take institution's opinions a lot more seriously than an individual's opinions.

You can't take a process of procuring 126 jets to such an advanced stage if you don't have money in your pocket. Even the suppliers won't respond if they think India doesn't have the money.

Sweety, he was your defense minister and if your claims of being a democracy are to be believed , he is the head of all your defence forces. He is the most relevant person on the subject.

Rest is just your blabbering which you as a state is being doing for all these years.

 

[ranadd]

Sweety, he was your defense minister and if your claims of being a democracy are to be believed , he is the head of all your defence forces. He is the most relevant person on the subject.

Rest is just your blabbering which you as a state is being doing for all these years.

You call him sweety and yet so mean. Be nice to others.

What he said is true. You are taking a literal translation of what the minister said. India cannot afford to spend 7Billion, which is a huge amount by the way, when there is no value. India as a country is trying to develop its own industry. If billions keep going to other countries, how will things get better home?. 11 SP LCA's are on jigs as I type this, if you have not heard this yet.

Also, You do understand that the government wont cut a check for 7billion r8? or 20 billion for the Rafale as you pointed out. The payments are spread over 5 to 10 years. Target for defense is 2 to 3% of the GDP. GDP is over 2400B$ now. CAPEX per year range from 5 to 10B$.