India Requires Russia, S. Korea to Partner With Local Firms in Helo Contest

[sancho]

It would make sense if HAL's and a pvt entity's production lines are churning out LCA simultaneously surely that would suit the IAF.

True, but then HAL would produce MK2s too, but the report suggested diverting the MK2 production completelly as I understood it. But then again, the costs will be crucial, setting up to production lines, are there enough orders to cover 2 production lines and what production rate is needed? All this will be important for privat partners to invest in such a project and the government needs to keep the costs under control too.
Just as in M-MRCA, not everything that suits IAF needs to be done, since they are not the decision maker. The can request things, but that's it.

 

[sathya]

India’s HAL Secures Site for Light Utility Helicopter Production
By Andrew Drwiega, International Bureau Chief

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will begin the production of Light Utility Helicopters (LUH) in a new facility located near Bangalore, India in three and a half years according to reports in the Indian media.

The Hindu online reported that HAL received documents for 610 acres of land around the town of Gubbi in the state of Karnataka, around 55 miles north of Bangalore. Mallikarjuna Swamy, a consultant to HAL said that the construction of the facility would begin once power lines had been relocated.

He said that the helicopters would be in the three tons class and would be for use by the Indian Army and Air Force. Annual manufacturing output was expected to be around 50 helicopters.

India’s current fleet of Army Aerospatiale Alouette IIIs (Chetak) and Aerospatiale SA315B Lama Cheetah) helicopters are still operating despite being well beyond their planned out-of-service dates. Their continued use has become of such concern due to the high number of crashes and fatalities that a group of Indian Army officers' wives have formed a group to lobby the government for flying on both types to be halted immediately.

Rotor & Wing Magazine :: India’s HAL Secures Site for Light Utility Helicopter Production


so the expected timeline for the production to begin is 2018-19
at 50 per year, in 8 years 400 can be done by 2026-27
i think this is fast by HAL standards, Dhurv is taking even longer timeline.

 

[Echo_419]

India’s HAL Secures Site for Light Utility Helicopter Production
By Andrew Drwiega, International Bureau Chief

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will begin the production of Light Utility Helicopters (LUH) in a new facility located near Bangalore, India in three and a half years according to reports in the Indian media.

The Hindu online reported that HAL received documents for 610 acres of land around the town of Gubbi in the state of Karnataka, around 55 miles north of Bangalore. Mallikarjuna Swamy, a consultant to HAL said that the construction of the facility would begin once power lines had been relocated.

He said that the helicopters would be in the three tons class and would be for use by the Indian Army and Air Force. Annual manufacturing output was expected to be around 50 helicopters.

India’s current fleet of Army Aerospatiale Alouette IIIs (Chetak) and Aerospatiale SA315B Lama Cheetah) helicopters are still operating despite being well beyond their planned out-of-service dates. Their continued use has become of such concern due to the high number of crashes and fatalities that a group of Indian Army officers' wives have formed a group to lobby the government forflying on both types to be halted immediately.

Rotor & Wing Magazine :: India’s HAL Secures Site for Light Utility Helicopter Production


so the expected timeline for the production to begin is 2018-19
at 50 per year, in 8 years 400 can be done by 2026-27
i think this is fast by HAL standards, Dhurv is taking even longer timeline.

Let's hope they go for HAL choppers in more numbers

 

[MilSpec]

If HAL is smart (@sandy_3126), they team up with a privat partner now and offer joint production of their LUH with orders than going up to 400. Wonder what the government would do then? Supporting the indigenous option with a privat partner, or supporting the manufacturing of foreign helicopters?

Private partner for HAL is not a problem it has had several, RAC, Mikoyan, Sukhoi OKB, later Irkut, BAE, Snecma, Eads, and HAL has a proven track record of working will all Private firm. With 50% allowed investment from foreign firms, the job for HAL to find a private partner would be easy with enough intellectual capital to get the project to fruition.

But finding a Indian partner would be quite difficult, whom should HAL partner with? tata? Mahindra? bajaj? I am all for Indian private organisations to walk up to the challenge, the question is who has the guts to step up for an aircraft/ aero engine/ avionics/?

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Private partner for HAL is not a problem it has had several, RAC, Mikoyan, Sukhoi OKB, later Irkut, BAE, Snecma, Eads, and HAL has a proven track record of working will all Private firm. With 50% allowed investment from foreign firms, the job for HAL to find a private partner would be easy with enough intellectual capital to get the project to fruition.

But finding a Indian partner would be quite difficult, whom should HAL partner with? tata? Mahindra? bajaj? I am all for Indian private organisations to walk up to the challenge, the question is who has the guts to step up for an aircraft/ aero engine/ avionics/?

HAL is already working with a private firm for avionics for example

and have shown more offerings. Some which are next gen.

Among others

 

[MilSpec]

HAL is already working with a private firm for avionics for example
Among others

Not a recent Phenomenon, HAL has been working on air systems, and ground systems with KPCL, L&T since the 90's. The bottom line is members here think HAL should bring in TATA and Mahindras, and suddenly Indian aerospace will compete with Big wigs. Imo that simply is unrealistic.

An organisation like HAL can help develop organisations like samtel, L&T with JV's in subsystem, but for a big ticket item, it needs organisation which can technologically stand up to it, like a RAC or LM. not tata and mahindra.

As far as local firms working with foriegn partners are concerned, I am all for it, where is the Avro replacement right now?

 

[illuminatidinesh]

Not a recent Phenomenon, HAL has been working on air systems, and ground systems with KPCL, L&T since the 90's. The bottom line is members here think HAL should bring in TATA and Mahindras, and suddenly Indian aerospace will compete with Big wigs. Imo that simply is unrealistic.

An organisation like HAL can help develop organisations like samtel, L&T with JV's in subsystem, but for a big ticket item, it needs organisation which can technologically stand up to it, like a RAC or LM. not tata and mahindra.

As far as local firms working with foriegn partners are concerned, I am all for it, where is the Avro replacement right now?

Yes Private means everyone think Indian Private company.... but do they have wat it takes to be good aero space experience? Apart from building some cabins?

 

[sancho]

But finding a Indian partner would be quite difficult, whom should HAL partner with? tata? Mahindra? bajaj?

TATA would be the best choice, since they already showing good performance in the production of helicopter parts, but that also makes them to a preferable partner for any foreign vendor in the LUH tender. So HAL would have to act fast and push hard to convince TATA from the benefits of teaming up with them.

the question is who has the guts to step up for an aircraft/ aero engine/ avionics/?

What for? The engine will be a modified Shakti version. The point was, that the new government has an agenda to divert production to the privat industry and away from HAL, that's why the LUH tender for the forces, now is diverted from HAL as the manufacturer in India, to a Indian privat partner, the foreign vendors have to team up now. So if HAL now makes the first step, by presenting a privat partner on their own, they might be able to convince the government to not buy a foreign LUH at all and give the complete order to HAL and it's privat partner.

 

[MilSpec]

TATA would be the best choice, since they already showing good performance in the production of helicopter parts, but that also makes them to a preferable partner for any foreign vendor in the LUH tender. So HAL would have to act fast and push hard to convince TATA from the benefits of teaming up with them

What has tata developed w.r.t. any aero systems. If Tata is fabricator for foriegn firm, good for them, but they havent done any development work for any fixed or rotary wing aircrafts, an thus why should HAL work with an organisation which bring zero technical advantage to the table. Sure HAL needs a private partner, but all I see as a private partner might be Rosoboron-RAC/ Finmecca, Eads etc. Not TATA! Building cabins is not a issue that HAL faces, assuming TATA is worlds best fabricator of Heli Cabins, HAL can use it as vendor to ousource some work, not a JV partner.

What for? The engine will be a modified Shakti version. The point was, that the new government has an agenda to divert production to the privat industry and away from HAL, that's why the LUH tender for the forces, now is diverted from HAL as the manufacturer in India, to a Indian privat partner, the foreign vendors have to team up now. So if HAL now makes the first step, by presenting a privat partner on their own, they might be able to convince the government to not buy a foreign LUH at all and give the complete order to HAL and it's privat partner.

my comment was not just limited to LUH but to defence aviation systems in general

As far as HAL is concerned about the LUH, it is HAL's prerogative, if it wants a JV with any Indian private company. As far as I can see I dont see anyone in a distant horizon in the Indian private sector to take up any such project, HAL's LUH will benefit private sector as it comes with bonus for Indian vendors to furnish subsystems for the craft like samtel etc.


I thought it was about opening up the competition to PSU's, it seems the route followed is to keep HAL out of competitions, If the private industry is so keen on getting into Indian defence sector they need to compete with HAL, OFB BDL, etc.

 

[cirr]

A superpower should make its own helicopters。

 

[ni8mare]

A superpower should make its own helicopters。

we are making it.......HAL LUH| Updates and Discussions

 

[jha]

TATA would be the best choice, since they already showing good performance in the production of helicopter parts, but that also makes them to a preferable partner for any foreign vendor in the LUH tender. So HAL would have to act fast and push hard to convince TATA from the benefits of teaming up with them.



What for? The engine will be a modified Shakti version. The point was, that the new government has an agenda to divert production to the privat industry and away from HAL, that's why the LUH tender for the forces, now is diverted from HAL as the manufacturer in India, to a Indian privat partner, the foreign vendors have to team up now. So if HAL now makes the first step, by presenting a privat partner on their own, they might be able to convince the government to not buy a foreign LUH at all and give the complete order to HAL and it's privat partner.

HAL is not looking for a private partner for LUH production as they have already identified a site near Tumkur (Baangalore ) for a facility dedicated for LUH. Land has been transferred to HAL and the production facility is being developed.

 

[sancho]

As far as HAL is concerned about the LUH, it is HAL's prerogative, if it wants a JV with any Indian private company.

You are looking at it only from the point of view of jointly developing, but that's not what I was talking about, nor is that the need of the hour for HAL to meed the demands of the new government.
They have too meet the agenda of the MoD to have an Indian privat partner for the production of the LUH, only then they could convince the government to forget about foreign LUH and completely stick to HAL's LUH.

I thought it was about opening up the competition to PSU's, it seems the route followed is to keep HAL out of competitions, If the private industry is so keen on getting into Indian defence sector they need to compete with HAL, OFB BDL, etc.

That would be the ideal scenario, but that's not the case so far. Neither is the privat industry eager to invest and commit themself to the Indian defence market, nor is the government interested in remaining with the monopoly of state owned companies. That's why it's important for HAL to team up with privat partners, to cover the demand of the MoD and to remain in the game. In fact, HAL now has the chance to show it's own importance, by developing aircrafts on it's own (without ADA / DRDO), supported by a privat partner. As I told you before, AMCA is a perfect chance to offer a counter proposal to ADA / DRDO and they could do it by taking an Indian privat partner in.

HAL is not looking for a private partner for LUH production as they have already identified a site near Tumkur (Baangalore ) for a facility dedicated for LUH. Land has been transferred to HAL and the production facility is being developed.

I know, based on their order for 187 LUHs, but I am talking about the tender of 197 foreign LUH, that the government wants to divert to a privat industry player. If HAL now teams up with a privat partner to comply to MoDs demands, they could offer to supply 400 of their LUH, instead of buying 2 types. Time as said is not a factor anymore, since the scrapping of the foreign LUH deal now has delayed the tender to pretty much the same time when HAL's one will be ready, so all HAL has to do now is, getting a privat partner on board for the production.

 

[MilSpec]

I know, based on their order for 187 LUHs, but I am talking about the tender of 197 foreign LUH, that the government wants to divert to a privat industry player. If HAL now teams up with a privat partner to comply to MoDs demands, they could offer to supply 400 of their LUH, instead of buying 2 types. Time as said is not a factor anymore, since the scrapping of the foreign LUH deal now has delayed the tender to pretty much the same time when HAL's one will be ready, so all HAL has to do now is, getting a privat partner on board for the production.

What does a private player bring to the table for HAL LUH's production.... Design is HAL's, Process Planning is HAL's, Supplier base is HAL's, Airframe is HAL's, MRP is HAL's, CAE is HAL's, Production Design is HAL's. Engine is HAL's, Avionics and ancillaries is of HAL's... Why should it bring a private player in this......


For AMCA, HAL is capable of fielding a 5 th gen fighter with a private player, not a local one though.... that too with minimal time lead time, PMF-FGFA... It will be capable of doing everything and more that AMCA can with a proven engine, avionics, AESA radar, TVC, supercruise, super maneuverability, sensor fusion and LRAAM, MRAAM.

 

[sancho]

What does a private player bring to the table for HAL LUH's production.... Design is HAL's, Process Planning is HAL's, Supplier base is HAL's, Airframe is HAL's, MRP is HAL's, CAE is HAL's, Production Design is HAL's. Engine is HAL's, Avionics and ancillaries is of HAL's... Why should it bring a private player in this......

Because that's the new agenda of the government! If HAL wants to counter that and not be left out, they have to get privat Indian partners, as simple as that.