India | Preparing for a 'two front war' against China & Pakistan.

[janon]

Building domestic military industry is very costly and takes tremendous political will. After all, we are talking billions and billions of dollars having to be invested after billions and billions having already been spent on foreign weapons. Being a democratic country, can your politicians take the pressure and follow it through?

Being a democracy or not has nothing to do with it. In my post I gave the example of the USA which built a massive military industrial complex during and after the world wars, and the USA was very much a democracy. It only helps that the people on top are directly answerable to the people.

What hinders India is its confounded bureaucracy - the bloated, inefficient, painfully slow bureaucratic machine that holds up progress in all fields. Once that issue is addressed, most of India's problems will vanish. Not just regarding military affairs, but overall development.

Also, note that with a customer the size of India's armed forces, the return on investment will always be high. That is, no matter how many billions we invest to build a defence industry, we will save a lot more when they deliver, due to the economy of scale. So while it may not be economically viable for Sri Lanka or Australia to invest in a large MIC, that is not true for India.

And building a good MIC is not all that expensive a proposition as you make it out to be. I'm not saying that India has to establish the likes of a boeing or a Lockheed-martin or Raytheon within the next decade. It can be a gradual process, rising up in the value chain. We have made a start toward that by manufacturing all large volume purchases ourselves, through ToT and offsets. If we can keep increasing the domestic content of our hardware, and decreasing imports, in a decade or two we would have achieved some form of self sufficiency. Being completely self reliant will take a long time, and in fact may not even be that important or viable.

 

[IND151]

It's not that simple. Look at military expenditure in three forms - salaries of the armed forces personnel, building up of infrastructure, and acquisition of weapons and platforms. The first one is not something India cannot afford - it's not like India is short of manpower, or that recruiting more soldiers will take away the labor force from doing something more productive. Because across the subcontinent, labor is cheap, and unemployment is high, so spending money on training people in the profession of soldiering, and paying their salaries is anyway better than distributing the money through welfare schemes.

About the second part, buildup of infrastructure. As China has shown, that can have a dual benefit, not only of building military capability, but also of improving the economy in many ways. Through direct employment, and through the resultant increase in productivity due to better infrastructure. The northeastern part of India is severely lacking in rail and road infra, and developing these will lead to a long term economic benefit for the region.

In developed countries, both the above aspects work differently. Labor is not available aplenty, so diverting the workforce to the military will harm the productivity. And there is already good civil infrastructure, so spending money for military bases will not bring any economic benefit. Both these points are not true for developing nations, and military spending can actually have economic and social benefits.

The third aspect is tricky. The one about procuring expensive weapons systems. If India continues to depend on imports, then there is a problem in that it is money that is going out of the country with no benefit to the people, other than defence. On the other hand, if we look at it as a blessing in disguise, and build up a good domestic military industrial complex, then that will also benefit our industries and economy in the long run. It was during and after the world wars that the USA became a superpower, and the biggest reason was the military industrial machine it built up.

That's very true

More roads are needed in North East and they should be connected to a four lane highway passing west bengal and which is connected Golden Quadrilateral trough Kolkata

 

[rcrmj]

primitive Indian with clueless policy, there can be no sanity coming from them.

when 90% people 'enjoy' living in that incoherent slums with disease, random sexual assault, no education, no clean water, no social justice and those people are imprisoned from modern civilized world yearning for a better life with basics, yet those 1% high caste ruling families are so pretentious, that somehow to convince those uneducated mass that India is a 'promising' land``!

hopeless is the accurate word I can use to describe my thoughts every time in India

 

[third eye]

primitive Indian with clueless policy, there can be no sanity coming from them.

when 90% people 'enjoy' living in that incoherent slums with disease, random sexual assault, no education, no clean water, no social justice and those people are imprisoned from modern civilized world yearning for a better life with basics, yet those 1% high caste ruling families are so pretentious, that somehow to convince those uneducated mass that India is a 'promising' land``!

hopeless is the accurate word I can use to describe my thoughts every time in India

Now that you have made your point..run along now

 

[janon]

primitive Indian with clueless policy, there can be no sanity coming from them.

when 90% people 'enjoy' living in that incoherent slums with disease, random sexual assault, no education, no clean water, no social justice and those people are imprisoned from modern civilized world yearning for a better life with basics, yet those 1% high caste ruling families are so pretentious, that somehow to convince those uneducated mass that India is a 'promising' land``!

hopeless is the accurate word I can use to describe my thoughts every time in India

Congratulation, you just earned yourself:

I suppose I should post this sort of drivel in the Pakistan defence sections, and see how fast a ban for "posts of no value" gets handed out.

Anyway, you have to hand it to these paid trolls. They are as robotic minded zombies as their unelected rulers wants them to be. Its always the same cadence in any thread about India : "slums, disease, poverty, starvation, toilets, primitive, brahministic tyranny, rape, no water, high caste oppressing low caste..." They can post these buzzwords in any thread on any topic, whether it is about a mountain strike corps, or multirole combat aircrafts, or satellite launch, or Agni missiles, or counter insurgency. It doesn't matter to them, as long as they make a post with these buzzwords and soundbytes, regardless of the topic or context, they will earn their pay, and the glories of an internet victory for that day.

A typical paid troll at work:

I have an idea. Everytime we open a thread in the Indian defence section, we should copy-paste these stock phrases under it, so as to save the 50 centers the trouble, and save some forum bandwidth.

@WebMaster @nuclearpak @Jungibaaz : Do these sort of posters really add enough value to the forum to keep them around? Anyway, it has now become entertaining for us, so I'm not complaining. Every Shakespearean play had a fool performing during the interludes, entertaining the playgoers with gibberish. Similarly I suppose any serious discussion needs these fellows to provide some much needed light moments where we can laugh at them. After all, why should these threads be of too high quality, right?

 

[seven7seven]

if you are educated in warfare, you will realize that economy and industry is only one of the many important factors. there are a lot more such as terrain, manpower, strategic locations, tactical locations, will of the people of both countries and the territory being fought over, infrastructure, doctrine, culture, etc where india holds significant advantages in most areas

I think you're missing the point of my post. The post wasn't about who I thought had the strategic upper hand in the dispute. My post was purely alluding to my own personal view of what China's intentions for a military build up along the Indian border are.

Now moving onto your points where you believe you have advantages over China. Every facet you have mentioned, it is highly debatable you hold an edge in any of the areas you claim. Indians have to be more realistic and self-appraise your current situation not through rose-tinted, patriotic glasses. The Chinese are always a few steps ahead of you because they have decisive leadership and a coherent overall plan for its military and economy. India needs to stop this obsessionof trying to keep up with China because at the moment, the two Nations are fundamentally at very different stages of development. Buying weapons that are as good as China's does not make you as powerful as China, not when India's foundation is not based on a sound economy. A sound economy requires investment in domestic infrastructure, manufacturing facilities and cutting-edge R&D. China is more than happy that you spend tens of billions on foreign weapons, when investing it into building the Indian economy would frighten China far more. India does have the potential to rival China, but they being played by China and the West and Russia are happy to keep selling you overpriced weapons. The Indian Government is happy to keep the status quo as weapons deals line all their pockets. It's up to the average Indian to ask for meaningful reforms and investment in domestic projects that have short-term pains but have sustainable, long-term economic benefits.

 

[Shinigami]

I think you're missing the point of my post. The post wasn't about who I thought had the strategic upper hand in the dispute. My post was purely alluding to my own personal view of what China's intentions for a military build up along the Indian border are.

Now moving onto your points where you believe you have advantages over China. Every facet you have mentioned, it is highly debatable you hold an edge in any of the areas you claim. Indians have to be more realistic and self-appraise your current situation not through rose-tinted, patriotic glasses. The Chinese are always a few steps ahead of you because they have decisive leadership and a coherent overall plan for its military and economy. India needs to stop this obsessionof trying to keep up with China because at the moment, the two Nations are fundamentally at very different stages of development. Buying weapons that are as good as China's does not make you as powerful as China, not when India's foundation is not based on a sound economy. A sound economy requires investment in domestic infrastructure, manufacturing facilities and cutting-edge R&D. China is more than happy that you spend tens of billions on foreign weapons, when investing it into building the Indian economy would frighten China far more. India does have the potential to rival China, but they being played by China and the West and Russia are happy to keep selling you overpriced weapons. The Indian Government is happy to keep the status quo as weapons deals line all their pockets. It's up to the average Indian to ask for meaningful reforms and investment in domestic projects that have short-term pains but have sustainable, long-term economic benefits.

i disagree with some parts

Every facet you have mentioned, it is highly debatable you hold an edge in any of the areas you claim.

terrain, strategic locations, tactical locations, will of the people of the territory being fought over, doctrine, culture

these are the areas where india has the advantage. let me know which factor you want to emphasize.

Indians have to be more realistic and self-appraise your current situation not through rose-tinted, patriotic glasses.

your kidding right? have you seen how your countrymen behave here?

Buying weapons that are as good as China's does not make you as powerful as China

the weapons india makes and india buys are for the most part superior to the chinese ones.

China is more than happy that you spend tens of billions on foreign weapons, when investing it into building the Indian economy would frighten China far more.

india spends 2% of the GDP on defence. thats nothing for a country threatened by 2 nuclear powers

The Indian Government is happy to keep the status quo as weapons deals line all their pockets. It's up to the average Indian to ask for meaningful reforms and investment in domestic projects that have short-term pains but have sustainable, long-term economic benefits.

common misconception. as i said, india spends just 2% of the GDP on defence. the actual problem of the economy lies elsewhere

 

[seven7seven]

i disagree with some parts



terrain, strategic locations, tactical locations, will of the people of the territory being fought over, doctrine, culture

these are the areas where india has the advantage. let me know which factor you want to emphasize.



your kidding right? have you seen how your countrymen behave here?


the weapons india makes and india buys are for the most part superior to the chinese ones.



india spends 2% of the GDP on defence. thats nothing for a country threatened by 2 nuclear powers



common misconception. as i said, india spends just 2% of the GDP on defence. the actual problem of the economy lies elsewhere

Stopshifting the onus on to me to explain India's shortfalls. Explain to me why you believe India has advantages in the areas you state.

I'm not Chinese.I am British but grew up in Hong Kong so I sympathise more with Chinese outlook but I have nothing against India. My comments are trying to be constructive towards India.

Again, very debatable if you believe Indian weapons are superior to China's. I have tendencyto believe China downplays their weapons capability and Westerners and Indians are more than willing to go along with this train of thought. Only in a real battle scenario will you know if your weapons are superior to China's.

GDP is a figure that represents gross revenue of an economy but it is not the tax income your Government eventually gets to spend, which is only a small fraction of the GDP figure. So yes, spending tens of billions of your people's taxes on overpriced foreign weapons, when it could be used to benefit your economy, is wasteful. China is playing on your insecurity as a nation and is very happy that you are prioritising defence over your economy.

 

[Shinigami]

Stopshifting the onus on to me to explain India's shortfalls. Explain to me why you believe India has advantages in the areas you state.

I'm not Chinese.I am British but grew up in Hong Kong so I sympathise more with Chinese outlook but I have nothing against India. My comments are trying to be constructive towards India.

Again, very debatable if you believe Indian weapons are superior to China's. I have tendencyto believe China downplays their weapons capability and Westerners and Indians are more than willing to go along with this train of thought. Only in a real battle scenario will you know if your weapons are superior to China's.

GDP is a figure that represents gross revenue of an economy but it is not the tax income your Government eventually gets to spend, which is only a small fraction of the GDP figure. So yes, spending tens of billions of your people's taxes on overpriced foreign weapons, when it could be used to benefit your economy, is wasteful. China is playing on your insecurity as a nation and is very happy that you are prioritising defence over your economy.

i'll be brief.

terrain- mountainous in india's side. relatively flat in china's side. logistic nightmare for india but it works as an excellent defence. and a reasonable offence into the chinese side
strategic locations- chinese trade and supplies which is the heart of the economy go through indian ocean which india virtually dominates
tactical locations- choke points in the mountanous terrain
will of the people of the territory being fought over- tibetans and NE indians, both root for india over china
doctrine- human wave tactic (seen in the last chinese war) vs blitzkreig. coordinated assaults of armour and airborne troops (seen in the last indian war)
culture- kshatriya, which is a type of upper caste, form majority of the officer corps in the indian military. they have a war culture since ancient days.

Again, very debatable if you believe Indian weapons are superior to China's.

china spends a lot on military research because of US imposed tech denial as well as russian copyright issues, making them re invent the wheel. india can get a similar result for a fraction of the price due to TOT

GDP is a figure that represents gross revenue of an economy but it is not the tax income your Government eventually gets to spend, which is only a small fraction of the GDP figure. So yes, spending tens of billions of your people's taxes on overpriced foreign weapons, when it could be used to benefit your economy, is wasteful. China is playing on your insecurity as a nation and is very happy you are prioritising defence over your economy.

again, read what i wrote

india spends 2% of the GDP on defence. thats nothing for a country threatened with and attacked by 2 nuclear powers

 

[seven7seven]

i'll be brief.

terrain- mountainous in india's side. relatively flat in china's side. logistic nightmare for india but it works as an excellent defence. and a reasonable offence into the chinese side
strategic locations- chinese trade and supplies which is the heart of the economy go through indian ocean which india virtually dominates
tactical locations- choke points in the mountanous terrain
will of the people of the territory being fought over- tibetans and NE indians, both root for india over china
doctrine- human wave tactic (seen in the last chinese war) vs blitzkreig. coordinated assaults of armour and airborne troops (seen in the last indian war)
culture- kshatriya, which is a type of upper caste, form majority of the officer corps in the indian military. they have a war culture since ancient days.

china spends a lot on military research because of US imposed tech denial as well as russian copyright issues, making them re invent the wheel. india can get a similar result for a fraction of the price due to TOT



again, read what i wrote

india spends 2% of the GDP on defence. thats nothing for a country threatened with and attacked by 2 nuclear powers

Look,we're going to have to agree to disagree on your points of what you see as advantages.

Your current system of weapons acquisitions is not conducive to building a strong indigenous military industry. India does not get all the TOT of certain critical technology and do not possess the state-of-the-art R&D facilities and personnel, and hi-tech manufacturing facilities to take advantage of the TOT they do receive. Indigenous fighter jet and naval projects all suffer long delays, cost overruns and heavy reliance of foreign sources for key components to build your so called 'indigenous' systems. It's self-deluding if you believe this is an efficient system.

You are clearly not getting the point of what the difference between GDP and Government income is.

 

[faithfulguy]

i'll be brief.

terrain- mountainous in india's side. relatively flat in china's side. logistic nightmare for india but it works as an excellent defence. and a reasonable offence into the chinese side
strategic locations- chinese trade and supplies which is the heart of the economy go through indian ocean which india virtually dominates
tactical locations- choke points in the mountanous terrain
will of the people of the territory being fought over- tibetans and NE indians, both root for india over china
doctrine- human wave tactic (seen in the last chinese war) vs blitzkreig. coordinated assaults of armour and airborne troops (seen in the last indian war)
culture- kshatriya, which is a type of upper caste, form majority of the officer corps in the indian military. they have a war culture since ancient days.

china spends a lot on military research because of US imposed tech denial as well as russian copyright issues, making them re invent the wheel. india can get a similar result for a fraction of the price due to TOT



again, read what i wrote

india spends 2% of the GDP on defence. thats nothing for a country threatened with and attacked by 2 nuclear powers

Bunch of bull crap. for terrain, China holds the high ground. They are going to attack down hill. how is that an advantage for India? You know nothing about terrain in warfare.

As for Indian Ocean. Its own by the US navy. If India start to intercept ships there, it would have to handle the US navy.

As for tactical location. This must be something you invent yourself.

As for the will of the people, this would be an opportunity for Indians in various states to split up.

finally, you must be desperate to bring up culture using caste. Caste system itself is one of the weakest point of Indian culture and it make the society immobile. It would also make Indian army immobile as well.

The point is that the only way India has any chance against China is to allow US troops to station around the India/China border. Otherwise, India has no chance.

 

[acid rain]

Bunch of bull crap. for terrain, China holds the high ground. They are going to attack down hill. how is that an advantage for India? You know nothing about terrain in warfare.

As for Indian Ocean. Its own by the US navy. If India start to intercept ships there, it would have to handle the US navy.

As for tactical location. This must be something you invent yourself.

As for the will of the people, this would be an opportunity for Indians in various states to split up.

finally, you must be desperate to bring up culture use caste. Caste system itself is one of the weakest point of Indian culture and it make the society immobile. It would also make Indian army immobile as well.

The point is that the only way India has any chance against China is to allow US troops to station around the India/China border. Otherwise, India has no chance.

Technical discussions are not for you...keep to what you do best...i.e. posting cr@p especially the 2030 movie scene.

 

[jetti]

Bunch of bull crap. for terrain, China holds the high ground. They are going to attack down hill. how is that an advantage for India? You know nothing about terrain in warfare.

As for Indian Ocean. Its own by the US navy. If India start to intercept ships there, it would have to handle the US navy.

As for tactical location. This must be something you invent yourself.

As for the will of the people, this would be an opportunity for Indians in various states to split up.

finally, you must be desperate to bring up culture use caste. Caste system itself is one of the weakest point of Indian culture and it make the society immobile. It would also make Indian army immobile as well.

The point is that the only way India has any chance against China is to allow US troops to station around the India/China border. Otherwise, India has no chance.

why would china attack india?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

i'll be brief.

terrain- mountainous in india's side. relatively flat in china's side. logistic nightmare for india but it works as an excellent defence. and a reasonable offence into the chinese side
strategic locations- chinese trade and supplies which is the heart of the economy go through indian ocean which india virtually dominates
tactical locations- choke points in the mountanous terrain
will of the people of the territory being fought over- tibetans and NE indians, both root for india over china
doctrine- human wave tactic (seen in the last chinese war) vs blitzkreig. coordinated assaults of armour and airborne troops (seen in the last indian war)
culture- kshatriya, which is a type of upper caste, form majority of the officer corps in the indian military. they have a war culture since ancient days.

china spends a lot on military research because of US imposed tech denial as well as russian copyright issues, making them re invent the wheel. india can get a similar result for a fraction of the price due to TOT

That is hilarious.

You twist the facts so much that from your post it almost looks like India has the advantage.

But the Indian Army is on record saying that "India cannot possibly match China" and that "the gap between the two is growing faster every day".

So who is delusional, internet fanboys or the Indian army?

 

[faithfulguy]

why would china attack india?

China would not attack India. neither would India attack China. However, India do regard China as enemy #1.

I'm just responding to that Shinigami's delusional military statements.