India - Pakistan conflict analysis - aims, tactics, strategy, results

[The Terminator]

Right, perhaps we have a different point of view, because even in this formulation I have not seen what you are describing, the shooting of olive branches from a barrel of a gun. Please remember, everyone has been at pains to paint the Pakistan army as a rogue element, historically we have been very poor in countering this, but I've not read or heard any such description for the past few years.

I do not think the people throwing false accusations have changed, but it seems our approach has, that approach may feel different siting within Pakistan, but I can assure you there is a palpable difference in how Pakistan military is viewed abroad, that has come from the change of approach you are describing. Sometimes the right approach can feel wrong, but if it gets you results, then it is the right approach.


"Not nuking China is as much a joke as Pakistan saying to Canada that we won't occupy you."

This is not about equivalence, again please, correct lessons are important. it does not matter if America was going to nuke China or not, this is not about that.
The point is, he went over the head of his chief executive, and called the enemy. He felt sufficiently confident enough to do that knowing nothing would happen to him. It is about the military over stepping its bounds, safely ignoring the constitution and entering the realm of political authority. These are the lessons, that such things do happen and more, but the world doesn't cry about it like we do, we need to stop our obsession with the military and politics.

If Bajwa had called India with that same message, it would have been front page news in Pakistan for decades to come, every discussion would have ended with, but Bajwa called India. That incident was barely news in America or anywhere else. and, it has already been forgotten. There are lessons, and we have to, we must learn those lessons.

In that phone call there are so many lessons, so many pointers. The point is that Pakistanis need to get over the obsession will the military and live their lives, this obsession creates an extremely bad image abroad, and it weakens the authority of civilians domestically and abroad, which is also bad for the country.
Perhaps we should start a new thread because I feel uncomfortable discussing this here, this is a beautiful thread that I do not wish to derail.

May be in case of US you would know far better than me. But in Pakistan's case, military establishment is the real Govt and that's a fact no one can't ignore. Why the highest levels of delegations either from US or China meet PAK Army Chief. Because they know, whenever you wanna get something done it's the military you should go to.

I have never heard some senior official from abroad came to US and met with US Army Chief or Naval Chief etc. Because there are people far more important than them. In Pakistan Govt there are many people outranking the services Chiefs constitutionally but they are either dumb puppets, incompetent or don't have any power to do decisions at highest levels.

So in that context our military and statements from DG ISPR are taken far more seriously than say the foreign office or ministry of interior.

US Army Chief might not sleep out of excitement after giving a statement containing nukes and China to poke his head out of his paying grade but Our Army Chief here started military operation Zarb e Azb bypassing the then PM without breaking a sweat. that's why military is taken obsessively in Pakistan by Pakistanis

 

[peagle]

May be in case of US you would know far better than me. But in Pakistan's case, military establishment is the real Govt and that's a fact no one can't ignore. Why the highest levels of delegations either from US or China meet PAK Army Chief. Because they know, whenever you wanna get something done it's the military you should go to.

I have never heard some senior official from abroad came to US and met with US Army Chief or Naval Chief etc. Because there are people far more important than them. In Pakistan Govt there are many people outranking the services Chiefs constitutionally but they are either dumb puppets, incompetent or don't have any power to do decisions at highest levels.

So in that context our military and statements from DG ISPR are taken far more seriously than say the foreign office or ministry of interior.

US Army Chief might not sleep out of excitement after giving a statement containing nukes and China to poke his head out of his paying grade but Our Army Chief here started military operation Zarb e Azb bypassing the then PM without breaking a sweat. that's why military is taken obsessively in Pakistan by Pakistanis

I strongly disagree with your interpretation of the issues you highlighted, but this is not the place to discuss them. Therefore I will not continue this discussion any longer. You're welcome to open a new thread and we can discuss till ours heart content.

I must emphasise that most Pakistanis have a habit of reaching for lazy conclusions, regarding their domestic issues, they play a role in creating an unstable image about themselves, it is truly sad.

 

[Waiting]

A very long pause, waiting though

 

[maverick1977]

India will never behave, Pakistan should conscript, 2-4 million youth and create heavy infantry divs, equipped with 85mm mortars, heavy calibre machine guns, 12.7mm along with ATGMs like Baktar Shikar mk2, and 20 sq of drones.
Should liberate kashmir and need be take dehli fort and liberate people of India by eliminating caste system

 

[Waiting]

India will never behave, Pakistan should conscript, 2-4 million youth and create heavy infantry divs, equipped with 85mm mortars, heavy calibre machine guns, 12.7mm along with ATGMs like Baktar Shikar mk2, and 20 sq of drones.
Should liberate kashmir and need be take dehli fort and liberate people of India by eliminating caste system

Thanx, a good start after long pause

 

[PanzerKiel]

 

[Joe Shearer]

View attachment 831041

"I deduce this is a married man, Watson. He has not been a gardener; notice the lack of callouses indicating previous use of cultivator, trowel or garden fork. He is also a military professional. Notice his careful disguise of a blue- and green-checked shirt. He may have had an excellent afternoon nap, dreaming of independent armoured brigades; he is quite clearly stretching to ensure that he doesn't pull a muscle reaching for his cup of tea."

 

[Joe Shearer]

India will never behave, Pakistan should conscript, 2-4 million youth and create heavy infantry divs, equipped with 85mm mortars, heavy calibre machine guns, 12.7mm along with ATGMs like Baktar Shikar mk2, and 20 sq of drones.
Should liberate kashmir and need be take dehli fort and liberate people of India by eliminating caste system

 

[PanzerKiel]

...so...from where we should continue now?

 

[Joe Shearer]

...so...from where we should continue now?

Dear Sir,

We have the following, in a short while, for your consideration in your role of Observer, so that we may be sure of our submission meeting criteria, prior to submitting them to the simulator management:

1. location-wise listing of formations at their intended locations after the changes and movements announced - we will be seeking validation of the formations listed, to avoid banning of any unknown or mistaken formation at a later stage;
2. equipment lists of these formations will be ready by tomorrow; the rates and quantities are ready, but they have to be compiled for each and every formation. We understand that these equipment inventories are needed for the simulator to be loaded and to react - here your approval of quantities for each formation is required;
   1. in view of the time-frame of the events, we shall seek detailed clarification regarding the possibility of (a) modifying the constitution of formations; (b) enhancing the equipment available due to two years of intermediate production and procurement - we would like to use the inevitable production and procurement of the interim period to modify and enhance our formation constitutions;
3. list of naval vessels and their locations is necessary; we need to know if their armament is required, or merely their types - approval of detail is needed;
4. list of aircraft, their types has already been submitted in a preliminary manner, and will be submitted finally later this evening - confirmation that nothing else is needed.

Will we be advised of any changes in the opposing ORBAT, as we have advised our changes by way of transfers and re-locations in a series of notes previously?

 

[meghdut]

Dear Sir,

We have the following, in a short while, for your consideration in your role of Observer, so that we may be sure of our submission meeting criteria, prior to submitting them to the simulator management:

1. location-wise listing of formations at their intended locations after the changes and movements announced - we will be seeking validation of the formations listed, to avoid banning of any unknown or mistaken formation at a later stage;
2. equipment lists of these formations will be ready by tomorrow; the rates and quantities are ready, but they have to be compiled for each and every formation. We understand that these equipment inventories are needed for the simulator to be loaded and to react - here your approval of quantities for each formation is required;
   1. in view of the time-frame of the events, we shall seek detailed clarification regarding the possibility of (a) modifying the constitution of formations; (b) enhancing the equipment available due to two years of intermediate production and procurement - we would like to use the inevitable production and procurement of the interim period to modify and enhance our formation constitutions;
3. list of naval vessels and their locations is necessary; we need to know if their armament is required, or merely their types - approval of detail is needed;
4. list of aircraft, their types has already been submitted in a preliminary manner, and will be submitted finally later this evening - confirmation that nothing else is needed.

Will we be advised of any changes in the opposing ORBAT, as we have advised our changes by way of transfers and re-locations in a series of notes previously?

Next evening please

 

[Joe Shearer]

Next evening please

#1, #2 and #2.1 are ready; perhaps you are asking for a pause for #3 and #4?

Without putting unnecessary pressure, we were supposed to be on D Day on Friday, and are already 36 hours late.

 

[meghdut]

#1, #2 and #2.1 are ready; perhaps you are asking for a pause for #3 and #4?

Without putting unnecessary pressure, we were supposed to be on D Day on Friday, and are already 36 hours late.

Fog of War, it’s inevitable

 

[Signalian]

"I deduce this is a married man, Watson. He has not been a gardener; notice the lack of callouses indicating previous use of cultivator, trowel or garden fork. He is also a military professional. Notice his careful disguise of a blue- and green-checked shirt. He may have had an excellent afternoon nap, dreaming of independent armoured brigades; he is quite clearly stretching to ensure that he doesn't pull a muscle reaching for his cup of tea."

Of all the things - you just couldn't read his hand lines even when they are directly in your face. They tell the future and the past.

Elementary, my dear Watson.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Of all the things - you just couldn't read his hand lines even when they are directly in your face. They tell the future and the past.

Elementary, my dear Watson.

I could, but didn't want to reveal it. There are stars, several of them. I was hoping for a private seance, and a suitably rewarding one. Of course, you had to mess it up. Just imagine, at some date in the future, I might have been paid fortunes for suggesting someone as External Affairs Minister