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India - Pakistan conflict analysis - aims, tactics, strategy, results

One of the aspects of Indo-Pakistani military encounters that I find most uncanny is the way in which the Pakistan Army or Pakistani irregulars were baulked again and again by the long arm of fate. Baramula in 47-48, the mid-battle replacement of General Malik in 65, General Eftekhar's accident in 71.....

Yeah, but i think fate intervened almost equally for both sides....
for Pakistan...Kutch agreement, Chawinda (25 Cavalry vs 1 Armored Brigade), Zafarwal (PA brigade minus against IA 14 Division), Lahore (22 Brigade / 10 Division counter attack from Ravi North towards south), Chengez Force 1971 in Shakergarh sector, actions of 24 Brigade and 8 IABG against Indian offensive in 1971, Fazilka / Sabuna 1971 against IA 67 IIB, 18 Division spoiling attack at Loganewala.... and later as we have already discussed, Pakistan's riposte to Brass Tacks (positioning of 1 and 2 Corps), Pakistan's counter to Op Trident, Parakaram...

two professional gentlemen

If two are professional and gentlemen both, then quality and constructive discussion is guaranteed.

Thanks, but that young man is streets ahead of me. I appreciate the equating, though; it's flattering, to say the least.

You do realise he's younger than my daughter? I hate to think of him facing our soldiers in a command position, in a few years' time.

Thirst for learning is one thing which i dont intend to quench.
 
Yeah, but i think fate intervened almost equally for both sides....
for Pakistan...Kutch agreement, Chawinda (25 Cavalry vs 1 Armored Brigade), Zafarwal (PA brigade minus against IA 14 Division), Lahore (22 Brigade / 10 Division counter attack from Ravi North towards south), Chengez Force 1971 in Shakergarh sector, actions of 24 Brigade and 8 IABG against Indian offensive in 1971, Fazilka / Sabuna 1971 against IA 67 IIB, 18 Division spoiling attack at Loganewala.... and later as we have already discussed, Pakistan's riposte to Brass Tacks (positioning of 1 and 2 Corps), Pakistan's counter to Op Trident, Parakaram...

Thought-provoking......

Chawinda, of course, is a classic, but it was cold feet on the part of (Indian) I Armoured Division Div. Commander, not any accident, and the sheer brass balls of 25 Cavalry, spreading itself across the path of a crack armoured division. The only parallel I can think of, other than HMS Glowworm, or the string bags attacking the Italian Fleet at Taranto, is the brazen attack by American (and Dutch) 'tin cans' in the Battle of the Coral Sea; the charge of the Light Brigade, but at sea.

Yeah, but i think fate intervened almost equally for both sides....
for Pakistan...Kutch agreement, Chawinda (25 Cavalry vs 1 Armored Brigade), Zafarwal (PA brigade minus against IA 14 Division), Lahore (22 Brigade / 10 Division counter attack from Ravi North towards south), Chengez Force 1971 in Shakergarh sector, actions of 24 Brigade and 8 IABG against Indian offensive in 1971, Fazilka / Sabuna 1971 against IA 67 IIB, 18 Division spoiling attack at Loganewala.... and later as we have already discussed, Pakistan's riposte to Brass Tacks (positioning of 1 and 2 Corps), Pakistan's counter to Op Trident, Parakaram...



If two are professional and gentlemen both, then quality and constructive discussion is guaranteed.



Thirst for learning is one thing which i dont intend to quench.

Do you not see the enormous value to the entire world if you were to engage in leading Saudi and Emirati troops into battle against the Houthis? Or perhaps a permanent UN peace-keeping assignment?:p:
 
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Chawinda, of course, is a classic, but it was cold feet on the part of (Indian) I Armoured Division Div. Commander, not any accident, and the sheer brass balls of 25 Cavalry, spreading itself across the path of a crack armoured division

Fate....for both sides.....if GOC 1 Armored DIvision could have used proper recce at the front of his division, he would have come to know that he was faced by 25 Cavalry only and would have swept this regiment aside.......same holds good for CO 25 Cavalry, if he would have known that he was facing the whole armored division, he might have been a bit defensive in his approach......
but then fate...1 Armored Division gets challenged by a lone armored regiment....a squadron each for the lead three armor regiments of the 1 Armored Division......Sparrow remains passive, Col Nisar goes head on and comes on top.

Do you not see the enormous value to the entire world if you were to engage in leading Saudi and Emirati troops into battle against the Houthis? Or perhaps a permanent UN peace-keeping assignment?:p:

Yes, but since we are discussing fate.....so in this case as well, fate will intervene.
 
Fate....for both sides.....if GOC 1 Armored DIvision could have used proper recce at the front of his division, he would have come to know that he was faced by 25 Cavalry only and would have swept this regiment aside.......same holds good for CO 25 Cavalry, if he would have known that he was facing the whole armored division, he might have been a bit defensive in his approach......
but then fate...1 Armored Division gets challenged by a long armored regiment....a squadron each for the lead three armor regiments of the 1 Armored Division......Sparrow remains passive, Col Nisar goes head on and comes on top.



Yes, but since we are discussing fate.....so in this case as well, fate will intervene.

<Damn. Rumbled.>
 
We have seen the prelude to the main engagements in 1965, almost the equivalent of a classical music quartet or a quintet to the entire symphonic orchestra of battles heard of elsewhere, even battles fought by the British Indian Army in Burma. Only 13 infantry battalions on the two sides combined, about 4 conventional divisions, 2 and a half armoured regiments, a Corps worth of artillery, sporadic interventions by the IAF. Nothing more than would constitute a skirmish in any campaign of the preceding WWII, or even the Korean War, with its massed infantry attacks combined skilfully with infiltration tactics to take apart far superior weaponry and a technology an order of magnitude higher.

But this was to change very shortly, as a second, and then a third Army Corps on the Indian side took on several divisions on the Pakistan side, and both sides fought like tigers to break the other side.

By the end of August, the Corps Commander Indian XV Corps evidently had had much to say to his Army Commander, the GOC-in-C Western Command, General Harbaksh Singh, and to his COAS, General Chaudhuri. Operation Grand Slam was the last straw; when 191 Brigade, weakened and demoralised by the preliminary engagements that deprived them of their CO, was shredded by General Malik's two Infantry Divisions, and two Armoured Regiments, and his artillery, even the reinforcing two brigades provided to support the nascent Indian 10th Division could not hold out against the onrushing enemy. Given a day's respite on the 2nd, they held out as long as they could on the 3rd and the 4th, until finally flesh and blood could take it no longer, and 41 Mountain Brigade regrouped behind their reserve brigade, 28 Brigade, and took position at Akhnur.

This was effectively the end of both Operation Gibraltar and Grand Slam, and left Indian XV Corps holding the Haji Pir Pass, but not the heights surrounding that feature, thus denying the Indian Army the use of the strategic Uri-Poonch Road; Indian 10 Division was left to hold out against the Pakistan Army 10 Brigade, 104 Brigade and
4 Azad Kashmir Brigade, and two Patton-equipped armoured regiments, and artillery. Attacks on 10 Division continued on the 6th, and it was clear that this pressure would continue, even increase.

The situation needed a sharp reaction.

Sir please, let's think positive.

Despite all the false bravado by fanboys on this forum, my biggest fear is a conflict breaking out between India and Pakistan. Both sides are armed to the teeth, possess some of the most deadliest weapons and have mastery of the arms they possess. That's a lot of bodies sir.

Believe me, there is nothing that I would like to see less than our jawans in danger in war.

Sir please, let's think positive.

Despite all the false bravado by fanboys on this forum, my biggest fear is a conflict breaking out between India and Pakistan. Both sides are armed to the teeth, possess some of the most deadliest weapons and have mastery of the arms they possess. That's a lot of bodies sir.

I'm so glad you're following this thread. It has been a re-education for me; I had no idea I had got so many things wrong.
 
Okay with everyones permission, I would like to ask Mods to delete the chit chat here from this thread and only keep the topic being discussed here safe. It is not that I didn't like the chat-on the contrary, it was fun ; but it won't do justice to the quality of posts produced here. I would like this thread to be reserved for that only.
@Pakistani Fighter @ others....let's only post here with same level of content as the first 200 posts here have given to us. I can't due to my incompetency and that is why I am simply reading it quietly. @Rashid Mahmood Sir, you are also welcome to participate and give any inputs, even if of any single naval event between India-Pakistan. BTW, you will love reading this thread from post #1.


Gonna ask mods to clean posts after post #203 i.e from #204 to this post of mine.

P.S: Do, kindly save posts or post it again in member's club if you want it to be reserved as moderation might terminate it. And again, forgive me everyone for all this selfishness and losing of your posts (if any or all). Thanks!
 
Okay with everyones permission, I would like to ask Mods to delete the chit chat here from this thread and only keep the topic being discussed here safe. It is not that I didn't like the chat-on the contrary, it was fun ; but it won't do justice to the quality of posts produced here. I would like this thread to be reserved for that only.
@Pakistani Fighter @ others....let's only post here with same level of content as the first 200 posts here have given to us. I can't due to my incompetency and that is why I am simply reading it quietly. @Rashid Mahmood Sir, you are also welcome to participate and give any inputs, even if of any single naval event between India-Pakistan. BTW, you will love reading this thread from post #1.


Gonna ask mods to clean posts after post #203 i.e from #204 to this post of mine.

P.S: Do, kindly save posts or post it again in member's club if you want it to be reserved as moderation might terminate it. And again, forgive me everyone for all this selfishness and losing of your posts (if any or all). Thanks!
If you see anyone with off topic posts, report them & we will slap them with a thread ban, I will let all the mods know about this, any report about one liner, non serious, off topic , from this thread ...ban the member

P.S: Do, kindly save posts or post it again in member's club if you want it to be reserved as moderation might terminate it. And again, forgive me everyone for all this selfishness and losing of your posts (if any or all). Thanks!
Too late..thread has been cleaned...
 
Okay with everyones permission, I would like to ask Mods to delete the chit chat here from this thread and only keep the topic being discussed here safe. It is not that I didn't like the chat-on the contrary, it was fun ; but it won't do justice to the quality of posts produced here. I would like this thread to be reserved for that only.
@Pakistani Fighter @ others....let's only post here with same level of content as the first 200 posts here have given to us. I can't due to my incompetency and that is why I am simply reading it quietly. @Rashid Mahmood Sir, you are also welcome to participate and give any inputs, even if of any single naval event between India-Pakistan. BTW, you will love reading this thread from post #1.


Gonna ask mods to clean posts after post #203 i.e from #204 to this post of mine.

P.S: Do, kindly save posts or post it again in member's club if you want it to be reserved as moderation might terminate it. And again, forgive me everyone for all this selfishness and losing of your posts (if any or all). Thanks!

You are perfectly right, and the chit-chat, though fun, was not relevant. It was a guilty pleasure.
 
What do we already know about the background to the 'sharp reaction'?

We know from inputs by Shuja Nawaz, and also from PanzerKiel, about the background to I Corps actions, but immediately, at this moment, it might help focus to look at XI Corps exclusively.

About XI Corps, we are reminded that I Armoured Div was very much part of XI Corps reserves, and Dhillon gave up command of I Armoured to I Corps with great reluctance. So we have General Dhillon executing his part of the operation short of the thunderbolt that he should have been able to hurl, and having to traverse clear country, with no defences to shield his troops, and these troops being almost exclusively PBI: 15 Infantry Div, 7th Infantry Div, and 4 Mtn Div. A quick flash forward: 15 Div zipped over its given line of attack, and not only reached the Ichhogil Canal, the given objective, but was recalled and then asked to advance a second time, in the teeth of a warned and aroused opposition. This, in spite of the visible war-weariness of the divisional commander, and his contribution to the legacy of the Pakistan Army - he donated his jeep to its war museum.

7 Div pushed forward rapidly to Hudiara, its objective; however, while its two brigades, 48 and 65, were to have leapfrogged each other, 48 to capture Hudiara and Nurpur, two points across each other on the Lahore road, and 65 to approach the position held by 48 and move on past it to the Ichhogil Canal, in reality, while 48 Brigade achieved its objectives, 65 faced the aroused Pakistan Army and made heavy weather of its advance. Their story effectively ended when 48 Brigade was diverted to support 4 Mtn Div. which was in trouble to the south of 7 Div's axis.

4 Mtn Div proved all over again that mountain troops really have no business fighting in the plains; why these troops were repeatedly deployed during this phase and immediately earlier is a mystery (we just saw 41 Brigade come up to support the badly battered 191 Brigade at Chhamb, and their rough handling by the two Pakistani armoured regiments supporting Grand Slam). On top of everything else, this division and its components had to travel very long distances, hundreds of kilometres, to reach its assembly point. It is best to deal with the actions of 4 Mtn Div. separately, as it saw the most action, even keeping in mind the magnificent performance of individual battalions within the 15 Infantry Division.
 
XI Corps, under Lt. General J. S. Dhillon, was asked to strike straight for the Pakistani defensive line at the Ichhogil Canal. The topography between Amritsar and Lahore is flat and unrelieved by any kind of cover; that leads to advantages and disadvantages both. The advantage was that armour could move quickly, stopped only by canals and waterways, including rivers; the disadvantages were that artillery and air attack both could stop an attacking team in its tracks. For that matter, it could also expose a defending team to a pounding.

XI Corps also had the element of surprise. Pakistan had not done anything particularly effective to defend Lahore. Even its 10 Division had been positioned in front of the city only the day before; actually, only hours before the Indian attack.

XI Corps then had, north to south, 15 Infantry Div., aiming for Dograi; 7 Infantry Div., aiming for Hudiara, and 4 Mtn. Brigade was launched at Kasur.

The initial objective was to advance along the GT Road to the east bank of the Ichhogil Canal, just next to the village of Dograi, which lay east of the Canal. To do this, General Dhillon had assigned 15 Infantry Division, that had two Brigades under command: 38 Brigade, tasked to take the road bridge at Bhaini Dhilwan, leading to the Pakistani enclave; and 54 Brigade, launched straight down the GT Road (the northernmost bridge near Dera Baba Nanak was assigned to 29 Brigade).

Let us see what happened at each of these bridges.

BRIDGE OVER RAVI NEAR DERA BABA NANAK

First, northernmost bridge near Dera Baba Nanak, and 29 Infantry Brigade; Brig. Pritam Singh, had captured this bridge and its enclave early on 6th September. Dera Baba Nanak was 80 kms southerly of Jammu, where all the excitement had been on the 1st, 3rd, 4th and 6th of September.

If I have read the maps correctly, this is the same bridge that connects Dera Baba Nanak to Kartarpur, over the Ravi, and allowing Pakistan access to its land enclave east of the Ravi; a bridge that has been much in the news recently.

However, the Pakistan Army, realising the situation in all its gravity with the three divisions attacking and gaining quick objectives on the 6th itself, reacted very strongly, and recovered much of the losses; this bridge was one of the first to be recovered. Around 15:00 HRS on the 6th, the Army Commander and the Corps Commander heard from Pritam Singh that the situation was dire, and that 29 Brigade should be allowed to fall back on the Batala Road, further behind his current position off the objective, of which he had been dispossessed.

There was logic behind this, although Pritam Singh had gone into a flap earlier than necessary. The thinking behind the bid to capture this bridge had been to pre-empt a Pakistani crossing in strength and a drive towards Gurdaspur and then towards Pathankot; Pathankot, it needs to be remembered, was 108 kms from Dera Baba Nanak, Gurdaspur only 70. They lay in the easterly direction from DBN; therefore withdrawing to the Batala Road, somewhat south-east of DBN, would allow Pritam to threaten the right flank of such an attack if it developed, and cut the lines of communication by attacking the connecting bridge.

However, Pritam Singh had not checked the situation on the ground, and was reacting to the tales of woe received from his forward battalions. While capturing the bridge in the early hours of the 6th, in darkness, the Indian troops had not noticed that a watchtower remained intact, and that the Pakistan Army were using it as an Artillery Observation Post, and calling down heavy fire from first light itself on the troops occupying the bridge. After softening them up for eight hours, the Pakistan Army advanced with tanks and overran two companies of the forward Indian battalion; the rest of the battalion managed to hang on. The shelling continued, and most of 29 Brigade got a fair share of attention.

This was the position at 14:00 HRS and this is what was partially reported to General Harbaksh Singh and General Dhillon at 15:00. On realising what had happened (or not happened, in this case), Dhillon ordered the 29 Brigade to stand firm, and put his GSO1 on site, to sit on Pritam Singh's head and generally encourage and edify him. For whatever reason, perhaps due to a refreshing and encouraging conversation with his Corps Commander, 29 Brigade first held out against a renewed Pakistani attack in the darkness of the 6th night, around 21:00 HRS, and then counter-attacked with armour at around 02:45 HRS on the 7th morning, winning back the bridge, and winkling out the mischief-making observation post. The PA, however, demolished one span of the bridge; in other words, the Indian defensive objective was achieved, the feared offensive move of the PA was still-born.

BRIDGE OVER ICHHOGIL CANAL AT BHAINI DHILWAN

The reader will have to bear with the narrative, as formation replaced formation in quick succession during the course of pursuing this objective.

Of the two brigades assigned to 15 Infantry Division, 38 Brigade was set to capture the Bhaini Dhilwan Bridge, and it fell to 1 Jat to achieve that. They did that, but could hold on, due to heavy artillery and tank fire. Later, on their falling back around noon on the 6th, the Corps commander personally ordered 6 Kumaon of the reserve 96 Brigade to take up the task and re-capture the bridge. They were unsuccessful in their attack on the 7th September evening, but consolidated nearby, holding on until the 8th September evening.

On the 11th, however, opposing tanks and infantry that had followed 6 Kumaon and 1 Jat when they left their firm defensive positions near Ranian, began to pose a major threat. To support them, 2 Independent Armoured Brigade, held by the Corps, that had just fought a brilliant battle in the Kasur sector, was shifted from 4 Mtn. Division to 15 Infantry Division, and reinforced 96 Brigade, whose unit 6 Kumaon was. Relieved of pressure from the opposing armour, 96 Brigade now took back the bridge in three days' time, by the 14th September.

96 Brigade had been the corps reserve for XI Corps. As it had been committed, 50 Independent (Para) Brigade that had arrived on the field, was attached to XI Corps, but was relieved in two days time by our old friends, 41 Mtn. Brigade, last seen fighting for its life in front of 28 Brigade in Akhnoor, and forced to pass through that brigade to re-group and consolidate. That regrouped and consolidated formation now was transferred from XV Corps to XI Corps, and took up position as Corps reserve; 50 Independent (Para) Brigade moved to a point north of Atari.
____________________________________oxoxoxoxo_________________________________________

These, then, were the two smaller engagements that 15 Infantry Division had, involving 29 Brigade in the north, 38 Brigade, later 96 Brigade.

The larger one was the battle for the Bridge over the Ichhogil near Dograi, fought by 54 Brigade, 3 Jat in particular, and the recoil and renewed attack on Dograi after the recall of the victorious troops by the Brigade Commander of 54 Brigade. This story might be named Victory into Defeat.

This will be narrated as THE BRIDGE AT DOGRAI.

Besides this, 7 Infantry Division struck out for its own objectives, and was not really successful.

To be reported as THE BRIDGE AT BARKI.

The really significant fighting under XI Corps, however, was the fighting under 4 Mtn. Div. in the extreme southern edge of the Corps boundary. That might echo Field Marshal Bill Slim's book, and be described as Defeat into Victory.



(to be cont.)
 
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