India, Pakistan cannot sideline Kashmir: Mirwaiz

[vish]

Vish,

Indeed the recognition of the LC as the IB appears the only solution since it is not feasible to take either areas militarily or even politically.

Yet, practical solutions don't gel with the emotive nuances that Kashmir ignites on either sides.

I agree Sir and that is the reason why the status quo (illusion of a boundary-altering solution) will continue.

This status quo does not harm India as much as it does to the other parties (Pakistan, Kashmiri elite, freedom fighters/terrorists, etc.) because we have downplayed the region's importance to us far better. We may not be able to give up the claim yet; but we are able to accept that we, in all likelyhood, will never be agle to regain the entire territory.

This is my opinion Sir; may I request your views on this?

 

[Spring Onion]

Vish,

Indeed the recognition of the LC as the IB appears the only solution since it is not feasible to take either areas militarily or even politically.

Yet, practical solutions don't gel with the emotive nuances that Kashmir ignites on either sides.

That is what Indian Government and Hawks in it think. LoC (Line of Controle) is not the International Border, it is a reality that Kashmir is disputed area and it can never be truned into a border unless the people of Kashmir want.

And the only thing People of Kashmir want is RETURN OF their land which is occupied by India wherein they are killing innocent Kashmiris and rapping their women.


And Brigadier Ray when one thinks that there is no other way to solve the problem, it in itself promoting emotive nuances.

There is this practical and just solution ask the Kashmiris on both sides if they want to be indpendent or with either of the states.

 

[Spring Onion]

I agree Sir and that is the reason why the status quo (illusion of a boundary-altering solution) will continue.

This status quo does not harm India as much as it does to the other parties (Pakistan, Kashmiri elite, freedom fighters/terrorists, etc.) because we have downplayed the region's importance to us far better. We may not be able to give up the claim yet; but we are able to accept that we, in all likelyhood, will never be agle to regain the entire territory.

This is my opinion Sir; may I request your views on this?

its the same egoistic approach which is often describe by the Indian in case of any possible nuclear war between India and Pakistan, by saying in such a case Pakistan will be wiped out but we Indians as we breed and multiply so rapidly so all of the India will not going go finish.

 

[vish]

its the same egoistic approach which is often describe by the Indian in case of any possible nuclear war between India and Pakistan, by saying in such a case Pakistan will be wiped out but we Indians as we breed and multiply so rapidly so all of the India will not going go finish.

I've stated what I have observed and understood myself. If that seems "egoistic" to you than you can presume so. Kargil, Operation Gibraltar, and the insurgency are ample evidence of who is satisfied with the status quo and who is not.

A nuclear war is something I thoroughly despise. I've never said "Pakistan would be wiped" and nor do I subscribe to that notion. While I do not doubt my countrymen's ability to procreate, it is not an excuse for deaths of millions of Indians.

Everybody looses in a nuclear war.

 

[Spring Onion]

I've stated what I have observed and understood myself. If that seems "egoistic" to you than you can presume so. Kargil, Operation Gibraltar, and the insurgency are ample evidence of who is satisfied with the status quo and who is not.

A nuclear war is something I thoroughly despise. I've never said "Pakistan would be wiped" and nor do I subscribe to that notion. While I do not doubt my countrymen's ability to procreate, it is not an excuse for deaths of millions of Indians.

Everybody looses in a nuclear war.

vish doesnt means the voice of those who adovocat the egoistic or unrealistic idea of wipping Pakistan in case of nuke war.


As far the status quo, well if millions of Indian soldiers could not supress the voice of helpless Kashmiris it in itself a big moral boost for Independence movement of Kashmir.

Secondly only a naive person can think that millions of Indian Soldiers in Indian Held Kashmir are surviving on air.

 

[vish]

vish doesnt means the voice of those who adovocat the egoistic or unrealistic idea of wipping Pakistan in case of nuke war.

I'm sorry but I could not comprehend this statement of yours; can you clarify a bit?

As far the status quo, well if millions of Indian soldiers could not supress the voice of helpless Kashmiris it in itself a big moral boost for Independence movement of Kashmir.

The independence movement in Kashmir was pretty much in a limbo before the insurgency hit its peak. There weren't millions of IA soldiers in Kashmir then. The IA was deployed therein because the writ of the Indian government was severely compromised.

Nobody is suppressing their (Kashmiri's) voice; there are many pro-Independence parties in Kashmir. There is a reason why these haven't gained absolute majority in Kashmir and that reason is not solely GoI's interference.

With regard to independence of Kashmir, my opinion is that the autonomy already enjoyed by the state government is more than necessary. J&K is a part of India and should be subjected to Indian laws and not Article 370.

Secondly only a naive person can think that millions of Indian Soldiers in Indian Held Kashmir are surviving on air.

Can you please clarify this statement as well.

 

[Flintlock]

Secondly only a naive person can think that millions of Indian Soldiers in Indian Held Kashmir are surviving on air.

Jana hon, the strength of the Indian army is 1.1 million.

Oh, the sad state of journalism in the subcontinent...

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

That is what Indian Government and Hawks in it think. LoC (Line of Controle) is not the International Border, it is a reality that Kashmir is disputed area and it can never be truned into a border unless the people of Kashmir want.

And the only thing People of Kashmir want is RETURN OF their land which is occupied by India wherein they are killing innocent Kashmiris and rapping their women.


And Brigadier Ray when one thinks that there is no other way to solve the problem, it in itself promoting emotive nuances.

There is this practical and just solution ask the Kashmiris on both sides if they want to be indpendent or with either of the states.

One must understand the realpolitik of the Kashmir issue.

Emotional tangential meanderings need not hold the verities of life and reality.

All this "leave to the Kashmiris" hollow pious platitudes and is politics. If Pakistan indeed was serious about leaving Kashmir to the Kashmiris and indeed if it were so, Pakistan should have left it to the Kashmiris to run their own and get hold of UN with ironclad guarantees from the Five Big that India would not attack and if they did, then appropriate action taken and allow such a highpowered forc to sit on the border where the PA is currently.

Nothing would have embarrassed India more.

It would ensure that India did likewise or be an international pariah as also it would prevent any attack from the Indian side.

 

[roadrunner]

One must understand the realpolitik of the Kashmir issue.

Emotional tangential meanderings need not hold the verities of life and reality.

All this "leave to the Kashmiris" hollow pious platitudes and is politics. If Pakistan indeed was serious about leaving Kashmir to the Kashmiris and indeed if it were so, Pakistan should have left it to the Kashmiris to run their own and get hold of UN with ironclad guarantees from the Five Big that India would not attack and if they did, then appropriate action taken and allow such a highpowered forc to sit on the border where the PA is currently.

Nothing would have embarrassed India more.

It would ensure that India did likewise or be an international pariah as also it would prevent any attack from the Indian side.

Not much time to comment on this, but this really is silly, Salim. If Pakistan were to vacate Kashmir, the Indian Army could move in - what have the "big 5" done to solve Kashmir? They did not even enforce the resolutions against India to force the holding of plebiscite.

Both Pakistan and India need to demilitarize Kashmir at the same time. Pakistan already has agreed to this in the past, as been posted here many times again and again.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

roadrunner,

I am aware that it is ridiculous when viewed against realpoltik.

It is appealing but ridiculous when viewed against reality.

Thus, what Jana is stating is again is emotive and way beyond realpolitik.

It was just to indicate the oddball contention.

Demilitarisation is an idealist. Sounds nice, but not a reality since who knows who will sneak inm in civilian garb and take over the area!

And then spin a co.ck and bull story to give the impression that it was a popular movement!

If it were so that demilitarisation was acceptable, then Siachen would have the first place to do it!

As far as the Plebiscite much has been written on this forum and so I won't get into flogging a dead horse.

 

[dabong1]

The only option I see is recognition of the LoC into the IB.

I would expect nothing else from an indian but the above statement............the same way india can not comprehend in its wildest dreams to hold a referendum in kashmir ,well its the same when it comes to converting the LOC into a IB for pakistanis.
Lets be truthful at least,if pakistan wants kashmir they have to fight for it.
Do we want the pak army fighting........no
Maybe an amalgamation of the various kashmiri groups into a single fighting force on the lines of hezbollah is what is needed.
Lets be friends on all issues and build economic links but keep fighting for kashmir.......let it burn in the background while we get on with business.

 

[Energon]

I would expect nothing else from an indian but the above statement............the same way india can not comprehend in its wildest dreams to hold a referendum in kashmir ,well its the same when it comes to converting the LOC into a IB for pakistanis.
Lets be truthful at least,if pakistan wants kashmir they have to fight for it.
Do we want the pak army fighting........no
Maybe an amalgamation of the various kashmiri groups into a single fighting force on the lines of hezbollah is what is needed.
Lets be friends on all issues and build economic links but keep fighting for kashmir.......let it burn in the background while we get on with business.

Ok, but then if an insurgency is to be continued then there can be no complaints about human rights abuses because the Indian army will have no other option but to take a heavy handed approach to fighting terrorists who hide among civilians. There was a fairly amalgamated terrorist movement in the early 90s which was thwarted by the Indian Army by 1996, needless to say there was a high number of unwarranted morbidity and mortality involved. It's best not to go down that route again.

Also, peace with any nation that supports terrorism in Kashmir overtly or covertly (as a national policy) is impossible. Also, the world at large is losing patience with Islamist terrorism and it is hence unlikely that there will be any meaningful support for another insurgency in Kashmir.

 

[dabong1]

Ok, but then if an insurgency is to be continued then there can be no complaints about human rights abuses because the Indian army will have no other option but to take a heavy handed approach to fighting terrorists who hide among civilians..

At least you admit that the indian army is commiting human rights abuses........do carry on down that path......more recruits for the cause.
The best way to deal with HR abuses by the indian army is for the kashmiri fighters to take the fight into india.........india army spreads destruction in kashmir do the same back ,give india a taste of its own medicine.

There was a fairly amalgamated terrorist movement in the early 90s which was thwarted by the Indian Army by 1996, needless to say there was a high number of unwarranted morbidity and mortality involved. It's best not to go down that route again...

Up until 9/11 the kashmir freedom fighters where going from to strength to strength.
I dont know where you got "thwarted by the Indian Army by 1996" but if that what makes feel good go ahead and believe it.
9/11 is what put the fight in the background not the indian army.

Also, peace with any nation that supports terrorism in Kashmir overtly or covertly (as a national policy) is impossible..

Peace with a country that has invaded your land is impossible.....overtly or covertly.

Also, the world at large is losing patience with Islamist terrorism and it is hence unlikely that there will be any meaningful support for another insurgency in Kashmir.

When did the world (US/Europe) support the insurgency in Kashmir..?

 

[vish]

I would expect nothing else from an indian but the above statement............the same way india can not comprehend in its wildest dreams to hold a referendum in kashmir ,well its the same when it comes to converting the LOC into a IB for pakistanis.
Lets be truthful at least,if pakistan wants kashmir they have to fight for it.
Do we want the pak army fighting........no
Maybe an amalgamation of the various kashmiri groups into a single fighting force on the lines of hezbollah is what is needed.
Lets be friends on all issues and build economic links but keep fighting for kashmir.......let it burn in the background while we get on with business.

Thank you for bringing my nationality and the accompanying prejudice into the picture.

The PA cannot take Kashmir forcefully. 1965 is a case that cannot be overlooked. ISI's insurgency did have a major impact on India's policy and international opinion. Post 9/11 the notion that "freedom fighters" are different from "terrorists" has few backers on the international arena. If Pakistan does manage to create (the Kashmiris are not as anti-India as you are assuming so any happening will be Pakistan's creation) a Hezbollah in Kashmir, its international standing will take a big hit.

What I really find surprising that some Pakistanis have still not realized the collateral damage that militia-running brings in their own country.

J&K is a part of India; keep fighting in there and you will get the cold shoulder. Maintain the status quo and expect peace.

AJK is a part of Pakistan; we have no qualms about that.

At least you admit that the indian army is commiting human rights abuses........do carry on down that path......more recruits for the cause.

In a proxy-war, Kashmir-like situation human rights abuses are expected especially if one party (terrorists) is cowardly enough to not come out in the open and face the other (IA). Do not overlook the region's relative calm before the insurgency. Also do not overlook the excesses done by the terrorists.

The best way to deal with HR abuses by the indian army is for the kashmiri fighters to take the fight into india.........india army spreads destruction in kashmir do the same back ,give india a taste of its own medicine.

The IA is doing its bit to reduce human rights abuses by the troops; this, I agree, is not that adequate. But sooner or later the IA will correct its position.

Take the fight to India, good one. Speaks volumes on what you wish on my people. The blasts in Bombay, Delhi, etc. have proved how pathetic these terrorists can get.

"give india a taste of its own medicine"... tell that to my friend who lost his father in the train blasts.

Your country is losing far more than us due to these freedom fighters/terrorists.

Excellent hate mongering by the way.

Up until 9/11 the kashmir freedom fighters where going from to strength to strength.
I dont know where you got "thwarted by the Indian Army by 1996" but if that what makes feel good go ahead and believe it.
9/11 is what put the fight in the background not the indian army.

The insurgency was pretty much in a limbo in 1996-1998. This is the reason why Kargil was initiated. Post Kargil things did went a bit rough, though not to the extent that they were in mid-1990s.

9/11 changed the game forever.

One more thing, we are not going to leave J&K; do whatever you can.

Peace with a country that has invaded your land is impossible.....overtly or covertly.

Then get stuck in the rut is the only option; fine with India if that is what the GoP desires, which it does not.

When did the world (US/Europe) support the insurgency in Kashmir..?

They never supported it; however, they were never so vehemently against the use of violence and terrorism.

 

[Contrarian]

Up until 9/11 the kashmir freedom fighters where going from to strength to strength.
I dont know where you got "thwarted by the Indian Army by 1996" but if that what makes feel good go ahead and believe it.
9/11 is what put the fight in the background not the indian army.

Then you have no idea. Kashmir was virtually being run by terrorists in the early 90's. AK toting gunmen were a regular sight and the writ on GoI in Kashmir was Severely compromised.

By '96 onwards, GoI had rushed IA into Kashmir in full force. The terrorist expansion was stopped, the activities of terrorists was severely reduced. IA was in control of Kashmir.

The terrorists were not going from 'strength to strength' as you imply, their networks and work in Kashmir was severely jolted and stopped. There was status quo with things in favour of the IA. The international media had stopped crying out for Kashmir, that is when Kargil happened.

And after 9/11, no one in the world will support these terrorists as freedom fighters apart from Saudi Arabia. And India has used this time very wisely, building electric fences, planting sensors and using all kinds of technology to monitor the LoC.

When did the world (US/Europe) support the insurgency in Kashmir..?

They never supported it directly, but they never called these people fighting in Kashmir as terrorists. They were reffered to as freedom fighters. Now they are called terrorists unconditionally, and denounced all over the world.


You really dont seem to realise how much damage this militant and extremist overtures of Pakistan has cost Pakistan itself. It hurts Pakistan FAR more than it hurts India. Incase you have not noticed, from 90's onwards, till today, India has gone from strength to strength, whereas Pakistan is grappling with these 'peace deals' with militants, bombings in Pakistan by the same people who they supported, economic crises among many other things. The damage done to the society in general is not so overtly visible, the society has become more intolerant and extremist, all a result of this 'Islamic Jehad' card that your governments have played for around 2 decades now.

I couldnt care less what you say, this is an internet board after all, but the first step to recovery is to realise the mistake in the first place. You must realise, that this terrorist business is hurting Pakistan itself more than any other nation.