What's new

India orders more 350 tanks

Bull

ELITE MEMBER
Joined
Feb 6, 2006
Messages
6,850
Reaction score
0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Russia hardsells military ware
Rajat Pandit
[ 25 Jan, 2007 0109hrs ISTTIMES NEWS NETWORK ]


RSS Feeds| SMS NEWS to 8888 for latest updates

NEW DELHI: From the joint development of a new 'hypersonic'BrahMos cruise missile to an almost-clinched agreement for the fifth-generation stealth fighter, India and Russia are now poised to take their already robust defence relationship to an altogether new level.

The exact contours of the agreement for the G-5 fighter project, which may require India to invest around Rs 5,000 crore, and the specifications for the hypersonic BrahMos, which will fly over five times the speed of sound, will be thrashed out in the near future.

But the two countries went ahead on Wednesday and signed a protocol for the joint development of the 100-seater multi-role transport aircraft (MTA) and a contract for the licensed production of RD-33 engines for MiG-29s at Nasik in India.

Moreover, India also decided to procure 347 more T-90S main-battle tanks, 40 more Sukhoi-30MKI 'air dominance'fighters and 80 more Mi-17 medium-lift utility and assault helicopters from Russia. That's not all. During the sixth meeting of the bilateral Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation on Wednesday, chaired by defence minister A K Antony and his Russian counterpart Sergei Ivanov, Moscow also made a strong pitch for its MiG-35 to bag the IAF's $6.5 billion contract to buy 126 multi-role combat aircraft.

Well, the Russians will have to face stiff competition in this contract from the Americans (F-16 and F/A-18), French (Rafale), Swedes (JAS-39 Gripen) and the European Consortium, which makes Typhoon.

But on other fronts, it's good news for Russia, desperate to maintain its numero uno status among defence suppliers to India, which in turn is looking to spend over $ 30 billion in the 11th Plan (2007-2012).

Russia, of course, is particularly keen to get Indian funding for its Sukhoi-led consortium's G-5 fighter project, designated as PAK-FA and touted to be a rival to the American F-35 Lighting-II Joint Strike Fighter project.

'We are developing the G-5 fighter for the last three years. It will be airborne in 2009. Some time ago, India showed interest in joining this project.

India has now informed us that a final choice has been made. We can now open up contractual work for Indian accession to the project,'said Ivanov.

As reported earlier by TOI, India has finalised plans to acquire G-5 fighters, with a lethal mix of stealth, beyond-visual range combat capabilities, reduced radar tracking signature, super-manoeuvrability and supersonic cruising ability.

While Sukhoi-30MKIs in IAF's combat fleet can be placed a little over fourth-generation, the only operational G-5 fighter in the world at present is the new American F/A-22 Raptor, which comes at $258 million apiece.

An important step during Wednesday's meeting was the decision to establish a Joint Working Group, which will meet before March, to work out the specifications for the next-generation of the 290-km range BrahMos supersonic cruise missile.

'The present BrahMos flies at a speed of 2.8 Mach (almost three times the speed of sound), which no other cruise missile in the world does at present.

The new BrahMos will have a speed between 5 to 7 Mach.
This will be important to maintain our superiority in this arena in the next decade,'said a top official.

Citing BrahMos as a 'successful joint venture', both Antony and Ivanov said the defence ties between India and Russia were no longer restricted to 'a simple buyer-seller'relationship but had transformed into one which revolved around joint R&D and development projects.

As for the MTA, Antony said, 'We are now looking forward towards joint development and production of MTA for the use of the Indian and Russian air forces, as well as commercial sales to other countries.''
 
.
India has ordered 300 modernized T-90 main battle tanks from Russia, an Indian television channel said Monday.

Under the terms of to the $950-million contract, the T-90S tanks, which are equipped with advanced fire-control systems, will be delivered to India over the next two years, an Indian military official said.

The contract is part of a deal on the delivery and licensed production of T-90 tanks, signed by Russia and India in 2001.

India bought 310 T-90S in 2001 for $800 million. Russia began deliveries of the first order of 124 tanks in 2002 and completed them this year. The remaining 186 have been assembled at the Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory in India.
The Indian Army was the first export customer for the T-90S, which has been in Russian Army service since the mid-1990s. The T-90S tanks have been deployed with six armoured regiments in northern and central India.

The associated license agreement provides for the assembly of up to 1,000 T-90S tanks in India with production scheduled to begin in 2007.
According to various sources, the current order is driven by the fact that the Indian Army urgently needs modern main battle tanks (MBTs) due to serious delays in the production of the domestic Arjun MBT.

In addition, the upgrade of the Army's Soviet and domestically built 1,500 T-72M1 MBT's, which constitute the backbone of the county's armoured regiments, has been lagging behind schedule.
 
.
So in another 2 year we will have a minimum of 700 T90s and 126 Arjuns and 1100 T-72M1 tanks..:tup:
 
.
That is indeed good news. I just hope that Arjun numbers around 500 to actually change any equations in a war. 126 is too small a number to make a huge effect.
 
.
That is indeed good news. I just hope that Arjun numbers around 500 to actually change any equations in a war. 126 is too small a number to make a huge effect.

Regardless of the impossibility, how will 500 Arjuns change "any" equation in a war? Please enlighten me. There is more than enough firepower on the other side to keep it a well contested match. Realistically, armour-wise, India cannot change the equation of a war...the hardware is too closely matched. The key differentiator is the training of the crews and tactics of the commanders.
 
.
Regardless of the impossibility, how will 500 Arjuns change "any" equation in a war? Please enlighten me. There is more than enough firepower on the other side to keep it a well contested match. Realistically, armour-wise, India cannot change the equation of a war...the hardware is too closely matched. The key differentiator is the training of the crews and tactics of the commanders.

Blain if you have been reading up on Arjun then you will know its completely different from all the MBT's in South Asia. All the T-series tank are comparable with each other, and can give each other a good run for their money. Arjun however is designed along western MBT lines, it is completely and fundamentally different from the current tanks in India and Pakistan. The Russian tanks are small, and rely on numbers to beat the enemy, thats why they have low protection, low cost, etc, etc. Western MBT's are designed to have 1 MBT against many and still win. Its meant to withstand enemy shots.

Arjun's armour is superb along with its firing system, it can track any shoot MBT's , its roughly 1 km more than the Al-Khalid. It can fire LAHAT missiles from the turret. Its a rifled turret! It cannot be penetrated by AK's shots, its armour is made so.
If you want more information on Arjun, i will PM it to you. But lets keep it at that, its different from the MBT's that India and Pakistan use.
 
.
Blain if you have been reading up on Arjun then you will know its completely different from all the MBT's in South Asia. All the T-series tank are comparable with each other, and can give each other a good run for their money. Arjun however is designed along western MBT lines, it is completely and fundamentally different from the current tanks in India and Pakistan. The Russian tanks are small, and rely on numbers to beat the enemy, thats why they have low protection, low cost, etc, etc. Western MBT's are designed to have 1 MBT against many and still win. Its meant to withstand enemy shots.

Arjun's armour is superb along with its firing system, it can track any shoot MBT's , its roughly 1 km more than the Al-Khalid. It can fire LAHAT missiles from the turret. Its a rifled turret! It cannot be penetrated by AK's shots, its armour is made so.
If you want more information on Arjun, i will PM it to you. But lets keep it at that, its different from the MBT's that India and Pakistan use.

I do not claim to know a whole lot about armour but I suspect you and I are in the same catagory ;)

Hunter-Killer capability is a very common feature in the tanks nowadas...the very first version of AK had this capability. Range of the guns is fairly comparable from what I know. Rifled turret??? Maybe you meant Rifled main gun vs. Smooth bore main gun. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. A lot also depends on the rounds being fired...the DU rounds in production in Pakistan for its 125 mm guns would put more than a dent in the Arjun.

Its a heavy tank that cannot be supported by the infrastructure in the country. So that is the impossibility of the system being inducted in larger numbers aside from integration challenges with it. If the tank cannot be moved within the country and you cannot field it in large numbers due to excessive cost (integration of the western sub-systems is not cheap).

Pakistan sees a western style MBT as an impracticality in the Thar/Punjab region. We were evaluating M1 and LeopardII (both superior to Arjun any which way you look at it)- My father was directly involved in feasibility studies to produce the Leopard in Pakistan - in the 80s and ruled it out on the basis of many limiting factors primary among them was the cost against the large #s required, secondly, infrastructure not being able to support them and thirdly either the solution or components would all or partly be of western origin thus very expensive and prone to sanctions.

So Arjun is not suitable nor realistically even positioned to have greater numbers inducted into the IA. T-90s all the way....
 
.
I do not claim to know a whole lot about armour but I suspect you and I are in the same catagory ;)

Hunter-Killer capability is a very common feature in the tanks nowadas...the very first version of AK had this capability. Range of the guns is fairly comparable from what I know. Rifled turret??? Maybe you meant Rifled main gun vs. Smooth bore main gun. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. A lot also depends on the rounds being fired...the DU rounds in production in Pakistan for its 125 mm guns would put more than a dent in the Arjun.

I did indeed mean Rifled main gun as against smooth bore main gun.


Its a heavy tank that cannot be supported by the infrastructure in the country. So that is the impossibility of the system being inducted in larger numbers aside from integration challenges with it. If the tank cannot be moved within the country and you cannot field it in large numbers due to excessive cost (integration of the western sub-systems is not cheap).
Infrastructure has to be upgraded with times. It is final India is inducting Arjun. They also have ordered special wagons which will allow Arjun to be transported, and budget is being allocated. Yes its not cheap and is one of the major reasons why govt is having trouble digesting it.

Pakistan sees a western style MBT as an impracticality in the Thar/Punjab region. We were evaluating M1 and LeopardII (both superior to Arjun any which way you look at it)- My father was directly involved in feasibility studies to produce the Leopard in Pakistan - in the 80s and ruled it out on the basis of many limiting factors primary among them was the cost against the large #s required, secondly, infrastructure not being able to support them and thirdly either the solution or components would all or partly be of western origin thus very expensive and prone to sanctions.
Well...leave apart sanctions, i dont think that applies now, Arjun was indeed developed to counter the western style MBT's that were going to be bought at that time. Yes there are many limiting factors, but then again ,India has a bigger budget, and infrastrcture like i said, is being upgraded, as it has to be done somtime or another.

So Arjun is not suitable nor realistically even positioned to have greater numbers inducted into the IA. T-90s all the way....
Well...positioned or not, its capabilities on paper far outclass those of any tank b/w India and Pakistan including T-90 and Al-Khalid.

We have had a whole discussion on Arjun, lets not start the whole thing again, whether Arjun is suitable or not, whether its good or not.
I will give you, should you ask, a US tankers view of Arjun as well as an Israeli tanker who was actually involved in the Arjun project. And i assure you , that it outclasses T-90 and Al-Khalid(Both very comparable, both Russian style tanks). Here is a link of the discussion in this very forum itself. Please read it:

http://www.pakistaniforces.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2927&highlight=Arjun
 
.
Blain

I will not to get into Technical stuff, cuz i know sqwat of it..
Infrastructure is being built, Lalu yadav announced that last year along with his success party for making the Indian Railways profitable, Also Indian army has acquired assault bridges to support the Arjun. This one cost they are willing to inccur, and slowly their strategy and doctrine on Tank warfare
 
.
I did indeed mean Rifled main gun as against smooth bore main gun.



Infrastructure has to be upgraded with times. It is final India is inducting Arjun. They also have ordered special wagons which will allow Arjun to be transported, and budget is being allocated. Yes its not cheap and is one of the major reasons why govt is having trouble digesting it.


Well...leave apart sanctions, i dont think that applies now, Arjun was indeed developed to counter the western style MBT's that were going to be bought at that time. Yes there are many limiting factors, but then again ,India has a bigger budget, and infrastrcture like i said, is being upgraded, as it has to be done somtime or another.


Well...positioned or not, its capabilities on paper far outclass those of any tank b/w India and Pakistan including T-90 and Al-Khalid.

We have had a whole discussion on Arjun, lets not start the whole thing again, whether Arjun is suitable or not, whether its good or not.
I will give you, should you ask, a US tankers view of Arjun as well as an Israeli tanker who was actually involved in the Arjun project. And i assure you , that it outclasses T-90 and Al-Khalid(Both very comparable, both Russian style tanks). Here is a link of the discussion in this very forum itself. Please read it:

http://www.pakistaniforces.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2927&highlight=Arjun

In all honesty, the IPCS PDF is a very high level fluff stuff. The references are all from DRDO or gathered over the web (newspaper reports etc. and those too predominantly Indian thus hurting the credibility of the information). So not sure if I agree that Arjun really is in the class of the tanks with which its being compared. The comparison is just theoretical without any feedback on how the tank performs in trials or in the field with the inducted units etc...(when reports have mentioned IA views about the tank, they have mostly been negative suggesting poor reliability or integration issues).

So I would compare the data with nothing more than what is typically put out by the manufacturer of any of the other tanks including AK and T-84s (for the ones in service with Pakistan).

Also the rifled gun is a good design but was prevalent in the 80s. Due to the new projectiles like the DU rounds, the smoothbore guns that allow for higher velocities to be achieved with denser rounds overcome a lot of issues that smoothbore guns of the 70s and 80s era could not.

I am ok with accepting that Arjun is going full speed with induction if my Indian friends believe so, however the comments in various reports quoting IA paint a very different picture than the rosey picture painted by many of the Indian web warriors.

Also comments like "Ajun would have ended up as an obsolete T-80 tank and not a state-ofthe-art next generation tank" refelect nationalistic zeal as Pakistan is incorrectly assumed to be operating T-80s and do nothing to provide any credible evidence to as to how much better the Arjun is vs. T-84s in service with Pakistan.
 
.
blain there is a twist to the story, dont believe any speculations.
there is a lobby-anti-lobby happening now...

no agreement on tanks has been signed yet and wont be signed anytime soon.

In all honesty, the IPCS PDF is a very high level fluff stuff. The references are all from DRDO or gathered over the web (newspaper reports etc. and those too predominantly Indian thus hurting the credibility of the information). So not sure if I agree that Arjun really is in the class of the tanks with which its being compared. The comparison is just theoretical without any feedback on how the tank performs in trials or in the field with the inducted units etc...(when reports have mentioned IA views about the tank, they have mostly been negative suggesting poor reliability or integration issues).
The tanks has performed well, i know peoples involved in it.
The IPCS report is perfectly done, you can check specs from fas.org anywhere go to tanknet forums and ask them they are tankers sitting in internet.

see zravers report, check autocar india review its a honest review outlining the problems too with pictures.

MOSCOW. Jan 20 (Interfax) - Russia and India are planning to sign an agreement on cooperation in building a fifth-generati Russian Defense on fighter and a medium-size military transportation aircraft within the next few months, Ministry international military cooperation department chief Col. Gen. Anatoly Mazurkevich told journalists.

"These issues will be in the focus of a session of the Russian- Indian intergovernmental military-technological cooperation commission led on the Russian side by Deputy Prime Minister and Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov, which is to take place in Delhi on January 24," Mazurkevich said.

"I hope agreements on the joint development of a fifth-generation fighter and a medium-size military transportation aircraft will be signed with the Indian side within the next several months," he said.

"The implementation of these projects is very important to both Russia and India," Mazurkevich said.

Taking questions from Interfax, Mazurkevich denied that a contract on Russia's selling a large number of tanks to India may be signed in the near future. "At least no such agreement will be signed during Ivanov's visit," he said.

The Russian defense minister will visit India from January 22 to 24.
 
.
The tanks has performed well, i know peoples involved in it.
The IPCS report is perfectly done, you can check specs from fas.org anywhere go to tanknet forums and ask them they are tankers sitting in internet.
Checking specs on various sites which invariably got them from Indian sources provide nothing other than some baseline stats about the overall performance of the vehicle. What matters more is what units testing or fielding them have to say. I can only speak to what I have read in the newspapers as quotes attributed to the IA and till very recently, the comments have been less than flattering. There is a national pride thing going here as it happens in Pakistan with our stuff as well. So I am not going to beat this topic to death.
 
.
^^ wrong you dont know the politics that goes in IA.
I can show you articles on army chief saying "succesful trials".

There is no national pride just fact if you think Arjun cannot kill T90 you have to show me physics.

forget specs what do you want article of arjun from jang?

I KNOW PEOPLES WHO WORKS ON IT.
ALL issues has been sorted out.

THERE WAS HUGEEE ISSUES before.

your talking like a layman and factual talks, one can only talk down what millitary reports says not what journalists says when he works in that field.

I told you go tot annet forum and place your question you'll get answer.which you wont i know.
 
.
Range of the guns is fairly comparable from what I know. Rifled turret??? Maybe you meant Rifled main gun vs. Smooth bore main gun. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. A lot also depends on the rounds being fired...

The LAHAT(Laser Homing Anti-Tank) missile has a range of 8 kms, which outranges any conventional gun. Their are no known safe-guards against the LAHAT.

the DU rounds in production in Pakistan for its 125 mm guns would put more than a dent in the Arjun.

DU. It isn't as simple as you might believe. AFAIK only the US has been able to build a APFSDS with a DU sabot. The Russians tried and abandoned it. They use a tungsten sabot I believe.

Its a heavy tank that cannot be supported by the infrastructure in the country. So that is the impossibility of the system being inducted in larger numbers aside from integration challenges with it. If the tank cannot be moved within the country and you cannot field it in large numbers due to excessive cost (integration of the western sub-systems is not cheap).

Economics is a different matter altogether. The Arjun costs $3.8 million compared to the $2.8 million that the T-90S comes for. Its well worth it when you compare their capabilities.

Pakistan sees a western style MBT as an impracticality in the Thar/Punjab region. We were evaluating M1 and LeopardII (both superior to Arjun any which way you look at it)- My father was directly involved in feasibility studies to produce the Leopard in Pakistan - in the 80s and ruled it out on the basis of many limiting factors primary among them was the cost against the large #s required, secondly, infrastructure not being able to support them and thirdly either the solution or components would all or partly be of western origin thus very expensive and prone to sanctions.

All of the reasons are economic.

So Arjun is not suitable nor realistically even positioned to have greater numbers inducted into the IA. T-90s all the way....

The Russians had a bludgeon philosophy. Their tanks were designed to kill the opposition through sheer numbers. The NATO doctrine was to have a lower number of superior tanks. The Arjun follows the latter one. The Chobam class armor isn't something that can be overlooked.
 
.
So not sure if I agree that Arjun really is in the class of the tanks with which its being compared.

The Arjun is a heavy tank while the T-series and the AK are both medium/light tanks. The class difference is there for everyone to see.

The comparison is just theoretical without any feedback on how the tank performs in trials or in the field with the inducted units etc...(when reports have mentioned IA views about the tank, they have mostly been negative suggesting poor reliability or integration issues).

The Arjun has passed all recent tests/evaluations.

and do nothing to provide any credible evidence to as to how much better the Arjun is vs. T-84s in service with Pakistan.

Come on now Blain. Surely you don't need proof that the Arjun is better than the T-84. You'll be comparing it with the T-55 next.
 
.
Back
Top Bottom