India orders more 350 tanks

[Contrarian]

Blain i beg you to read the technical discussions in the many forums about Arjun, and feedbacks from proper tankers. Go to IDF or even PDF, and you wil lfind out the capabilities of Arjun.

 

[blain2]

The LAHAT(Laser Homing Anti-Tank) missile has a range of 8 kms, which outranges any conventional gun. Their are no known safe-guards against the LAHAT.

Its a good missile no doubt, however Pakistani AK and T-84s can also fire AT-11s from their main guns.

DU. It isn't as simple as you might believe. AFAIK only the US has been able to build a APFSDS with a DU sabot. The Russians tried and abandoned it. They use a tungsten sabot I believe.

Not true. POF has been manufacturing 125mm APFSDS DU rounds with LR penetrators since the early part of this decade. POF is not the only one, there are quite a few other producers. The 125mm round is available for the pakistani T-84s and would eventually be made compatible with the 125mm gun on AK.

Economics is a different matter altogether. The Arjun costs $3.8 million compared to the $2.8 million that the T-90S comes for. Its well worth it when you compare their capabilities.

Well if its well worth it then why bother with external acquisitions??? Pakistan thinks that AK is a good enough tank thus no longer requiring additional T-84s to be purchased....the fact that Indian armour is diversifying its inventory by inducting T-90s speaks volumes about the actual standing of the Arjun which has taken 20 plus years to be built (care to think about the sunk cost which one would think would push the GoI and the IA to eventually induct the tank in large numbers, yet it is not!).

The Russians had a bludgeon philosophy. Their tanks were designed to kill the opposition through sheer numbers. The NATO doctrine was to have a lower number of superior tanks. The Arjun follows the latter one. The Chobam class armor isn't something that can be overlooked.

I think I understand this having read many, many books about the warsaw pact vs. NATO armour challenges around the Fulda gap. However the Russian origin tanks of the 70s and 80s did not have western FCS, stabilised sights, powerpacks and ERA technology integrated into them. The ammunition available to many of the smoothbore guns of Eastern block origin tanks is also quite capable now.

My point simply is that if you say money is no problem, tank has no problems then what exactly is the problem with inducting Arjun in numbers that exceed T-90 and why bother with an inferior T-90S design when Arjun can do everything so much better?

 

[vnomad]

Its a good missile no doubt, however Pakistani AK and T-84s can also fire AT-11s from their main guns.

The AT-11 Sniper has a maximum range of 4000m I think. The LAHAT has twice that range.

Not true. POF has been manufacturing 125mm APFSDS DU rounds with LR penetrators since the early part of this decade. POF is not the only one, there are quite a few other producers. The 125mm round is available for the pakistani T-84s and would eventually be made compatible with the 125mm gun on AK.

Really! That's news to me. Could you post a couple of links?

My point simply is that if you say money is no problem, tank has no problems then what exactly is the problem with inducting Arjun in numbers that exceed T-90 and why bother with an inferior T-90S design when Arjun can do everything so much better?

The answer's simple. Production. The T-90 has been in production for 14 years. The production infrastructure is there ready to start popping out T-90s. The Arjun's first production line came into service just two months ago I think. How can you expect further orders before the IOC deliveries have taken place. One can expect a response from the army after they have atleast a couple of dozen Arjuns in service.

 

[blain2]

The AT-11 Sniper has a maximum range of 4000m I think. The LAHAT has twice that range.

yep because the AT-11 integration to the 125 SB gun on the T-84 occurred right around the time it was purchased. The whole Lahat deal is a recent thing so obviously it is a more advanced version of the gun fired ATGM.

Really! That's news to me. Could you post a couple of links?

http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/news/idr/idr010509_1_n.shtml
They say IDEX2001 in the picture, its suppose to be IDEAS 2001.

http://www.pakdef.info/ideas2002/naiza_du_125mm.jpg

The answer's simple. Production. The T-90 has been in production for 14 years. The production infrastructure is there ready to start popping out T-90s. The Arjun's first production line came into service just two months ago I think. How can you expect further orders before the IOC deliveries have taken place. One can expect a response from the army after they have atleast a couple of dozen Arjuns in service.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating! So lets see how many further follow on orders materialize for Arjun vs. another tank or T-90S. Wrt IOC, Indians have been claiming for the last two years that the majority of the 124 Arjuns are with units of IA AC. I would say that is a pretty long time to work out the glitches with DRDO and then place follow-on orders for that tank. I standby my cautious reservations about the entire Arjun undertaking.

 

[vnomad]

yep because the AT-11 integration to the 125 SB gun on the T-84 occurred right around the time it was purchased. The whole Lahat deal is a recent thing so obviously it is a more advanced version of the gun fired ATGM.

Errr... so the Arjun's engagement range is twice that of the T-84 and AK right?

The proof of the pudding is in the eating! So lets see how many further follow on orders materialize for Arjun vs. another tank or T-90S. Wrt IOC, Indians have been claiming for the last two years that the majority of the 124 Arjuns are with units of IA AC.

Indian AC? The last I'd heard was that 5 had been delivered and 23 were ready for delivery. They must have been delivered by now.

I would say that is a pretty long time to work out the glitches with DRDO and then place follow-on orders for that tank.

Its been inducted because most glitches were ironed out. The order for 124 tanks was placed way back in 1997. No tank was inducted because of the glitches.

I standby my cautious reservations about the entire Arjun undertaking.

No problemo. Lets wait and see.

 

[blain2]

Errr... so the Arjun's engagement range is twice that of the T-84 and AK right?

Yes it is but its also a laser guided weapon which would be susceptibe to IRCMs on Active Protection Systems that both AK and T-84s are being equipped with (Varta). So while it has a greater range, it does not mean that the other side has no counter to it. Secondly, Laser guided ATGMs have their own set of limitations esp. with Line of Sight issues which abound in the Pakistani and Indian border areas.

Indian AC?

Sorry. meant Indian Army Armoured Corps.

 

[vnomad]

Laser guided ATGMs have their own set of limitations esp. with Line of Sight issues which abound in the Pakistani and Indian border areas.

The LAHAT doesn't need the tank firing it to be in the line of sight to the target. The target designation can be done by another tank, or a ground laser designator, and the target need not necessarily be inthe line of sight to the platform firing the missile.

 

[malik ateeq]

hi all friends . i think you all knew that t-80 tank a main battle tank.me simpley tell you t-80 tank this time have place in world tope ten tank.and pak army have more then 350 in service and near about 300 on order.and these tank bulit in pakistan heavy industry texlia.and also indian Arjan have no place in world good battle tank. also this time Arjan tank stale in development.and pak Al-Khild tank in services.and many indian compare Al-Khild with t-80 and t-84.
so dear you batter decided which tank batter.

 

[Adux]

hi all friends . i think you all knew that t-80 tank a main battle tank.me simpley tell you t-80 tank this time have place in world tope ten tank.and pak army have more then 350 in service and near about 300 on order.and these tank bulit in pakistan heavy industry texlia.and also indian Arjan have no place in world good battle tank. also this time Arjan tank stale in development.and pak Al-Khild tank in services.and many indian compare Al-Khild with t-80 and t-84.
so dear you batter decided which tank batter.

as you say

 

[Keysersoze]

The LAHAT doesn't need the tank firing it to be in the line of sight to the target. The target designation can be done by another tank, or a ground laser designator, and the target need not necessarily be inthe line of sight to the platform firing the missile.

So essentially what you are saying is that the Lahat does the same as a heavy missile launcher can do. Or what can be better achieved with a attack helicopter? As Blain said, laser guided weapons can be jammed.(with basic smoke launchers as well as other systems)
Also it requires the forward designators to come under other counters. AA assets and the usual anti-infantry resources.

 

[con]

Arjun was never intended to have missile firign ability.T series come with missile firing abilities to make up for the range drawbacks compared with western tanks.

As for the Arjun well.. apparently in one of the parlimentary comittee they asked what t-90 has and arjun doesn't . They said missile firing ability
.
The the politicans wanted Arjun to also have have it!

And there u go!

 

[sigatoka]

The AT-11 Sniper has a maximum range of 4000m I think. The LAHAT has twice that range.

Its easy to get carried away with the extreme range game but the fact is the vast majority of tank combat has and will in the near future occur at ranges below 4km so the excess range of the Lahat starts in fact becoming redundant. The Iraqi's in gulf war had modern south african artillery capable of firing at ranges of 35km and yet they did not manage a single kill either in terms of vehicles or men, the problem is locating the target and on the battlefield it is not as easy as it would be in pre-meditated tests done by those who want to show off the capability of the product they are trying to sell.

 

[Bull]

Its easy to get carried away with the extreme range game but the fact is the vast majority of tank combat has and will in the near future occur at ranges below 4km so the excess range of the Lahat starts in fact becoming redundant. The Iraqi's in gulf war had modern south african artillery capable of firing at ranges of 35km and yet they did not manage a single kill either in terms of vehicles or men, the problem is locating the target and on the battlefield it is not as easy as it would be in pre-meditated tests done by those who want to show off the capability of the product they are trying to sell.

Why do you say future engagements would be in less than 4km range?

Iraqi artillery might have been prone to air strikes by US.

 

[blain2]

The LAHAT doesn't need the tank firing it to be in the line of sight to the target. The target designation can be done by another tank, or a ground laser designator, and the target need not necessarily be inthe line of sight to the platform firing the missile.

LoS issues would remain even if the TD is done by another tank. That is something which is terrain specific.

 

[con]

LoS issues would remain even if the TD is done by another tank. That is something which is terrain specific.

Right.Lahat is seen more as an anti-chopper role than knocking out tanks.