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India not to undertake fresh projects in Afghanistan

Neither India or Pak get a strategic depth in Afghanistan.

It is just the access to the region, nothing else.

India's only objective is to prevent any anti-terrorist organization from misusing afgani people in destablizing the south asian region.
 
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AM,

You must understand strategic depth. Wikipedia has not totally explained it. It is more of a sanctuary with backup to reorganise and strike back!

That is not how Pakistani security establishment views the idea of strategic depth. Maybe the following article would shed light on what Pakistan's aim and goals are with regards to finding strategic depth in the neighborhood. Pakistani concerns are nothing unreasonable:

analysis: Pakistan’s fix —Rasul Bakhsh Rais

The United States has not been as much with us as we have been with it. Its outlook toward Pakistan is ambiguous, tentative and often overridden by interests of third parties

Never has the security environment of Pakistan been as adverse and threatening as the one we find ourselves amid today. Some elements of our regional security system are as old as our country itself, while others have accumulated over the past quarter-century of conflict in Afghanistan, and some, as a result of global transformations after the Cold War.

The present security climate is more alarming than ever due to its internal dimension, pertaining to the ongoing conflict in Swat, FATA and some parts of Balochistan.

The other two features of our security dilemma are old, and inherited.

The Indian threat, no matter how we interpret history, has been an irrefutable fact of our security problems. India has been and may remain a focal point of our security, until some fundamental transformation of the region into a zone of peace, harmony and interdependent economies—a dream and an ideal worth pursuing—is successfully achieved through visionary South Asian leaders. We have yet to see that rare breed make its presence known on the political stage of the subcontinent.

The second feature: Afghanistan, our troublesome neighbour. The real source of trouble throughout our history is the character of the Afghan state—a weak, rentier state that is overly dependent on the outside.

What compounded our security predicament was the ever willingness of our leaders to offer Pakistan as a base to countries opposed to our national interests; neither could their nexus with India in our early formative phase, nor could their bringing Soviet forces right on our borders be thought of as benign or innocent.

Afghanistan may be a sovereign state, but if its actions, policies, and strategic alignments affect us negatively, we have a right to respond; as we did in collaboration with the international community, including the United States, when the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan.

Pakistan’s policy toward Afghanistan is best explained by the concept of strategic depth, which is often misconstrued as Islamabad’s attempt at establishing its dominance over the neighbouring country. This negative connotation was better expressed in one of those prickly statements of President Hamid Karzai that Pakistan wants to “enslave Afghanistan”. Not really.

Since the idea of strategic depth is both theoretically and empirically unexplored, common observers have drawn their own wide-ranging meanings of it. Though this idea was articulated after the Mujahideen victory over the Soviet forces and the Pakistani sense of triumphalism for its key role in defeating the red forces, the idea germinated out of our troubled relations with Afghanistan.

What we leant was that Afghanistan by itself was not a problem, but posed one when it joined countries that were antagonistic toward Pakistan: India and the Soviet Union during the Cold War. It offered itself as a base not only for the intelligence agencies of these two countries but also as a sanctuary to any internal faction that had a problem with the federal government of Pakistan—Baloch and Pashtun nationalists, and the Al-Zulfikar terrorist organisation.

There is no empirical evidence to suggest that the steps that Afghanistan took during a very difficult time in Pakistan’s history were in reaction to the latter’s intervention. In fact Pakistan intervened much later, once the Baloch and Pashtun nationalists had established a base in Afghanistan.

Neither Pakistan nor the rest of the world could afford to ignore the presence of Soviet forces in Afghanistan. In retrospect, the strategy during the Cold War might appear as damaging, given the subsequent disintegration of the Soviet Union and the legacies of our intervention in Afghanistan which pose very grave threats today. But this can only be said due to the benefit of hindsight.

The concept of strategic depth is essentially defensive in contesting Afghanistan’s move to allow our adversaries to operate against us from its territory. Apparently, there is no balance between the ambitions of the Afghans to be sovereign through security actions against Pakistan and its multiple vulnerabilities. Pakistan has in the past mobilised and supported Afghan groups that were opposed to the ruling regime. When there is no love lost between the ruling factions of Afghanistan and the Pakistani government, by the same historical logic, the latter would be compelled to do the same.


It seems the Afghan state’s historical trajectory is moving in an endless cycle of internal fragmentation and strife, and foreign intervention. This time around it is a larger set of actors driven by the American strategic need to defeat its post-cold war enemy: the radical and militant Islamic forces.

Our earlier optimism that Afghanistan will be in safer hands with the international community rebuilding the country and neutralising the regional rivals has been shattered. None of these goals are anywhere closer to realisation. Rather, India has re-entered the Afghan game riding on the strategic partnership with the United States and goodwill of the leaders of Northern Front that it assisted during their civil war with the Taliban.

India with its outsized strategic ambitions, has not helped expedite the peace process with Pakistan or re-establish the stability of Afghanistan by using its territory to destabilise Fata and Balochistan.


In a way, we are back to the strategic equations of the Cold War years, with the enormous difference that Washington, our strategic partner of those years, is with the Afghan-India twin. The United States accusing us of everything that goes wrong in Afghanistan and frequently lobbing missiles on targets inside Pakistan only make matters worse for us; this comes despite having done more than we could politically afford to help the international coalition.

Under unrelenting US pressure for our security falilures, we have pushed ourselves into a war with the tribes in FATA and Swat as in support of the Washington in its war on terror. It didn’t start as our war because we were supporting the Taliban before 9/11, but circumstances have forced us to own it. The forced or forged convergence of interests on the war on terror with the United States has produced very adverse consequences for our national security in the western borderlands.

The same groups that were fighting against the Afghan, NATO and American forces in Afghanistan have teamed up against Pakistan. The Pakistani Taliban are now part of the regional and transnational network of militant forces that want to fight a long war both against the regional states and the US. Their ideological orientations, world outlook and armed struggle (by necessity) push us closer to their nemesis, the US.

But the real difficulty is that the United States has not been as much with us as we have been with it. Its outlook toward Pakistan is ambiguous, tentative and often overridden by interests of third parties. For this reason, the level of trust is low between the two countries, particularly between the intelligence agencies that in the past have cooperated very closely.

Pakistan is currently in a big fix in view of the local, regional and global developments that have re-shaped our geopolitical landscape. We face one of the most difficult and complex security situations with both state and non-state actors at play. What complicates our national security further is political fragmentation, an ongoing economic down-turn, and a pervading sense of gloom about the coherence and competence of the elected government.

Dr Rasul Baksh Rais is author of Recovering the Frontier State: War, Ethnicity and State in Afghanistan (Lanham, Maryland: Lexington Books 2008) and a professor of Political Science at the Lahore University of Management Sciences. He can be reached at rasul@lums.edu.pk
 
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Neither India or Pak get a strategic depth in Afghanistan.

It is just the access to the region, nothing else.

India's only objective is to prevent any anti-terrorist organization from misusing afgani people in destablizing the south asian region.

Pakistan's objective is not much different. See above article. We have a history of having to deal with destabilization efforts coming out of Afghanistan, more so than India.
 
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Allow me to give my answer to this question.

No, India cannot get strategic depth in Afghanistan, because India is not directly connected with Afghanistan and neither is India in need of 'depth'. It is a big country in breadth as well. Pakistan needs it, because of its small depth or width.

Again, the concept of strategic depth has nothing to do with the geography of Afghanistan and its possibilities for Pakistan or India. However it has every thing to do with ensuring the Afghanistan cannot be used to undermine a neighboring country. This is the key as the decentralized, weak governments that Afghanistan has had ever since Pakistan came about have always caused problems for the latter country.

Even if Pakistan had a government of its own picking in Afghanistan, we do not intend to park our aircraft and tanks for reasons of safety and survival.
 
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Again, the concept of strategic depth has nothing to do with the geography of Afghanistan and its possibilities for Pakistan or India. However it has every thing to do with ensuring the Afghanistan cannot be used to undermine a neighboring country. This is the key as the decentralized, weak governments that Afghanistan has had ever since Pakistan came about have always caused problems for the latter country.

Even if Pakistan had a government of its own picking in Afghanistan, we do not intend to park our aircraft and tanks for reasons of safety and survival.

True.

You are only worried about Pakhtoonistan and you know that the Pashtun care a damn about you!
 
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True.

You are only worried about Pakhtoonistan and you know that the Pashtun care a damn about you!

We care about the Pakhtoons and all that is Afghanistan more than you will ever understand and since I know you don't know too many Pakhtuns, I wont bother responding to your clueless claim about whether they give two hoots or not. :rolleyes:
 
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One liners should be banned any way, at least more than one per day should be completely banned.

This will definately help to get rid of hooting.
 
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Even if Pakistan had a government of its own picking in Afghanistan, we do not intend to park our aircraft and tanks for reasons of safety and survival.

The point is if hostilities would have broken out and Afghanistan was still under the Taliban, would you guys hesitate to park your toys? No.
 
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The point is if hostilities would have broken out and Afghanistan was still under the Taliban, would you guys hesitate to park your toys? No.

For what purpose?

If hostilities broke out and those 'toys' were parked then what is the point of having those toys?

This is goes back to what I said, the idea of strategic depth the way Indians present it is absurd. In the case of an outbreak of hostilities, all of Pakistan's military assets will need to be employed to counter an already far larger Indian military machine. If they are not then Pakistan is lost.

So the answer to your question is yes. We indeed would hesitate to park our toys, anywhere, most of all Afghanistan.
 
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For what purpose?

If hostilities broke out and those 'toys' were parked then what is the point of having those toys?

This is goes back to what I said, the idea of strategic depth the way Indians present it is absurd. In the case of an outbreak of hostilities, all of Pakistan's military assets will need to be employed to counter an already far larger Indian military machine. If they are not then Pakistan is lost.

So the answer to your question is yes. We indeed would hesitate to park our toys, anywhere, most of all Afghanistan.

I meant your strategic toys -- MRBM/IRBM TELs.

If the Taliban was ruling in Afghanistan, you would have done so.
 
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I meant your strategic toys -- MRBM/IRBM TELs.

If the Taliban was ruling in Afghanistan, you would have done so.

Unless we park them way in the North West of the country (which affects the range) - they would be under Indian air cover.

Most of India's missiles would still cover such assets in Afghanistan.

Lastly and most importantly, Pakistan would not let something so important out of its hands.
 
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Unless we park them way in the North West of the country (which affects the range) - they would be under Indian air cover.

Most of India's missiles would still cover such assets in Afghanistan.

Lastly and most importantly, Pakistan would not let something so important out of its hands.

Afghanistan is another country, that complicates politics big time. We may have the missile range, but the geo-politics would be massively complicated if we exercise the option.

Your 2000km+ range IRBMs will hit us if fired from Afghanistan. Hitting Afghanistan would be very hard for our forces as we would have to travel through Pakistan.

Plus, Afghanistan gives you more room to station these TELs. This increases the number of targets for our forces to hit.
 
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Afghanistan is another country, that complicates politics big time. We may have the missile range, but the geo-politics would be massively complicated if we exercise the option.

Your 2000km+ range IRBMs will hit us if fired from Afghanistan. Hitting Afghanistan would be very hard for our forces as we would have to travel through Pakistan.

Plus, Afghanistan gives you more room to station these TELs. This increases the number of targets for our forces to hit.

In a war, India would not hesitate to attack Afghanistan if it was hosting Pakistani weapons - Afghanistan is not a power player and has no influence to affect anything in case of an Indian attack (especially when India has justification due to Afghanistan hosting Pakistani WMD's).

Whether India attacks military assets in Pakistan or Afghanistan, she will have to get past Pakistani air defenses and the PAF. Therefore, as far as 'keeping assets safe' is concerned, so long as the above are not destroyed, they are as safe in Pakistan as they would potentially be in Afghanistan. In fact, less so in Afghanistan since Pakistani control of WMD's would always be under threat of being compromised in another country.

The mountainous terrain of Northern Western Pakistan provides plenty of options for relocating any assets that need to be.

So why take the risk of moving them out of Pakistani control into another country? One has to remember that another country would open itself to a nuclear response were Pakistan to relocate some of its WMD's there, even if the actual attacks were carried out from assets based in Pakistan.
 
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AM, why do you think that Pakistani government were so focussed on the strategic depth in Afghanistan for all these years?

You don't seem to see any value but the likes of Hamid Gul and Musharraf certainly saw some value there.
 
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