India may be working on a third stealth fighter project

[hembo]

We know the Ministry of Defense has already pledged to co-develop the FGFA variant of the Russian Sukhoi PAK-FA stealth fighter, and it's Defense Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is already working on designing the twin-engined advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA). That means the Indian Air Force has both heavy and medium stealth fighter projects -- similar, perhaps, in concept to the high-F-22/medium-F-35 split by the US Air Force.

Now the Indian aerospace and defence press reports Indian Air Marshall PV Naik is in talks with Russia about a lightweight stealth fighter.

It's not clear if Naik is simply discussing a stealth fighter lighter than FGFA; if so, it is perhaps an invitation for Russia to join India's ongoing AMCA project.

If Naik is really discussing a light stealth fighter with the Russians, then it could mean India is considering a stealthy replacement for the long-awaited Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA). That would give India an all-stealth fleet divided into light, medium and heavy categories.

The concept of a light stealth fighter is a tough engineering challenge. To achieve radar stealth, all fuel and munitions must be carried internally. That's possible to do in a 60,000lb-class fighter, such as the Lockheed Martin F-22, or even a 40,000lb-class fighter, such as the F-35. But it's an even bigger challenge for a manned, 20,000lb-class fighter.

http://www.aviongoo.com/display_blog.php?id=5344

Indian aerospace and defence press reports
Google Translate

 

[Kompromat]

India on its own cannot produce under current R&D capacity a single decent stealth air craft on its own without any help from abroad. This big talk about 3 projects is nothing more than a loud fart to pheww the sweats coming onto Indian establishments stunned face after seeing the J-20.

India HAS TO get help either from Russia or the US (France & Israel wont be helpful anytime soon) to design and produce even AMCA let alone a 3rd stealth air craft.

Under current capacity India cannot even produce more than 8 LCAs/annum - talking about research and development & integration of 3 stealth systems at the same time is absurd and people will just laugh at it.

Under current capacity.

1: India doesn't manufacture any engine (Kevari is going nowhere) let alone high thrust engines able to super cruise.

2: Cannot manufacture 4th generation Avionics let alone 5th generation avionics neither they can atm develop IRSTs.

3: Cannot produce a reasonable radar let alone AESA radar.

4: Cannot produce a Retractable IFR support system.

5: There is no high end EW/EA suite designed and developed by India.

6: India does not manufacture basic Armament apart from dumb bombs - let alone 5th generation off bore sight IR WVRAAMs and 5th Generation Medium range BVRAAMs. GPS guided smart bombs , even India doesn't have an operational indigenous ALCM.

7: India has not developed even a basic secured Data link let alone high speed datalink essential for 5th Gen a/c.

8: Indian track record of LCA is an open book - About 60% of that air craft has been developed on borrowed technology and India plans to replace those technologies one day with their own. Given the current potential India might be able to do so for Tejas but talking about not 1 not 2 but 3 Stealth Fighters (5th gen) is i am sorry nothing more than a as i said before a "loud fart"


Good luck anyway.

 

[angeldemon_007]

^^^
Atleast you said good luck....
Look man, we all know were we stand but we also know first step is always difficult. Nobody is saying it won't be difficult but its not impossible. Now India is not in a situation where it was a decade ago facing all kinds of restrictions...Our countries learned something from Su30 mki project and some we will learn from MMRCA and a lot from FGFA. I don't think after so many projects we won't be able to develop our own aircrafts and if we face problem in any field we can get help, everybody needs help and that doesn't make that aircraft foreign made.

Now we can get into foreign partnership get smaller equipment from outside instead of producing it within the country. As far as borrowed technology for LCA is concerned, i don't think you are in a state to tell that 60 % is borrowed but yeah i agree many of the equipments are purchased from outside but it is done because we cannot produce each and every thing within the country as it would increase the cost of the aircraft.

Now due to offset policy our companies are slowly and slowly entering into global supply chain and so they are also now developing products thereby increasing the percentage of indigenization for future aircrafts.

@hembo
I highy doubt that we will go for third 5th gen fighter project but yeah if India thinks about going for a 3rd fifth gen fighter in a light weight category then Russia is the best option because they have a project in this category...
Russia has a light weight single engine fifth gen fighter aircraft project being developed by Mikoyan. Its called Mikoyan LMFS.

The best way is to be part of this project or we can also put some of the 5th gen features in LCA and do some design changes to develop a LCA mk3, a 5th gen version.

 

[Kompromat]

* My point was not if India can do it in a partnership or not but that India simply cant do it on its own !

 

[Kinetic]

I do not think this is a new project. We should wait for more news reports before coming to conclusion.

India on its own cannot produce under current R&D capacity a single decent stealth air craft on its own without any help from abroad. This big talk about 3 projects is nothing more than a loud fart to pheww the sweats coming onto Indian establishments stunned face after seeing the J-20.

I was searching for it and found this in the first para. China, You cannot make a single post without taking credibility of what Chinese did and without knowing how much they are getting helps from abroad.

My point was not if India can do it in a partnership or not but that India simply cant do it on its own !

Without US and Russia there is no country can build a complete 5th gen fighter without outside help.

 

[Kompromat]

I do not think this is a new project. We should wait for more news reports before coming to conclusion.






I was searching for it and found this in the first para. China, You cannot make a single post without taking credibility of what Chinese did and without knowing how much they are getting helps from abroad.


Without US and Russia there is no country can build a complete 5th gen fighter without outside help.

I was giving an example , not firewood to your lunacy - btw what Chinese have been able to achieve is what you cannot achieve on your own for 20 more years.

 

[Kinetic]

I was giving an example , not firewood to your lunacy - btw what Chinese have been able to achieve is what you cannot achieve on your own for 20 more years.

You think that this stealth fighter is a 'loud fart to pheww the sweats' what else example do you need for lunacy? You have no respect for others nor you bothered to put any decency, I am not expecting it it is as you are. You were giving example of China because you know you cannot even talk without them. You coming to such conclusion is not new.

 

[Kompromat]

You think that this stealth fighter is a 'loud fart to pheww the sweats' what else example do you need for lunacy? You have no respect for others nor you bothered to put any decency, I am not expecting it it is as you are. You were giving example of China because you know you cannot even talk without them. You coming to such conclusion is not new.

Thats actually a truth , an undeniable truth of Chinese being light years ahead in aviation than India - take it as you want -- grapes are sour after all.

 

[Kinetic]

Thats actually a truth ,

What truth? After reading the news the first thing came to your mind is "This big talk about 3 projects is nothing more than a loud fart to pheww the sweats coming onto Indian establishments stunned face after seeing the J-20." There are only initial talks about the project but you already started burning.

an undeniable truth of Chinese being light years ahead in aviation than India -

btw what Chinese have been able to achieve is what you cannot achieve on your own for 20 more years.

Direct shift from 20 years to light years. All these are magic only!!!

Light years As I said we Indians talk about India and you talk about China. Thats the difference.

take it as you want -- grapes are sour after all.

Now you came to the point. Grapes are sour, you cannot afford them talk about China.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

I was searching for it and found this in the first para. China, You cannot make a single post without taking credibility of what Chinese did and without knowing how much they are getting helps from abroad.

You think that this stealth fighter is a 'loud fart to pheww the sweats' what else example do you need for lunacy? You have no respect for others nor you bothered to put any decency, I am not expecting it it is as you are. You were giving example of China because you know you cannot even talk without them. You coming to such conclusion is not new.

I am very happy for our Pakistani brothers, to talk about China as much as they like.

Maybe not technically, but in spirit we share our achievements with them.

 

[Kinetic]

I am very happy for our Pakistani brothers, to talk about China as much as they like.

So now you are giving him a free pass to use 'China', do you think he need your permission. Anyway...

Maybe not technically, but in spirit we share our achievements with them.

Only that spirit brought him here, other than how it is possible to bash Indian stealth fighter project with low grade language like that?

 

[GORKHALI]

India on its own cannot produce under current R&D capacity a single decent stealth air craft on its own without any help from abroad. This big talk about 3 projects is nothing more than a loud fart to pheww the sweats coming onto Indian establishments stunned face after seeing the J-20.

India HAS TO get help either from Russia or the US (France & Israel wont be helpful anytime soon) to design and produce even AMCA let alone a 3rd stealth air craft.

Under current capacity India cannot even produce more than 8 LCAs/annum - talking about research and development & integration of 3 stealth systems at the same time is absurd and people will just laugh at it.

Under current capacity.

1: India doesn't manufacture any engine (Kevari is going nowhere) let alone high thrust engines able to super cruise.

2: Cannot manufacture 4th generation Avionics let alone 5th generation avionics neither they can atm develop IRSTs.

3: Cannot produce a reasonable radar let alone AESA radar.

4: Cannot produce a Retractable IFR support system.

5: There is no high end EW/EA suite designed and developed by India.

6: India does not manufacture basic Armament apart from dumb bombs - let alone 5th generation off bore sight IR WVRAAMs and 5th Generation Medium range BVRAAMs. GPS guided smart bombs , even India doesn't have an operational indigenous ALCM.

7: India has not developed even a basic secured Data link let alone high speed datalink essential for 5th Gen a/c.

8: Indian track record of LCA is an open book - About 60% of that air craft has been developed on borrowed technology and India plans to replace those technologies one day with their own. Given the current potential India might be able to do so for Tejas but talking about not 1 not 2 but 3 Stealth Fighters (5th gen) is i am sorry nothing more than a as i said before a "loud fart"


Good luck anyway.

Researcher huh,

India doesn't manufacture any engine (Kevari is going nowhere) let alone high thrust engines able to super cruise.

Recent breakthrough in Kaveri engine
Kaveri engine passes series of tests on Russian aircraft
PTI | 11:05 PM,May 02,2011

New Delhi, May 2 (PTI) The indigenously-built Kaveri engine for military aircraft successfully passed a series of tests on a Russian Il-76 aircraft recently using it as Flight Test Bed (FTB) at a Russian facility."The recently conducted tests were a significant step towards operationalisation of Kaveri engine. A Russian Il-76 transporter was used as the FTB to conduct 11 successful trials totalling over 20 hours till April," Defence Research and Development Organisation spokesperson said here today.Elaborating on using Il-76 as FTB, he said, "Kaveri was replaced with one of the four engines of the Il-76. The tests were carried out up to 12 km maximum altitude and a maximum forward speed of 0.7 Mach and under different operating conditions." Developed by Bangalore-based Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) under DRDO, the engine recently passed ground tests before being transported to Gromov Flight Research Institute in Russia for simulated flights and FTB trials.So far, the country has spent over USD 455 million in last two decades to develop the engine which was first designed to fly the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas. A major setback occurred when it could not generate desired thrust to make the aircraft airborne.
Kaveri engine passes series of tests on Russian aircraft, IBN Live News
Kaveri is going where you only dream for..


2>

Cannot produce a reasonable radar let alone AESA radar.

The images above, seen here for the first time, are from official material on the Indian AESA radar project for the LCA Tejas, shared with LiveFist. Indian state-owned radar developer Electronics R&D Establishment (LRDE) is in the process of identifying a development partner (DP) for an indigenous AESA radar for future tranches of the Tejas and the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) and is likely to make a final decision shortly. The radar has begun development in the country. According to official updated material made available to LiveFist, the fully solid-state X-band radar is being developed with the following modes:

Air-to-Air: Multi-target detection and tracking / Multi target ACM (Air-to-Air combat mode) / High resolution raid assessment

Air-to-Ground: High Resolution mapping (SAR mode) / AGR – Air to Ground Ranging / RBM – Real Beam Mapping / DBS – Doppler Beam Sharpening / Ground Moving Target Indication (GMTI) / Ground Moving Target Tracking (GMTT) / Terrain Avoidance (TA)

Air-to-Sea: Sea search and multi target tracking / Range Signature (RS) / Inverse Synthetic Aperture Radar (ISAR)

As I've reported here before, the development partner that LRDE identifies will be responsible for "detailed design, development and realisation" of (a) antenna panel constisting of main antenna, guard antenna and sidelobe cancellation antenna, (b) transmit/receive modules/groups, (c) RF distribution network consisting of RF manifold/combiners, RF interface, (d) antenna/beam control chain consisting of T/R control and T/R group control, and (e) array calibration/BITE among other areas

4: Cannot produce a Retractable IFR support system.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?topicName=india&id=news/awx/2010/06/07/awx_06_07_2010_p0-232251.xml&headline=F-16+Refueling+Probe+Developed

t's remarkable that the Lockheed Martin F-16, despite being exported worldwide for 35 years, can't be refueled except by the handful of air forces that fly boom-equipped tankers. Cobham's Sargent-Fletcher division demonstrated a modified 370 gal wing tank a few years ago that housed a retractable probe, apparently for Israel, but as far as is known it was not adopted.

Hose and drogue refueling is mandatory for India's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft contest, however, so Lockheed Martin, Cobham and HAL have teamed up to develop the Conformal Air Refueling Tanker/System (CARTS), which adds a probe in the forward end of the right-hand overwing conformal tank.

5: There is no high end EW/EA suite designed and developed by India.

Electronic warfare suite developed for MiG-27
India has successfully tested the electronic warfare (EW) suite for MiG-27 fighter aircraft, to thwart any kind of enemy threats, said a senior official of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) on Wednesday.

The sophisticated version of MiG-27 fighters will be operational by 2011.

Announcing the latest achievement in the country’s defence warfare capabilities, Dr Prahlada, chief controller, R&D (Ae&SI) of DRDO, speaking on the sidelines of the India National Electronic Warfare Workshop (EWWI-2010) in the city, said the technical know-how would bring India on par with the rest of the world.

“We have successfully integrated the present electronic warfare (EW) systems with MiG-27 fighters. It will be operational from 2011. Similarly, we’ll integrate EW systems with MiG-29 fighters and Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) by 2011. They are likely to be operational by 2012,” said Prahlada.

Although all the three wings of the Indian armed forces have been using EW systems for long, upgradation of MiG fighters and Tejas is the first step forward in indigenous development by the DRDO.
The DRDO is also building two new test ranges in Chitradurga district in Karnataka and another in Tandur in Andhra Pradesh, which will be operational by 2012 and 2013, respectively. Both the aeronautical ranges will be used to test radar-based EW systems, unmanned aerial vehicles, air-to-ground weapons, huge parachutes, and Tejas LCAs and aerostats.

While the Chitradurga range would test ‘non-communication’ EW systems, the Tandur range will test ‘communication’ EW systems.

“We have already acquired the land in Chitradurga. Talks are on with the government to acquire land in Tandur. These are peaceful areas, far-off from populated city spaces and have no risk of any radiation leak,” said Prahlada.

Electronic warfare suite developed for MiG-27 - Bangalore - DNA

Mayavi 2 will be used and co developed by Israel for F35

7: India has not developed even a basic secured Data link let alone high speed datalink essential for 5th Gen a/c

.
Here's the most hilarious part of your post lol
Straight from horse mouth that is Boeing
Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) has delivered for the P-8I the Indian-designed Data Link II and Identification Friend or Foe Interrogator (IFFI), a battle management system that will enable P-8I aircraft to distinguish friendly aircraft and forces. Boeing will install the systems during P-8I final assembly at its facility in Renton, Washington. BEL is also our partner on the Analysis & Experimentation Centre in Bangalore, which provides world-class modeling and analysis capability in support of the Indian Armed Forces.

Boeing India Home: Boeing Defense, Space & Security in India

Now can any one in PDF including Mods would like to tell me what is researcher is all about here ???what is the basic criteria for it here coz quoted post by a researcher is even worse than a rookie ..

 

[angeldemon_007]

* My point was not if India can do it in a partnership or not but that India simply cant do it on its own !

Well thats not true. India can build it but the thing is, it will take time and alot of money.

I do not think this is a new project. We should wait for more news reports before coming to conclusion.

I agree. There is only one Russian article and rest is just the discussion based on that. Its possible that their might be a mistake in the article. Also the article might be mentioning about FGFA being a lighter than PakFa. It is also possible that India Russia might develop AMCA jointly. This last option of India going for 3rd 5th gen fighter is a bit foggy.

Without US and Russia there is no country can build a complete 5th gen fighter without outside help.

I was giving an example , not firewood to your lunacy - btw what Chinese have been able to achieve is what you cannot achieve on your own for 20 more years.

None of them have done their 5th gen project alone. US has acquired alot of tech from Russia for their 5th gen project. Hell the US stealth fighter approach itself is based on the research of a Russian scientist. I cannot talk about Russia because we have less knowledge about it. Companies like BAE (which is not US) and many others helped US in their 5th gen projects.
As far as China is concerned they haven't built any fighter jet without reverse engineering so make you think that they build J20 on their own. Nobody knows anything about J20, what are its exact specs, not even Chinese people ? Their are lot of reports of China acquiring tech for its Stealth fighter by some crashed US stealth fighter and stealing techs from US and Russia.
Although in my personal opinion its fine and India should also do because everyone including US and Russia are involved in tech robbery.

btw what Chinese have been able to achieve is what you cannot achieve on your own for 20 more years.

Don't get cocky....but i still have to ask what they have achieved and who told you they haven't taken the same amount of time ?

an undeniable truth of Chinese being light years ahead in aviation than India - take it as you want -- grapes are sour after all.

Its not true. But yeah they are ahead and they are spending alot on RnD. But just for sec, why are we always talking about India and China when comes to RnD and development of latest defense techs ?

Light years As I said we Indians talk about India and you talk about China. Thats the difference.

well said.

 

[Riz]

3rd programm ? I have heard about fgfa, which one is 2nd one LCA ?

 

[Mrityunjay Rai]

3rd programm ? I have heard about fgfa, which one is 2nd one LCA ?

Second one is AMCA