INDIA- HELICOPTER Competitions::News and Discussions

[Abingdonboy]

My personnel opinion....IA should operate 100 Ah-64. Some might think it is too much but we have world's biggest voluntary army and according to reports number is increasing as oppose to western countries.

I have written this many times earlier also, we need to acquire more and more heavy lift and medium lift helicopters for our army for rapid mobilization. Most part of troubled areas in India like J&K, North East and Naxal Infested areas have one thing in common, poor infrastructure. We cannot build airports, roads & railways everywhere but we can land helicopters in every troubled zone.

US army alone operate more than 4500 helicopters. Our army which is bigger than US should at-least operate 1000 choppers but we operate something around 213 helicopters at the moment and none of them are transport except dhruv which are around <45.

IAF is placing order for 12 heavy lift helicopters. I mean its a joke, this number is so small that it will be difficult for them to even decide where to station them, which base should get the priority ? I don't really care about IAF because main user is IA, they are the one who has to walk 40 miles just to reach the post while you can reach their within minutes if you operate helicopters which they should because if these posts and bases gets attacked in the future our forces will be very vulnerable and we can very easily lose those areas.

Yes you are correct, I have always thought 12 heavy lift and 22 attack helos are way too small for IA/IAF and seems as a move purely to replace old stock and not expand capacity. I mean with India's new found prosperity they could easily afford 5-7 times more. I just don't know what these guys were thinking- buying 1 SQD only??!! It's almost not worth doing as the infrastructure needed to be set up is a major cost of the deals so after this outlay the IAF should take advantage of economies of scale and buy as many as they can afford.

 

[sancho]

Yes you are correct, I have always thought 12 heavy lift and 22 attack helos are way too small for IA/IAF and seems as a move purely to replace old stock and not expand capacity. I mean with India's new found prosperity they could easily afford 5-7 times more. I just don't know what these guys were thinking- buying 1 SQD only??!! It's almost not worth doing as the infrastructure needed to be set up is a major cost of the deals so after this outlay the IAF should take advantage of economies of scale and buy as many as they can afford.

We can afford more, but the question is do we need more of them? The Chinook is not meant for normal troop transport roles, that's what we have and keep ordering Mi 17s for and the same goes for cargo, or even artillery transport in high numbers. These Chinooks, or Mi 26 are meant in addition, for specific lift roles above the Mi 17, that's why I think capability in this case should be the more important factor than the numbers.
The heavy combat helicopters are also replacing a specific number of Mi 35s, so 22 is the least number, but on the other hand the LCH will be the prime combat helicopter of IAF and IA in most of the roles the Apache, or Mi 28 would be deployed as well. So again, it should be additional capability that the new combat helicopter should offer above the LCH, not numbers.

 

[angeldemon_007]

We can afford more, but the question is do we need more of them?

Yes we need them alot. Its actually on your point of view. Army is still operating , BSF is still operating. They are the ones who feels the need of these things. Most of our conflict zones doesn't have any kind of connectivity. In Naxal infested areas if you will use transport helicopters then you can provide the reinforcement quickly and do the causality evacuation also but instead the re-enforcement is also on foot and it reaches the fighting zone in a couple of days and by that time all of our soldiers are dead forget about the causalities, they don't stand a chance.

The Chinook is not meant for normal troop transport roles, that's what we have and keep ordering Mi 17s for and the same goes for cargo, or even artillery transport in high numbers.

My favorite is Mi26 for heavy lift. As far as Mi17 is concerned we are paying too much for that crap, we should go for Eurofighter. Those choppers are a generation ahead than Mi17.

So again, it should be additional capability that the new combat helicopter should offer above the LCH, not numbers.

Number matters to us. How will you decide to station such little number of Apaches ? One at each base ? We need more, 100 is my personal opinion but IA should go for anything more than 50.

 

[jha]

We can afford more, but the question is do we need more of them? The Chinook is not meant for normal troop transport roles, that's what we have and keep ordering Mi 17s for and the same goes for cargo, or even artillery transport in high numbers. These Chinooks, or Mi 26 are meant in addition, for specific lift roles above the Mi 17, that's why I think capability in this case should be the more important factor than the numbers.
The heavy combat helicopters are also replacing a specific number of Mi 35s, so 22 is the least number, but on the other hand the LCH will be the prime combat helicopter of IAF and IA in most of the roles the Apache, or Mi 28 would be deployed as well. So again, it should be additional capability that the new combat helicopter should offer above the LCH, not numbers.

No, we do not need Chinook or, Mi-26 in huge numbers.. Mi-17 is good enough ...

 

[sancho]

Sorry for the late reply, I must have missed your post!

Yes we need them alot. Its actually on your point of view. Army is still operating , BSF is still operating. They are the ones who feels the need of these things. Most of our conflict zones doesn't have any kind of connectivity. In Naxal infested areas if you will use transport helicopters then you can provide the reinforcement quickly and do the causality evacuation also but instead the re-enforcement is also on foot and it reaches the fighting zone in a couple of days and by that time all of our soldiers are dead forget about the causalities, they don't stand a chance.

Buddy, all these things you pointed out here, are done with Dhruv, or Mi 17 class helicopters, not with heavy lift helicopters like Mi 26. That's exactly why I meant, that we have numbers of Mi 17s now as the base (another 139 on order), so be it the Chinook, or the Mi 26, none of them will be used for these roles and that's why really high numbers are not needed.

My favorite is Mi26 for heavy lift. As far as Mi17 is concerned we are paying too much for that crap, we should go for Eurofighter. Those choppers are a generation ahead than Mi17.

Eurofighter? According recent reports the Mi 17s belongs to the most reliable helicopters in IAF fleet and it will be sold in high numbers, altough it is that old.

Number matters to us. How will you decide to station such little number of Apaches ? One at each base ? We need more, 100 is my personal opinion but IA should go for anything more than 50.

Again, it depends on what roles they are aimed on. The LCH will be the attack helicopter next to the Dhruv WSI and that in high numbers, the Apache/Mi 28 is just a replacement on the higher end, probably with special roles and capabilities.

 

[sancho]

Another point that interests me at the is the IN competition for ASW helicopters. If I'm not wrong IN plans to upgrade the Sea King fleet once again, which means the competition is only meant to replace the Ka 25 and 28 helicopters, so for just 20 right?

I still feel that we should focus on the Dhruv, because it offers all to be a good naval helicopter, the only problem is the lack of range and internal space, which could be extended if HAL would re-design/stretch it. This is the HAL Dhuv in ASW config (if I'm not wrong a prototype offered to IN):

Personally, it looks damn ugly, but I guess performance is more important than looks right?

However these are possible alternatives:


Sikorsky S70B

NH 90 NFH (NATO Frigat Helicopter)

And this would be on my wishlist:

Take the naval Dhruv and make this out of it:

Changes:

- stretched cabine
- larger doors, possible locations for guns
- seats for up to 20 passangers
- increased internal fuel + possibility to add external fuel tanks
- more powerful Shakti engine
- FLIR pod of the Dhruv WSI, or LCH, but integrated below the nose
- maritime surveillance radar


Wouldn't it be a perfect helicopter for all the new IN and ICG vessels, or for shore based SAR / ASW operations? Especially when we could use our indigenous maritime radars, torpedos, or even HELINA missiles on it, instead buying more foreign stuff.
The same version should be interesting for SAR / MEDIVAC operations of IA, or BSF as well, more capable than the normal Dhruv, but below the Mi 17s, while sharing a lot of avionics and parts with the normal Dhruv and LCH.

So what do you guys think, too way off, or is it possible?

 

[sancho]

P.S. @ Spark, Sudhir007, Pandora and anybody else that often posts pics here, does anybody has a pic of the naval, or civil Dhruv with fully retracted gears? I could only find this so far:

 

[sudhir007]

P.S. @ Spark, Sudhir007, Pandora and anybody else that often posts pics here, does anybody has a pic of the naval, or civil Dhruv with fully retracted gears? I could only find this so far:

Please check the civil version of dhruv

 

[sudhir007]

 

[sancho]

Please check the civil version of dhruv

Thanks, but I'm searching for pics with the gears completelly folded inside. All pics I could find so far are on the ground, or during landings and even the ASW version did the torpedo launch trials, with the gears out, but I couldn't find another pic then the one I posted, with the gears half folded.
Btw, what you thought on the Dhruv changes, is it possible, or would it be too much changes for HAL, or for the heli itself?

 

[Abingdonboy]

Thanks, but I'm searching for pics with the gears completelly folded inside. All pics I could find so far are on the ground, or during landings and even the ASW version did the torpedo launch trials, with the gears out, but I couldn't find another pic then the one I posted, with the gears half folded.
Btw, what you thought on the Dhruv changes, is it possible, or would it be too much changes for HAL, or for the heli itself?

I think HAL has a lot on its plate right now and are concentrating on fulfilling existing orders and UPG Dhruv in blocks. I think your changes will exist on HAL's IMRH, of which they have already said will have a Naval version.

 

[sancho]

I think HAL has a lot on its plate right now and are concentrating on fulfilling existing orders and UPG Dhruv in blocks. I think your changes will exist on HAL's IMRH, of which they have already said will have a Naval version.

That's the point, IMRH is a long shot and will be a complete new development, while changing the naval Dhruv that already has all the necessary capabilties for ASW seems to be an easy task and we wouldn't buy these foreign ASW helicopters in between. Also IMRH seems to be aimed on the AW 101, Sikorsky S92, or Mi 38, while the NH90, or Sea Hawks are a between them and the normal Dhruv.

 

[nomi007]

i think Indians are interested in Apache & in Chinooks
both are best and highly advance than Russian
Russian are far behind USA in defense field if India need really advance helo than Apache is best but mi-28 with western avionics make the competition tough.
Chinooks are best relief operation helicopter in the world
for Ur information it really help Pakistan during earthquake time in 2005 & during flood in 2010
our news papers called him hero of relief operations.
so Indians are also need Chinooks not mi-26 which is too big.
Pakistan is also request to USA for ch-47d for Pakistan army for the operations
but we are interested in cobra ah-1z which is comparable to Apache block-3

 

[angeldemon_007]

That's the point, IMRH is a long shot and will be a complete new development, while changing the naval Dhruv that already has all the necessary capabilties for ASW seems to be an easy task and we wouldn't buy these foreign ASW helicopters in between. Also IMRH seems to be aimed on the AW 101, Sikorsky S92, or Mi 38, while the NH90, or Sea Hawks are a between them and the normal Dhruv.

I think there is a possibility of IMRH also based on dhruv just like you depicted in your pic. I hope we opt for the new design instead of going for the old ones which are going to be replaced by most of the companies. I hope HAL and our forces are aware of the latest developments in the field of helicopters. Even our Russian friends have plans to revive their helicopter industry, i hope we grab this chance.

 

[sancho]

I think there is a possibility of IMRH also based on dhruv just like you depicted in your pic. I hope we opt for the new design instead of going for the old ones which are going to be replaced by most of the companies. I hope HAL and our forces are aware of the latest developments in the field of helicopters. Even our Russian friends have plans to revive their helicopter industry, i hope we grab this chance.

The infos on IMRH looks more like a complete new development and I also hope that they will opt for a NG tech helicopter development, with Russians, or Europeans and not just develop another normal helicopter. The Kamov Ka 92 would be a perfect co-development project for us and however such developments takes much time, stretching the Dhruv seems to be easier and preferable instead of procuring foreign helicopters.