What's new

India has asked for time to study proposed Sukhoi upgrade: Rostec official

No country has unlimited funds including US & China.

Both Super Sukhoi and RAFALEs are approved projects.

Also, apart from opportunity costs there are Setup and Utilization costs too. What do you think the HAL's Sukhoi manufacturing plants would be doing between 2019 (when all SU-30s are built) and 2024 (when first FGFA build is expected to start) ?

thats why u indians will be dumb to cover the sunk costs for sukhoi

as well as to pay for the tejas...a failed fighter jet that was made for light combat.

tejas was never made to be a full combat fighter as evident in airframe, its more of a trainer.

not to mention that the tejas costs overruns is so great that it is the most overpriced 4G jet introduced in 5G era ever

india is no USA, it is the poorest largest country in Asia.

it has no money reserves at all
 
slightly more expensive than one rafale for the latest versions compared

Is it? Could you get RAFALE for $25 million?

HAL pegs price of Tejas fighter at Rs 162 crore
The price of Tejas is a fraction of the cost of the comparable Mirage-2000
Ajai Shukla | New Delhi January 11, 2014 Last Updated at 22:12 IST



Maharashtra govt puts on hold new ready recknor guidelinesTrading desk mulled for oilPM to showcase 56 oil, gas blocksNow, Shiv Sena wants 50% power tariff cutJapanese PM Abe to be Republic Day chief guest
The Tejas Mark I will be one of the world's most affordable fighters in its class. Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources tell Business Standard that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has quoted a price of Rs 162 crore per aircraft for the first 20 Tejas fighters that have begun production in Bangalore. That translates into a dollar price of approximately $26 million a fighter.

This is a fraction of the cost of the comparable Mirage-2000, which was bought relatively cheaply in the 1980s, but is currently being upgraded for Rs 280 crore ($45 million) per fighter. On December 19, 2011, Defence Minister A K Antony had told Parliament that Thales would get Euro 1.4 billion (Rs 11,830 crore today) for upgrading the Indian Air Force (IAF) fleet of 49 Mirage-2000 fighters, while HAL would get Rs 2,020 crore, i.e., a total of Rs 13,850 crore. Since the upgrade will only be completed by 2021, that cost would rise further if the rupee falls.



Antony also told Parliament the IAF's fleet of 69 MiG-29 fighters was being upgraded for $964 million, that is about Rs 87 crore per fighter, over and above the acquisition cost.

The Sukhoi-30MKI, a heavier and, therefore, more expensive fighter that HAL builds in Nashik, currently costs the IAF more than Rs 400 crore ($65 million) each. The Rafale medium multi-role fighter, which is currently being negotiated with Dassault, could cost between Rs 750 crore and Rs 850 crore ($120-140 million) each.

The JF-17 Thunder, the Pakistan Air Force's new light fighter that was "co-developed" with China is believed to be marginally cheaper, at $23-24 million per aircraft. However, the Tejas is significantly more advanced than the JF-17, being built from composite materials, incorporating an advanced fly-by-wire system, and fitted with more advanced avionics.

The MoD is bargaining with HAL over the Tejas' Rs 162 crore price tag, pointing that HAL had, in 2006, quoted a unit price of Rs 116.49 crore per fighter. HAL argues the rupee's decline (some 45 per cent of the Tejas comes from abroad) and inflation over the past 8 years warrants a 40 per cent rise.

During a recent tour of the Tejas assembly line, Business Standard was briefed about HAL's initiatives to slash the cost of the Tejas, rendering it more attractive to the IAF. HAL's first step has been to target economy of scale by developing its assembly line and supply chains for 200 fighters, though the IAF has only committed to buying just 40 Tejas Mark I fighters so far.

In planning ambitiously, HAL has the MoD's support. Antony announced last month in Bangalore, when the Tejas was being inducted into the IAF, that about 200 fighters would be eventually built in Mark I and Mark II configurations.

By HAL's reckoning, these include 20 Tejas Mark I fighters in the current configuration; and 20 more once Final Operational Clearance is received at the end of 2014 (the IAF has already committed to buying these two squadrons). Next, HAL plans to build 84 Tejas Mark II (four squadrons). The navy has already ordered 8 Naval Tejas; and is planning to order 11 Naval Tejas trainers soon. When development is complete, about 46 Naval Tejas will be ordered for India's two indigenous aircraft carriers - INS Vikrant and its successor.

HAL is also developing a cost-effective supply chain by establishing Long Time Business Agreements (LTBAs) of 3-5 years with its sub-vendors. Instead of giving them piecemeal orders, HAL assures its sub-vendors of production orders for up to 40-50 aircraft sets. Having provided them business confidence and driven down prices, HAL negotiates yearly requirements with them in tandem with its production rate, ensuring the in-flow of raw materials and parts to keep the Tejas line rolling. As IAF/navy orders grow, these vendors are assured of further business provided their performance and prices remain satisfactory.

Long lead components, which require time to build and sometimes have a high rejection rate, have been identified and addressed. The Tejas line will have a high quality machining shop with state-of-the-art five-axis CNC machines. For critical parts like the Tejas' carbon composite wing skin, these machines will replace the manual drilling of 8,000 holes, using instead a computerised drilling programme that will reduce cycle time, errors and production cost.

"With measures like these, we will improve the Tejas' build quality and eliminate rework, rejection and delays. Bringing down the 'Standard Man Hour' for series production, when compared to building prototypes, will automatically reduce the production cost of the Tejas," says RK Tyagi, chairman of HAL.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...s-fighter-at-rs-162-crore-114011100829_1.html
 
This news is not about procuring additional SU-30 MKIs rather to upgrade the existing SU-30 MKIs to Super Sukhoi standards. This project will have zero positive impact on the falling numbers.
I was also incorporating your first response to this thread regarding the impact of delays in quick upgrade. Also, upgrading the capabilities is a mitigation strategy for low numbers which you are suggesting. Anyway, I should have been more clear.
My logic is, point defence fighter should be Indian (Tejas, already is), high end for SEAD/DEAD missions Rafale, air superiority MKI (Russian). How long we gonna keep paying for Russians jobs. In longer run, our aim should be replace all these fighters with Indian ones. We have to start some where, and saving this 8 billion upgrade is starting point, use these 8 billions to make long term decisions, which will result in Tejas MK2 and AMCA flying sooner than later.
 
Last edited:
I was also incorporating your first response to this thread regarding the impact of delays in quick upgrade. Also, upgrading the capabilities is also a mitigation strategy for low numbers which you are suggesting. Anyway, I should have been more clear.
My logic is, point defence fighter should be Indian (Tejas, already is), high end for SEAD/DEAD missions Rafale, air superiority MKI (Russian). How long we gonna keep paying for Russians jobs. In longer run, our aim should be replace all these fighters with Indian ones. We have to start some where, and saving this 8 billion upgrade is starting point, use these 8 billions to make long term decisions, which will result in Tejas MK2 and AMCA flying sooner than later.

Super Sukhoi upgrade would happen between 2019-2024. AMCA would only start after we start building FGFA (starting 2024 or later) as it is dependent on FGFA ToT from Russia. There is no option but to upgrade SU-30 MKIs to Super Sukhois.

$8 billion for 300 SU-30 MKIs translates to $26 million for each fighter upgrade. India paid $45 million for upgrade of each Mirage-2000. Hence all this due diligence talk is simple bakwas.
 
Super Sukhoi upgrade would happen between 2019-2024. AMCA would only start after we start building FGFA (starting 2024 or later) as it is dependent on FGFA ToT from Russia. There is no option but to upgrade SU-30 MKIs to Super Sukhois.

$8 billion for 300 SU-30 MKIs translates to $26 million for each fighter upgrade. India paid $45 million for upgrade of each Mirage-2000. Hence all this due diligence talk is simple bakwas.
TOT is myth bro. No one will part their high end IP, be either Russia or France. But still, 8 billion are going to Russians, arn't they? FGFA actually broke the camel's back as far trusting the Russians is concerned. They were taking us for a ride, and want us to finance the R&D for the final product. Do you think Chinese are stupid, they offered fifth gen JV to China first and they declined. Don't take this personally, but your statement 'AMCA would only only start after the FGFA TOT from Russia' sums up about what is wrong with Indian psyche. Spend those 8 billion with single minded intent to get the AMCA flying, and it will happen.
 
TOT is myth bro. No one will part their high end IP, be either Russia or France. But still, 8 billion are going to Russians, arn't they? FGFA actually broke the camel's back as far trusting the Russians is concerned. They were taking us for a ride, and want us to finance the R&D for the final product. Do you think Chinese are stupid, they offered fifth gen JV to China first and they declined. Don't take this personally, but your statement 'AMCA would only only start after the FGFA TOT from Russia' sums up about what is wrong with Indian psyche. Spend those 8 billion with single minded intent to get the AMCA flying, and it will happen.

Of course no supplier would like to transfer tech and kill their golden goose but suppliers would transfer which they may deem as not cutting edge. That should be fine, as India is so lower down the chain, as of today. China is in much more advanced stage in manufacturing than India. So they declining makes sense. But FGFA fully makes sense for India as there is no other alternative on the horizon. No. Throwing money at a problem does not resolve it. If money could solve the issues, we would already have the Kaveri engine.
 
Last edited:
Of course no supplier would like to transfer tech and kill their golden goose but suppliers would transfer which they may deem as not cutting edge. That should be fine, as India is so lower down the chain, as of today. China is in much more advanced stage in manufacturing than India. So they declining makes sense. But FGFA fully makes for sense for India as there is no other alternative on the horizon. No. Throwing money at a problem does not resolve it. If money could solve the issues, we would already have the Kaveri engine.
Totally agree with engine statement. It is more of an art than exact science. However, more money always helps, that means more trials and errors thus going to ultimate destination a little bit quicker. FGFA is fine, however, Russians want us to be happy with T50. Good on IAF for insisting on FGFA than half baked fifth gen like T50. That's why we are stalling the FGFA negotiations as we are not getting FGFA and not happy with T50.
 
Totally agree with engine statement. It is more of an art than exact science. However, more money always helps, that means more trials and errors thus going to ultimate destination a little bit quicker. FGFA is fine, however, Russians want us to be happy with T50. Good on IAF for insisting on FGFA than half baked fifth gen like T50. That's why we are stalling the FGFA negotiations as we are not getting FGFA and not happy with T50.

FGFA would would inspired by T-50 & PAK-FA but would entirely new fighter based on Indian requirements.

This has already been sorted out.

Russian-Indian fighter to be in no way inferior to Russia’s PAK FA
Military & Defense
June 19, 15:24UTC+3
India, alongside Russia, will obtain not just know-how, but the copyright to a newly-designed military product, the chief of the federal service for military-technical cooperation noted
Share
115
1171103.jpg

T-50 PAK FA fighter jets
© Sergei Bobylev/TASS
LE BOURGET, June 19. /TASS/. Russian-Indian fifth generation jet FGFA (Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft) will be in no way inferior to the PAK FA plane developed for the Russian Aerospace Force, the chief of the federal service for military-technical cooperation, Dmitry Shugayev, told the media on Monday.



READ ALSO

Russian aircraft designer to produce two newest PAK FA fighter jets


"India, alongside Russia, will obtain not just know-how, but the copyright to a newly-designed military product. In other words, if the contract is signed and the inter-government agreement is acted on - and this is precisely what we are striving for - this plane will be in no way inferior to our PAK FA," Shugayev said at the Le Bourget show.

"Onboard equipment may be different, for instance, of India’s own manufacture. This plane will be adjusted to the needs of the Indian market. The parameters will not be inferior to the national product in use in Russia. It will be reconfigured to suit the customer’s needs," he added.

No other country, Shugayev said, was prepared to share such sensitive technologies with India.


The FGFA agreement was signed in 2007. At the beginning of May a source at India’s Defense Ministry told the PTI news agency the contract for designing a detailed project of a new fighter jet would be concluded in the second half of 2017. Russian officials last spring said that Russia fully complied with its liabilities under the project and was waiting for the Indian side to make a decision.



More:
http://tass.com/defense/952139
 

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom