India & France In Talks For 36 More Rafales?

[Hamza913]

And what makes a 4th gen a 4th gen?

I dunno, ask an aircraft expert!

 

[Armchair-General]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth-generation_jet_fighter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth-generation_jet_fighter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth-generation_jet_fighter

 

[proud_indian]

India have huge amount of money so they can buy.i think India considers France as a reliable partner and I think iaf likes Rafale but there must be a project to make fighter jets under make in India.make in India is sidelined.

Make in India is not at all sidelined, Eventually Rafale will be made in India at Dassault Reliance Aviation Limited (DRAL) as we need a lot of those not just another 36 more. Even our Navy requires 56 Rafale/F-18 and besides that DRAL will make Dassault Falcon series passenger aircrafts at this facility.

But the most important Made in India aircraft for us is Tejas and our defence minister has already announced to make 83 in MK1-A configuration and 200 plus in MK-2 configuration and we are already making 20 in IOC configuration and 20 in FOC configration MK-1 aircrafts.

 

[Hamza913]

Frankly, we don't have a 5th gen fighter in line as of now. FGFA maybe scrapped looking at the recent developments and even if we go for the F-35, we would be last in line and dealing with Americans comes with a lot of strings attached. Moreover, Su-30MKI is a heavy fighter and we need a medium fighter to fill in the gap between the MKI's and LCA's.

I hope MoD allocates more funds to fastrack the development of AMCA while pruchasing 36 more Rafales making them the last import ever for IAF

I am aware that there isn't really a 5th gen fighter available for Hindustan at the moment, but wouldn't the funds going to Rafale be better spent on developing the Tejas or (as you said) AMCA? Or why not buy more of the aircraft currently in Hindustan's inventory, rather than buying more platforms? Wouldn't it be more cost effective, and easier for your pilots?

Not to mention France completely ripped you guys off, the price for just 36 of those planes was insane.

 

[proud_indian]

And what makes a 4th gen a 4th gen?

That is why I am saying that 4th gen is a very generic term and most avionics in Rafale are 5th gen and it also possess world's best Meteor missile, A mature AESA radar, Arguably the best electronic warfare system Spectra and many more like this .

What do you think of JF-17 (It's a serious question)? Do you categorize it a 4th gen aircraft?

I am aware that there isn't really a 5th gen fighter available for Hindustan at the moment, but wouldn't the funds going to Rafale be better spent on developing the Tejas or (as you said) AMCA? Or why not buy more of the aircraft currently in Hindustan's inventory, rather than buying more platforms? Wouldn't it be more cost effective, and easier for your pilots?

Not to mention France completely ripped you guys off, the price for just 36 of those planes was insane.

We are already working on our own %th gen aircraft AMCA, but it will be produced only in 2030+. You can see the iterative design evolution in the illustration below.

and as far as Rafale is concerned we fetched a good deal and all the fuss is just political drama.

 

[Hamza913]

That is why I am saying that 4th gen is a very generic term and most avionics in Rafale are 5th gen and it also possess world's best Meteor missile, A mature AESA radar, Arguably the best electronic warfare system Spectra and many more like this .

What do you think of JF-17 (It's a serious question)? Do you categorize it a 4th gen aircraft?



We are already working on our own %th gen aircraft AMCA, but it will be produced only in 2030+. You can see the iterative design evolution in the illustration below.

and as far as Rafale is concerned we fetch a good deal and all the fuss is just political drama.

There is a difference between 4th and 4.5th gen aircraft. The Rafale is 4.5th gen, the JF-17 is 4th gen (but should be 4.5th gen with block 3 inshallah).

Why not spend more on the AMCA to speed things up then? Why go for Rafales when you can get something better? Going for Rafales seems very short sited in my opinion.

You guys got completely ripped off, 36 planes are not worth that much money.

 

[proud_indian]

There is a difference between 4th and 4.5th gen aircraft. The Rafale is 4.5th gen, the JF-17 is 4th gen (but should be 4.5th gen with block 3 inshallah).

Do you think JF-17 block 3 will be comparable to Rafale? If not then what would you call Rafale? 4.8 gen?

Will it be able to compete with SU30 MKI? And we will soon upgrade our MKI fleet to Super Sukhoi standard, which will be far superior to even SU-35 and will incorporate a lot of PAK-FA/T-50 technologies, New engines, Next gen ASEA and a whole lot of new munitions and all other fancy avionics. Again what would you call it? 4.9 gen? Or do you think JF-17 and Super Sukhoi-30 MKI will be of same generation?

That is why I am saying this whole generation thing is very generic and far too simplistic. There are 4th gen planes like JF-17 that cost 25 million USD and there are 4th planes like Rafale and typhoon which would cost 100+ million USD. Can they all be put in the same basket? You should ask yourself this question.

Why not spend more on the AMCA to speed things up then? Why go for Rafales when you can get something better? Going for Rafales seems very short sited in my opinion.

How many 5th gen aircraft are already operational as of now? This is a technology which need to be developed, it's not available off the shelf. Even if we start developing them today, How much time does it take to develop a fighter aircraft, let alone a 5th gen aircraft and we needed rafales like yesterday just to maintain minimum numbers in operation and to replace legacy fighters like Mig-21.

You guys got completely ripped off, 36 planes are not worth that much money.

Please explain how?

 

[Hamza913]

Do you think JF-17 block 3 will be comparable to Rafale? If not then what would you call Rafale? 4.8 gen?

Will it be able compete with SU30 MKI? And we will soon upgrade our MKI fleet to Super Sukhoi standard, which will far superior to even SU-35 and will incorporate a lot of PAK-FA/T-50 technologies, New engines, Next gen ASEA and a whole lot of new munitions and all other fancy avionics. Again what woul you call it? 4.9 gen? Or do you think JF-17 and Super Sukhoi-30 MKI will be of same generation?



How many 5th gen aircraft are already operational as of now? This is a technology which need to be developed, it's not available off the shelf. Even if we start developing them today, How much time does it take to develop a fighter aircraft, let alone a 5th gen aircraft and we needed rafales like yesterday just to maintain minimum numbers in operation and to replace legacy fighters like Mig-21.



Please explain how?

Obviously they would be comparable, they would all be 4.5th gen. The Rafale would just be better (not sure about the Flanker though). Just because they aren't equal doesn't mean the Rafale/Flanker is magically 5th gen or the JF-17 is magically 3rd gen. Generations themselves are a lose term, but the aircraft that fall within them are all within a similar range of capability. What's most important is what is supporting that plane, the weapons it carries and how fast it can get up in the air.

Why not try to replace legacy fighters with an even better aircraft than the Rafale (AMCA), or with an aircraft you can procure on demand, with no strings attached (Tejas)?

You gave those French guys way too much money for just 36 planes. Even your own people agree with me on that one:

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/mot...me-clean-says-congress-on-rafale-deal-1822269

 

[proud_indian]

Obviously they would be comparable, they would all be 4.5th gen. The Rafale would just be better (not sure about the Flanker though). Just because they aren't equal doesn't mean the Rafale/Flanker is magically 5th gen or the JF-17 is magically 3rd gen. Generations themselves are a lose term, but the aircraft that fall within them are all within a similar range of capability. What's most important is what is supporting that plane, the weapons it carries and how fast it can get up in the air.

I don't have much to say if you think JF-17 and Rafale / Flanker would be comparable.

And I am not saying that JF-17 would be a 3rd gen aircraft, I never said this, I said above and I am quoting again

"That is why I am saying this whole generation thing is very generic and far too simplistic. There are 4th gen planes like JF-17 that cost 25 million USD and there are 4th planes like Rafale and typhoon which would cost 100+ million USD. Can they all be put in the same basket? You should ask yourself this question."

Why not try to replace legacy fighters with an even better aircraft than the Rafale (AMCA), or with an aircraft you can procure on demand, with no strings attached (Tejas)?

You didn't read my post above, Did you? We need to replace all these aircrafts by 2020 (Actually we should have retired them long ago but somehow we are dragging them to maintain minimum squadrons) and I don't really think AMCA or any other 5th gen aircraft will be available by then. And you are forgetting that we will upgrade our whole fleet of flanker with a lot of 5th gen technology.

You gave those French guys way too much money for just 36 planes. Even your own people agree with me on that one:

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/mot...me-clean-says-congress-on-rafale-deal-1822269

I already told you this is just another political drama and nothing else.

 

[Hamza913]

I don't have much to say if you think JF-17 and Rafale / Flanker would be comparable.

And I am not saying that JF-17 would be a 3rd gen aircraft, I never said this, I said above and I am quoting again

"That is why I am saying this whole generation thing is very generic and far too simplistic. There are 4th gen planes like JF-17 that cost 25 million USD and there are 4th planes like Rafale and typhoon which would cost 100+ million USD. Can they all be put in the same basket? You should ask yourself this question."




You didn't read my post above, Did you? We need to replace all these aircrafts by 2020 (Actually we should have retired them long ago but somehow we are dragging them to maintain minimum squadrons) and I don't really think AMCA or any other 5th gen aircraft will be available by then. And you are forgetting that we will upgrade our whole fleet of flanker with a lot of 5th gen technology.




I already told you this is just another political drama and nothing else.

JF-17 is comparable enough to be part of the same generation, it's better to compare it with other 4th gen light aircraft such as the Gripen or Tejas, rather than brutes like the Flanker or Rafale.

Even with these acquisitions, your goal of 2020 won't be met. Anyway, it would be better to do things in the most effective manner, rather than in the fastest manner possible.

Your flankers will only be 5th gen if you give them stealth technology. I doubt that will happen.

It's more than just drama. You paid way too much for those planes as compared to other Rafale customers.

 

[proud_indian]

JF-17 is comparable enough to be part of the same generation, it's better to compare it with other 4th gen light aircraft such as the Gripen or Tejas, rather than brutes like the Flanker or Rafale.

Even with these acquisitions, your goal of 2020 won't be met. Anyway, it would be better to do things in the most effective manner, rather than in the fastest manner possible.

Your flankers will only be 5th gen if you give them stealth technology. I doubt that will happen.

It's more than just drama. You paid way too much for those planes as compared to other Rafale customers.

I won't discuss the first part anymore.

Why do you think that even with acquisition 2020 goal won't be met? Would you to explain?

Again I will tell you there is more to 5th gen then just stealth.

You are keep on repeating the same thing but you haven't explained how we paid too much money?

 

[Hamza913]

I won't discuss the first part anymore.

Why do you think that even with acquisition 2020 goal won't be met? Would you to explain?

Again I will tell you there is more to 5th gen then just stealth.

You are keep on repeating the same thing but you haven't explained how we paid too much money?

You have too many 3rd gen planes to replace them all by 2020.

Yes, but stealth is the main feature.

Have you seen the numbers? Look at them, then get back to me.

 

[proud_indian]

You have too many 3rd gen planes to replace them all by 2020.

Yes, but stealth is the main feature.

Have you seen the numbers? Look at them, then get back to me.

I know we have too many of those but please explain how can we replace those with 5th gen planes. Which 5th plane is there to replace them?

That's what I am saying it's the main feature but not the only one.

You are saying that we paid more than the other customers then why don't you tell me the numbers?

 

[Hamza913]

I know we have too many of those but please explain how can we replace those with 5th gen planes. Which 5th plane is there to replace them?

That's what I am saying it's the main feature but not the only one.

You are saying that we paid more than the other customers then why don't you tell me the numbers?

I was suggesting using a combination of Tejas and 5th gen aircraft to replace them.

I'll explain:

Hindustan spent almost 9 billion USD on 36 Rafale aircraft. To put things in perspective, Qatar spent a little over 1 billion USD on 12 Rafale aircraft. Also, think about how many Tejas aircraft could have been made with that cash instead to replace the legacy fighters, or how much further the plane could have been developed.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/india-...t-aviation-for-rafale-fighter-jets-1474624503

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/qatar-france-sign-1bn-fighter-jet-deal-amid-gulf-crisis-1784950

 

[royalharris]

More sitting ducks

 

[$@rJen]

More sitting ducks

Ya...the sitting duck... Here bomb it