India falls behind neighbours in health, social indicators: UN

[Flintlock]

If someone still thinks breaking up into nation states make sense then please take a comprehensive look at the state of smaller nations surrounding India and far forward they have come and then look at the Peoples Republic of China and what they have done with a vast Nation. The answer will be there in front of you .

The point is that advantages of forming a union far outweigh the drawbacks.

I for one cannot imagine the mess 30 different states with 30 different armies fighting over the waters from the Ganga and the Godavari will cause.

Reminds me of a story from the panchatantra: Two dogs are fighting over a chapati, and they cannot come to an agreement, but are trying to snatch it away from each other. A monkey comes along and sees an opportunity for himself. He agrees to help solve the dispute if he is given a small portion of the chapati. I think most Indians will know how the story ends.

It will be a sad day if we forget one of our hardest lessons from history - united we stand, divided we fall.

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

Well, thank ye Tamil Nadu!

But its important to know that each state does make some contribution or the other, and nobody is "footing the bill" as such. Bihar provides most of India's coal and Iron Ore for example.

Actually I was trying to pint out indirectly to Pakistani posters (Especially the ones talking about economic independence) that despite being culturally and socially different (Heck we even have region specific Gods)and a sessionist movement near our eastern borders(Sri Lanka) we have no qualms about calling ourselves "Proud Indians" . Sublimally the message implies that to shake India's bedrock as a union you need a state like lke TN or AP or Kerala to scessed from the union and frankly that aint happening. So India as a country is safe and secure as a union \

As far as my comments on Bihar goes, I apologise for going a little overboard. Frankly it is a feeling that stems out of frustration that despite our contribution to the nation, it is north that projects itself as the face of India and I sometimes find it condescending and demeaning to my rich culture. Also there must be a equitable representation or distribution of power based on states contribution and not by population, why must any other state(Bihar , UP) other then Delhi decide whho is in power or not, heck when was the last time our voice was heared in the centres .May be others might feel a little different, hey but then what is a family without ego clashes...

I just at times wonder as to how leaders from BIMARU have time to fiddle in national affairs and create a scene when their population needs all their attention. The way Mayawati or Lalu hob nob as national leaders irks a lot of us. The height of madness was when the Media (North) went on a Mayawati blitzkreig as a potential PM. Heck she could not manage her own state, how on earth does the media think she is wrthy of running the country.

Bihar provides most of India's coal and Iron Ore for example.

True but then if you had sat through infinite number of International development meetings, conferences, seminar you will feel the same frustration as I do . Every time despite all our hardwork the neame poor thirdworld sticks with us thanks to the BIMARU states. We did our job right, what wrong did we do to earn such a name.

What irks me most is the way most educated Biharis and UP'ites desert their own states rather then staying back and reforming it.

Le us hope one day change will come, where the new order replaces the old gaurd bringing in development and hope across my fellow brethen.

Tamil Nadu could do a lot better without Karunanidhi, in my humble opinion.

Err depends... He brings in lot of investment. Tamilnadu is an automotive, telecoms, heavy engineering and IT hub thanks to the investment he has brought in. That does'nt mean he is free from corrution but then it chossing the better of the both he is relatively better then Jaaya (Mayawati of Soth India).

May I ask why you came to such an opinion.

IPF

 

[Flintlock]

Actually I was trying to pint out indirectly to Pakistani posters (Especially the ones talking about economic independence) that despite being culturally and socially different (Heck we even have region specific Gods)and a sessionist movement near our eastern borders(Sri Lanka) we have no qualms about calling ourselves "Proud Indians" . Sublimally the message implies that to shake India's bedrock as a union you need a state like lke TN or AP or Kerala to scessed from the union and frankly that aint happening. So India as a country is safe and secure as a union

If I remember my history correctly, Kerala was the first state to join the union willingly. That was indeed a proud moment in our history, and I may even go so far as to say that Kerala has done quite well for itself!

I don't think you need to defend yourself here IPF, South India has indeed done far better than the East, and its quite okay to chide the other states at their poor record.
However, let us remember the reasons behind that - the South has not suffered from colonialism as much as the Gangetic plains, which were always the first to be conquered and their society torn asunder by foreigners who had little respect for the rules of the country they were coming to - whether it may be the Afghans or the British.

Let us remember that the structure of the village - the nucleus of local identity and development - is still very much intact in the south - an unbroken thread dating back thousands of years. The physical evidence is there as well - every few miles, a temple tower rises from the palm trees, each with its own history, and each a source of pride for its people. The Gangetic plains haven't had that luxury unfortunately. 3000+ years of civilization, and the amount of physical evidence for it is startlingly little. That is not surprising, since most of it has been destroyed - many, many times.

As far as my comments on Bihar goes, I apologise for going a little overboard. Frankly it is a feeling that stems out of frustration that despite our contribution to the nation, it is north that projects itself as the face of India and I sometimes find it condescending and demeaning to my rich culture. Also there must be a equitable representation or distribution of power based on states contribution and not by population, why must any other state(Bihar , UP) other then Delhi decide whho is in power or not, heck when was the last time our voice was heared in the centres .May be others might feel a little different, hey but then what is a family without ego clashes...

Again, no need to apologize. Everyone loves taking shots at Bihar! Its indeed a national shame that a state could do so poorly!

But wait a minute - why do you think the North is the face of India? Perhaps till the 80s, yes - when all people thought of India was the Taj Mahal.
Now, the new face of India is in the South. The south attracts most of India's business, and I think it recently also began to receive more tourists than the north.

I'm not North Indian myself, I"m from Maharashtra, and I can tell you that we all love to take shots that Bihar and UP.

There is a silver lining though - with the license raj system gone, and more power being given to the states to manage their own economy - they will have more influence in the centre. It will take time, but I can see states like Karnataka, Gujarat and TN having a larger role in the centre.

I just at times wonder as to how leaders from BIMARU have time to fiddle in national affairs and create a scene when their population needs all their attention. The way Mayawati or Lalu hob nob as national leaders irks a lot of us. The height of madness was when the Media (North) went on a Mayawati blitzkreig as a potential PM. Heck she could not manage her own state, how on earth does the media think she is wrthy of running the country.

Well, the reason for that is quite simple frankly - UP has a pretty large number of seats in the Parliament, so any politician who wins there has a decent shot at the larger role.

True but then if you had sat through infinite number of International development meetings, conferences, seminar you will feel the same frustration as I do . Every time despite all our hardwork the neame poor thirdworld sticks with us thanks to the BIMARU states. We did our job right, what wrong did we do to earn such a name.

Well, that's the price of being together I guess. You have to share both your success and your failure.

The best way out is for each state to build its own brand - not an easy task - but Modi for example is doing a helluva job of marketing Gujarat.

Err depends... He brings in lot of investment. Tamilnadu is an automotive, telecoms, heavy engineering and IT hub thanks to the investment he has brought in. That does'nt mean he is free from corrution but then it chossing the better of the both he is relatively better then Jaaya (Mayawati of Soth India).

Well, my friends from Chennai have a pretty low opinion of him - he apparently keeps going on the rampage against hindu gods rather than concentrating on developing the state.

Jayalalitha versus karunanidhi is quite fun - I vividly remember Karunanidhi being arrested in the middle of his night live on television and being carried out against his wishes.

 

[Contrarian]

You are entitled to take potshots at Bihar, UP, Orissa, etc but please do remember, your coal, gold, copper, minerals, etc come from these areas. And these have powered our economy and factories till nuclear power started in South India among other things.

Growth in South India has also been a DIRECT result of the presence of these states. Also dont forget that the entire damn IT industry in Bangalore is being run because of North Indians! When i went to Bangalore, i saw-most of the IT techies being from North India, and Maharashtra.

 

[Vinod2070]

Dear Vinod2070; sir
i guss its about time, that both india & pakistan, should stop calling shots on each other, & should try to be real brothers.
if we start , to think positive, i guss we can achive more!
even on this fourm, i am , just fed up with questions & counter questions, thread with counter thread, posts with counter posts!
we should bring our selves closer, not to take our selves more far?

Agreed without reservations. The world is trying to come together and we in SA can't afford to lag behind.

It does grave injustice to the genius and capabilities of our people who are second to none in the world.

 

[Vinod2070]

It doesn't mention NA, it mentions NWFP. NA is administratively part of Azad Kashmir. It is not inhabitated by pashtuns or afghans.

This article was based on Ralph Peter's plan for the reorganization of the Middle East. If you look at that map, you can see what I am talking about. I don't want to post that map here. It has been done on this forum earlier.

I do not wish for Bharat to break, but I have come to the conclusion that it is both inevitable and good for peace and prosperity in South Asia.

You know many other people have come to similar conclusions about your country. That includes not only Indians but several Western countries and may be also your Western neighbor. I don't have to mention any sources to you, I guess. You are well read yourself.

Personally I have no wish to see any country break. The best alternative is if such countries which are a concern to much of the world can mend their ways while remaining united.

My sheer hatred? That's some accusation, especially from someone like you (Aap kay munh say konsay phool jhar rahay hain?).

Just because I criticise the policies of the Bharati establishment against its minorities, and believe that Bharat should downsize, i'm being branded an India-Hater.

How will the "downsizing" help the minorities? They will only likely become further marginalized and divided into smaller groups as it happened with the earlier downsizing that we went through in 1947.

You want India to "downsize" because you feel small compared to India, not because of any concerns for anyone. Just admit this to yourself.

Do you agree with all the policies of the Pakistani establishment? What is the solution to that?

And I don't hate any country or any religion. I hate only those who hate India and wish bad for her or want her to "downsize".

Just because I feel like arguing, 100 percent - 90 percent = 10 percent, not 1 percent.

Both our countries have a spectrum of people, from the peaceniks at any cost who light candles at the Wagah to the LET variety who send suicide terrorists in India.

The vast majority is somewhere in between, those who have no inherent hatred of the other and would be fine if the other side stopped behaving like an enemy. The Lahore test match where the Pakistani fans cheered Indian fans waving Indian flags after an Indian win proved that to me.

But there are those 10 % who would stop at nothing and would cut their nose to spite the face. The top 10% among these 10 % (that is where the 1% comes in) would be willing to self destruct if they can also cause pain to the other.

So no, it is not because you feel like arguing, it is because you have no problems in seeing countless people suffer (actually that is the idea I guess) when a country goes through the breaking pangs. Even something approaching that is so painful, ask your compatriots in FATA and NWFP.

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

Also dont forget that the entire damn IT industry in Bangalore is being run because of North Indians!

Nope the entire IT industry (I am not talking about BPO) is run by middle class engineering kids from South India namely AP,TN, Karnataka and Kerala and to some extent Maharashtra and Kerala. Period. I challenege you to prove me otherwise. I accept that BPO is dominated by North Indians.

Except for DU, DCE, BITS I don't find any other education system with quality in North capable of feeding engineers in an industrial scale to ITlike the way south does.

IPF

 

[johnee]

You are entitled to take potshots at Bihar, UP, Orissa, etc but please do remember, your coal, gold, copper, minerals, etc come from these areas. And these have powered our economy and factories till nuclear power started in South India among other things.

Growth in South India has also been a DIRECT result of the presence of these states. Also dont forget that the entire damn IT industry in Bangalore is being run because of North Indians! When i went to Bangalore, i saw-most of the IT techies being from North India, and Maharashtra.

that is an overstatement..........bangalore is the IT hub of india and all techies in india will end up there irrespective of their region.........
you will find equal number of south-indians as well if not more involved in IT industry.......so dont come to wrong conclusions......

yes, bihar and UP might have been contributing in some way.........but the reality today is that these two states are seriously lagging behind rest of india due to politics......development is almost nil there as a result there are migrations to the rest of the india which puts pressure at those parts......so high time that politicians of bihar and UP be pulled up by someone.......

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

You are entitled to take potshots at Bihar, UP, Orissa, etc but please do remember, your coal, gold, copper, minerals, etc come from these areas. And these have powered our economy and factories till nuclear power started in South India among other things.

True, we all have mutually benifitted from each other immensley. But how does this justify the fact that both UP and Bihar are given undue advantage in politics and national policies ?

 

[Vinod2070]

Nope the entire IT industry (I am not talking about BPO) is run by middle class engineering kids from South India namely AP,TN, Karnataka and Kerala and to some extent Maharashtra and Kerala. Period. I challenege you to prove me otherwise. I accept that BPO is dominated by North Indians.

Except for DU, DCE, BITS I don't find any other education system with quality in North capable of feeding engineers in an industrial scale to ITlike the way south does.

IPF

I beg to differ. Most of the IT industry is based in the South and that is the reason that majority of professional are South Indians. But still a very significant number is from the North, especially in the top end companies. The situation of the companies based in the North is naturally the reverse with North Indians being the majority there.

Again, in terms of education, South is ahead in Engineering education and they have a historical advantage in that area. Most of the private Engineering colleges opened in the South and Maharashtra earlier and they have come in handy for the IT boom when it came. The quality of these institutes and the graduates is far from great most of the time but many of them make decent professional after the companies put them through the training process.

 

[johnee]

True, we all have mutually benifitted from each other immensley. But how does this justify the fact that both UP and Bihar are given undue advantage in politics and national policies ?

exactly.......even when politicians of these places are of worst grade in entire india....except perhaps karunanidhi........

 

[Bushroda]

Being an ethnic North Indian (although born & brought up in Mumbai) & a software consultant I believe am in a better position to answer here. It is beyond any doubt that the Knowledge industry is dominated by South Indian techies. Even the companies in major north Indian IT cities like Gurgaon/Noida has a substantial % of south Indians working there.

 

[Incredible India]

If I remember my history correctly, Kerala was the first state to join the union willingly. That was indeed a proud moment in our history, and I may even go so far as to say that Kerala has done quite well for itself!

Its not fully correct mate.
There was problem in the begining, especially with the Travancore kingdom. It is true that initially Travancore wanted to remain as an independent country.
The last ruler of Travancore was Chithira Thirunal Balarama Varma. His minister Sir C. P. Ramaswami Iyer, When the British decided to grant independence to India, the minister declared that Travancore would remain as an independent country, based on an "American model." Sir C.P.Ramasamy Iyer even made separate currency for travancore and he opposed uniting with union india. The tension between the local people, led by the Indian National Congress and the Communists, and Sir. C. P. Ramaswami Iyer led to revolts in various places of the country. In one such revolt in Punnapra-Vayalar in 1946, the Communists established their own government in the area. This was brutally crushed by the Travancore army and navy leading to hundreds of deaths. This led to further disturbances in the State, leading to more killings. The minister issued a statement in June 1947 that Travancore would never join India, and subsequently, an attempt was made on the life of Sir C.P. Ramaswamy Iyer following which he resigned and fled to Madras, to be succeeded by Sri PGN Unnithan. After these events, the Maharajah agreed to join India and Travancore was absorbed into the Indian union.

 

[Flintlock]

Its not fully correct mate.
There was problem in the begining, especially with the Travancore kingdom. It is true that initially Travancore wanted to remain as an independent country.
The last ruler of Travancore was Chithira Thirunal Balarama Varma. His minister Sir C. P. Ramaswami Iyer, When the British decided to grant independence to India, the minister declared that Travancore would remain as an independent country, based on an "American model." Sir C.P.Ramasamy Iyer even made separate currency for travancore and he opposed uniting with union india. The tension between the local people, led by the Indian National Congress and the Communists, and Sir. C. P. Ramaswami Iyer led to revolts in various places of the country. In one such revolt in Punnapra-Vayalar in 1946, the Communists established their own government in the area. This was brutally crushed by the Travancore army and navy leading to hundreds of deaths. This led to further disturbances in the State, leading to more killings. The minister issued a statement in June 1947 that Travancore would never join India, and subsequently, an attempt was made on the life of Sir C.P. Ramaswamy Iyer following which he resigned and fled to Madras, to be succeeded by Sri PGN Unnithan. After these events, the Maharajah agreed to join India and Travancore was absorbed into the Indian union.

K...that's quite a colourful set of events there.

Are you from Kerala?

 

[Incredible India]

K...that's quite a colourful set of events there.

Are you from Kerala?

Yes mate..
From Our Travancore kingdom...