India-China: The real military equation

[janon]

Why Indians are so sceptical about Chinese development. If China wants to be a world power, it must have good relations with India. That's the fact. China doesn't arm itself against India, it arms itself to counterbalance United States. For all those years US jets were owning the skies and US ships were the "leaders" of the sea. It's still the same. But no one in the damn asia didn't care about that. Why aren't we sceptical about US dominance? Are we raised by not asking this question in "democracies" and "freedoms" that we enjoy?

Hey people! Please wake up for just for one second. This world is not an equal world and suddenly China becomes a dominant force. This world is a unipolar world and China challanges that single polar. Therefore either be sceptical about any major force that unbalances the world, or don't be sceptical about any of them.

Indians, like China, had a long history of colonization by the west. It would be better to see two victims cooperating not to be weak again. Not two victims fighting eachother.

Well that is true of ANY two countries anywhere, that it is better to co-operate with each other, than to be at war with each other. But all countries have militaries, and they have to plan for the possibility of war. Neither India nor China has been aggressively calling for war (except on this forum). In the real world, India and China have a HUGE trade relationship that is expected to grow severalfold in future.

India has some legitimate concerns with respect to China, in that it is arming Pakistan. There are also some border issues that we haven't sorted out (but are doing). Also, with both countries rising economically and militarily, there is bound to be competition for resources. Keeping all this in mind, there is a remote possibility that we may have some sort of an armed conflict. In case of such a conflict, India doesn't want to get caught with its pants down, as it did in 1962, and that is why we are planning to secure our country. Other than that, India has ZERO hostile intentions with china.

So all this talk is just that - talk. While our military is preparing defences against China, our relations in all other spheres are growing by leaps and bounds. Heck, even in the military sphere, the two countries hold joint exercises, and train with each other. So the relations between India and China are not as hostile as you would think, by reading PDF.

As the Indian military says, we "hope for the best, but prepare for the worst". That is all.

 

[UKBengali]

@UKBengali:

"The F-22 may get ‘first look’ with the APG-77, the Advanced Infra Red Search and Track (AIRST) sensor having been deleted to save money, but the PAK-FA may get ‘first look’ using its advanced infrared sensor.The outcome will be difficult to predict as it will depend a lot on the combat skills of the pilots and the capabilities of the missiles for end-game kills. There is no guarantee that the F-22 will prevail every time" Carlo Kopp.

Infra-red sensors are much inferior to radars when it comes to detection range and reliability. Weather plays a big role when it comes to effectiveness. If they were so good then the US(and now China) would not have spent billions on creating stealth technology.

I agree with Carlo Knopp that fighters like F-22 and J-20 will not prevail every single time over PAK-FA but the fact remains that majority of the time PAK-FA pilots will have to face multiple BVR shots before they can fire back.

IMO, F-22>J20>PAK-FA=F-35 in air-combat.

 

[Lure]

Well that is true of ANY two countries anywhere, that it is better to co-operate with each other, than to be at war with each other. But all countries have militaries, and they have to plan for the possibility of war. Neither India nor China has been aggressively calling for war (except on this forum). In the real world, India and China have a HUGE trade relationship that is expected to grow severalfold in future.

India has some legitimate concerns with respect to China, in that it is arming Pakistan. There are also some border issues that we haven't sorted out (but are doing). Also, with both countries rising economically and militarily, there is bound to be competition for resources. Keeping all this in mind, there is a remote possibility that we may have some sort of an armed conflict. In case of such a conflict, India doesn't want to get caught with its pants down, as it did in 1962, and that is why we are planning to secure our country. Other than that, India has ZERO hostile intentions with china.

So all this talk is just that - talk. While our military is preparing defences against China, our relations in all other spheres are growing by leaps and bounds. Heck, even in the military sphere, the two countries hold joint exercises, and train with each other. So the relations between India and China are not as hostile as you would think, by reading PDF.

As the Indian military says, we "hope for the best, but prepare for the worst". That is all.

Well actually I was expeting such an answer.

First of all, I was targeting some people here with my message. Not the governments of China and India who are actually trying to cooperate in every field very responsilbly. China defines it's relations with India as the most important bilateral tie of China and Indian government is in a very similar position.

I'm also aware that India and China have some border problems about Aksai Chin province but as far as I know they are in negotiations to end this problem. Besides as you've said China is the top trade partner of India which is an indicator of good relations.

As I've said before I was just targeting the people who doesn't even question the current dominance of the world, and being sceptical about the "potential" dominance of China as if there is no nation dominating (and will be dominating in the observable future).

I just hope to see good China-India relations. Because both nations proved themselves to be so capable and they have contributed so much to today's society. Hence such nations should cooperate, and their citizens shouldn't warmonger. I guess you can learn this much by reading a pdf

 

[S-DUCT]

Infra-red sensors are much inferior to radars when it comes to detection range and reliability. Weather plays a big role when it comes to effectiveness. If they were so good then the US(and now China) would not have spent billions on creating stealth technology.

I agree on the 1st part but there are more tactics in PAK-FA slieves .Well I think you know that later tranches of F-22 are going to have IRST.J-20s built in keeping stealthiness in mind Just like F-22. LO platform is not only criterion for 5th gen fighter.In fact later upgrades on F-22 would have.
1)The previously planned side-mounted AESA radar arrays
2)Infrared search and track (IRST)
3)Helmet-mounted sight

PAK-FA more speicifically FGFA would have all these above features like 360deg radar coverage,side and boon mounted IFF AESA.

Russians have played their game well because they did not went for stealth trap like Americans and chinese did by killing other aspects.

the fact remains that majority of the time PAK-FA pilots will have to face multiple BVR shots before they can fire back.

IMO, F-22>J20>PAK-FA=F-35 in air-combat.

Anyway Whenever any 5th generation fighter turns it radar on,it would become an easy target for Anti-radiation missiles.. If an F 22 and Pak-FA go on head to headdby the time the F 22 detects the PAK-FA it has lost it's major BVR advantage.
Take an example R-27EP ARM that has range of >130km and it fits well outside the detection range of APG-77 radar acquiring lock on PAK-FA.In these scenario the battle between 5th gen fighter would become dogfights just like in case of 1st gen fighter so the fighter which can detect the other while keeping radar EM emission Would the battle and even PAK-FA fails to do it(due to problems) so it can complete in vigrous Dog-fight.

IMO,PAK-FA>F-22=><J-20(Not sure of J-20 as there is very less info regarding her capabilities) in Air-combat.

 

[hurt]

you don't have choice to consider or not.......first dare to threaten puny state Vietnam who is giving hard every time..... . btw i like your profile name.... you always been hurt....

china might have stronger force than India..... but shouldn't underestimate Enemy in war.... and over estimate like your doing....

Nevamind.... there won't be any war between India and China.... None country is interested in forward policy..... We interested business with China more than in WAR...... we must aware of superior neighbor.... and should estimate the capacity if China to review our strength..... Did you guys stopped building massive Army and NAVY because US is light years ahead ?

business ? Now india and china which is rich?

 

[djsjs]

China to finish Tibet rail line close to Indian border soon - India - DNAChina has five airbases, extensive rail-road networks in Tibet: Antony - Times Of IndiaRoad network extends to all corners in Tibet_English_XinhuaAnd from an Indian (military) POV: China's Infrastructure Development in TibetHow Tibet's infrastructure compares to the rest of China is not relevant to Indians. What matters to the Indian military planners is the fact that China can rapidly bring division after division of troops to the border in case of a conflict. And that ability is what India hopes to thwart, through intelligent use of airpower, and other tactics.

your theory is strange.you mean we should NOT develop infrastructure in Tibet as it is near India,,if we follow your theory,then you should not develop Delhi or should move it to south India.haha.
PLEASE demolish your roads ,railways,airports,brigades in north and northeast India if their density is higher than Tibet.IT IS REALLY A KIND OF THREAT TO US .OMG,INTERESTING
BTW,please answer my questions directly or just ignore them as other members do.

 

[帅的一匹]

J-10B versus Rafale - Present J-10A can hold it's own against Su-27/30 and the new J-10B is a very radical upgrade. It's capabilities will be similar to the Rafale despite what Indians hope for. At the end of the day, the Rafale is still a 4th generation plane, albeit one of the best ones.

100,000+ supercarriers - China already has J-20, J-31 and Y-20 in flight testing. No-one thought that would be possible but it has happened. It has both the capability and intent to go for massive aircraft carriers. Wait 10 years and then you will see who is right.

try to image a J10b MOUNTED with 117S

If India keep thinking China will attack India, problem comes. The problem is India can't make it equation with China in the military power in the short run, the feeling of insecurity can't be easily eradicated by arm race. Now both 2 countries are the key member of BRICS, we should cooperate rather than go tit for tat.

 

[Koovie]

I suggest you read more on the Internet.

Try harder kiddo...............
No sources = you statement is crap....

 

[nair]

Stop equating China is in different league.... Lets respect that......

 

[scarcry]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...ng-muscles-govt-clears-brahmos-arunachal.html

Pantiya karo gan& maraoge

 

[janon]

your theory is strange.you mean we should NOT develop infrastructure in Tibet as it is near India,,if we follow your theory,then you should not develop Delhi or should move it to south India.haha.
PLEASE demolish your roads ,railways,airports,brigades in north and northeast India if their density is higher than Tibet.IT IS REALLY A KIND OF THREAT TO US .OMG,INTERESTING
BTW,please answer my questions directly or just ignore them as other members do.

WTF are you talking about? Where did I say China shouldn't develop infrastructure? You have comprehension issues.

 

[djsjs]

WTF are you talking about? Where did I say China shouldn't develop infrastructure? You have comprehension issues.

so why did you show me so many links about our infrastructure in Tibet?shouldnt Tibet developed better and better?what do want to tell us?

 

[janon]

so why did you show me so many links about our infrastructure in Tibet?shouldnt Tibet developed better and better?what do want to tell us?

BECAUSE YOU ASKED FOR IT. You asked this:

i dont know why there are so many indians in this forum who say our infrastructures in Tibet are good.can somebody tell me?are they really so good in your mind?

And I gave you a few links about china's infrastructure modernization in Tibet. I don't know from where you extrapolated that I said china shouldn't do it. You asked a question, I answered it. It's as simple as that.

 

[djsjs]

my question is IN YOUR MIND,NOT in some Midea's mind..........

 

[Anony]

J-10B versus Rafale -

100,000+ supercarriers - China already has J-20, J-31 and Y-20 in flight testing. No-one thought that would be possible but it has happened. It has both the capability and intent to go for massive aircraft carriers. Wait 10 years and then you will see who is right.

100,000+ fighters in 10 years, which means 10,000 fighters each year, again which means more than 800 fighters a month or 27 fighters a day. Dude think rationally before making such abstract comment.

Present J-10A can hold it's own against Su-27/30 and the new J-10B is a very radical upgrade. It's capabilities will be similar to the Rafale despite what Indians hope for. At the end of the day, the Rafale is still a 4th generation plane, albeit one of the best ones.

From where you get the data that J-10A is close to Su 27/30. And if it is yours view, please tell me based on what facts and exercises you drawn on this conclusion. Look we know that China is the strongest military power in Asia. But its strength not lies on the quality of its weapon, rather on quantity. Place where it stand ahead of countries like India is because of quantity.
For 50-100 odd ballistic missiles which India can point to China, China can returned that by pointing 400-500 ballistic towards India.

Look I list out the factors for you why J-10B whenever be ready will not be a match against Rafale.

1. Range : Rafale has a combat radius of 1100km only on internal fuel and 1850+ km with fuel on external hardpoints whereas J-10B will have close to 550km on internal fuel and 1100km when it will carry fuel on its external hardpoints.

2. RCS : RCS of Rafale is more than 5 times less compared to J-10B.

3. Radar : RBE2 AA Aesa radar of Rafale is more powerful than anything what China will have in near future.

4. Thrust : Thrust to weight ratio of Rafale is 1 (actually 0.99) with 100% internal fuel and that of j-10B is close to 1 with 50% internal fuel.

5. Avionics & Sensors : It's a very long list of difference. Read yourself to understand why Rafale.

6. Maneuverability & agility : Rafale Maneuverability and agility standards are famous in the entire aviation industry.