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India, China should team up for 21st century

fallstuff

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I came across this article on "The Economic Times". I don't know the background of the writer or his leanings. I thought the writer was going to layout his thoughts about Team Work. Seemed like that wasn't the case in the essay. I know forum members can bless this topic with their infinite wisdom.

Hint : A way to do it is by being objective about the topic, staying on the topic, and do so without rattling the hornets nests (I know it is way too much to ask !!! :D )

The article follows in its entirety:



India, China should team up for 21st century
By TK Arun, Sunday, December 20, 2009

India and China are ancient civilisations, neighbours, the two most populous countries of the world, its two fastest-growing economies, friends in global power talks such as over climate change or world trade, rivals when it comes to winning friends and influencing people around the world, conquering export markets and cornering mineral resources. They tried to be bhai-bhai for some time, then fought a war.

There is no burning desire in either capital today for a mutual relationship as between blood brothers, nor is there any hunger to run a blood feud. The sensible course for both countries is to rid their rivalry of overt friction, extend the many areas of cooperation and share the special place in the sun reserved in the 21st century for those who work economic miracles.

The biggest irritant in India-China relations is a border dispute. The dispute is a colonial legacy. The British negotiated an agreement with Tibet in 1914 in an accord at Simla on the border with India and that border, named after the then British foreign secretary McMahon, is what the government of Independent India chose to uphold.

The Chinese never accepted this boundary, saying that Tibet never had the sovereign authority to negotiate a border. The Chinese claim some 150,000 sq km south of the McMahon line as theirs, while India deems this territory as its own.

It is debatable whether it made sense for New Delhi to view a boundary drawn by the former colonial power as the final word on defining the geographical limits of two territories that were new to nationhood but had coexisted for millennia as great civilisations that respected each other.

The Chinese are not prone to respecting other civilisations. For centuries, they considered their Middle Kingdom as the centre of the universe, as the epitome of human achievement. In early 15th century, legendary admiral Zheng led a naval expedition and explored south-east and south Asia and Africa (some claim he discovered Australia and even the Americas).

He reported back to the peacock throne that the rest of the world did not contain anything worth Chinese attention. But the Chinese had respect for India, as the land of the Buddha and as the land from which they procured valuable knowledge, including that of martial arts.

That culture of respect did not survive the colonial experience. The British left, leaving opium-smoking Chinamen and tea-swilling Indians calling each other names from either side of a border dispute, oblivious of the expiry date on the commercial interests that had made the British get the Chinese and Indians hooked to stimulants from across their disputed boundary.

Emancipation from this colonial hangover took time. The Chinese went through their wrenching experience of the Cultural Revolution followed by the restoration of order and a new game of cat and mouse in which the colour of the cat did not matter so long as it caught billions of mice.

India sent AB Vajpayee to Beijing as the foreign minister of the post-Emergency Janata government, and followed it up with a visit by Rajiv Gandhi as prime minister. Since then, the two countries have quarantined their border dispute to a committee of babus from both sides and proceeded to interact like two normal nations in other matters.

Overtly. Covertly, the Chinese tried their best to keep India tied down in a perpetual deadlock with Pakistan, proliferating nuclear technology and missiles to that country, using client state North Korea for the purpose. But India has outgrown that hyphenated relationship, and after the Bush administration went out of its way to get India quasi-membership of the nuclear club and, with it, release from the high-technology denial regime that had crimped the growth of its strategic capacity, is slated to fulfil the aspiration of all countries in south-east Asia and much of the world, of emerging as a strategic balancer of emerging Chinese power.

The world increasingly recognises China as the number two power in the world, after the US. The world, in the process, underestimates Europe, whose woolly incoherence prevents its economic might from translating into proportionate political clout. The world also underestimates Russia and India.

Indians mostly underestimate India vis-a-vis China. India is actually a more efficient economy than China, contrary to all impressions. Indians invest around 36% of their output and generate close to 9% growth (let’s set aside the post-Lehman phase of global crisis). The Chinese cannot invest all of the 55% of their output they save, and get about 10% growth from the 48% they invest. Per unit of capital, India squeezes out more growth than the Chinese do.

In India, capital is not subsidised. So, Indian entrepreneurs, without access to subsidised capital, optimise the use of capital. China is yet to experience this discipline arising out of allocation of capital by the market. Indian democracy sorts out problems as they crop up — if Singur is not sorted out to the satisfaction of the land-losers, nothing can come up on that land, so it will be sorted out, sooner or later.

The Maoist challenge to Indian sovereignty is another occasion to sort out a larger, systemic problem. And it will eventually get sorted out, the political system will adjust to give agency to the rural poor and the system will gather strength, politically and economically.

Absence of democracy makes the Chinese pile up their problems. They could blow up in another Tiananmen. Another factor in India’s favour is that India will reap its demographic dividend at a time when broadband access will be universal, creating the potential for a multiplier effect on the growth process.

But of course, all this depends on India delivering on its tryst with destiny, to end poverty and ignorance and disease and inequality of opportunity, for the people at large. The Indian elephant is hobbled only by its own, self-wrought entanglement in vines. Once it frees itself, it can saunter past the dragon and the fire it breathes. The Chinese have themselves denied their dragon wings, let’s not forget.


Source:India, China should team up for 21st century:Cursor:TK Arun's blog-The Economic Times
 
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The topic of this essay belies the matter.

TK Arun has made his case on how India is growing vis-a-vis China against the perceptions of the mass that thinks China is the way to go. It is less about 'India and China should work together', and more about 'India is not as far behind as you think'.

But the truth remains, India has a different sphere of growth, and it does lack, if not far then up to a great extent, behind China, in every aspect. China is a very strong power that can solely bend a power like the USA to its needs. However, India is still seen as a country engaged in disputes with a much smaller and weaker Pakistan, and relying on countries like the US, Russia and the EU to legitimize its case. India's failures in getting its way done with Pakistan makes India being seen as more of a regional power than a global one.

Also, quoting him here:
Indians mostly underestimate India vis-a-vis China. India is actually a more efficient economy than China, contrary to all impressions. Indians invest around 36% of their output and generate close to 9% growth (let’s set aside the post-Lehman phase of global crisis). The Chinese cannot invest all of the 55% of their output they save, and get about 10% growth from the 48% they invest. Per unit of capital, India squeezes out more growth than the Chinese do.

It is never about how economic the means are, it is always about what is achieved ultimately. For instance, if the Chinese invest their 100% value, and achieve mere 50% growth rate (50% efficiency), and on the other hand if Indians invest their 30% and achieve 30% growth rate (100% efficiency), then the Chinese, although less efficient, will still be way ahead.

Now the scene: China is a manufacturing base, and India a services hub. Chinese mainly cater to the developing market, and Indians, to the developed ones. I see no reason why should China team up with India. Any such efforts by the Chinese will not be as economic, because the cost of efforts (such as going quiet over land disputes and matters relating to Pakistan that will allow India to catch up with China much sooner leading India to threaten its super power status in future) will not be offset by the gains (access to a bigger market, and some more money that will only add to their forex deposits worth trillions already).

Now in what sane mind would China forgo its chance of hegemony only for the sake of a little faster growth?

There is only one answer to this question that comes to my mind - The Chinese are building a really big domestic market, and the rate at which its economy is growing, the boom will not take time to go bust (it will be a painful one, which will be censored to the outside media), and China may be forced to look outwards, which it does not care for as much these days.

Apart from this, I see no reason whatsoever why China should work with India (and not keep it engaged with Pakistan) when everything already looks pretty hunky dory for that nation.
 
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The title topic is about cooperation while the article is about the difference in the growth of both countries. We can analyze and dissect the past as much as we can. But in the end, its the actual growth that counts and that others recognize. A lot of people had projected that China's economy is a bobble and it will go bust. The same thing had being said about US and Japan. Why US kept growing and Japan flunder. The reason its because the Japanese domestic market distribution system is extremely inefficient to ensure that a lot of middle tier enterprises take a cut. Also, it was difficult for new comers to grow in Japan as the government policy was created to protect existing enterprises. The US distribution system is much more efficient and the government policy encourage innovation. The Chinese economic system since 1979 appears to reflect that of the US economy than the Japanese model. Its unlikely that China will encountered a Japanese style stagnation any time soon. China is doing well and will keep growing for a while.
 
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Its unlikely that China will encountered a Japanese style stagnation any time soon. China is doing well and will keep growing for a while.

The article's actual objective is to portray China in a negative fashion. When Indians write any article on China, they write with a tremendous hatred towards the Chinese. They just cannot accept the existence of China.

Anyway, China is too big and versatile to get stagnated like Japan.
 
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The article's actual objective is to portray China in a negative fashion. When Indians write any article on China, they write with a tremendous hatred towards the Chinese. They just cannot accept the existence of China.

Anyway, China is too big and versatile to get stagnated like Japan.

I do read a lot of jealousy by the author against China. It appears that in order for India to grow, it must find a way to cut down China. Many Indian forum members share that view. Its sad and counter productive. People should seek to improve oneself instead of being jealous and start talking crap about others.

Just from reading the mood of Indians and Chinese, I see why the US have no concern that India will ever be a challenge to US hegemony.
 
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I do read a lot of jealousy by the author against China. It appears that in order for India to grow, it must find a way to cut down China. Many Indian forum members share that view. Its sad and counter productive. People should seek to improve oneself instead of being jealous and start talking crap about others.

Just from reading the mood of Indians and Chinese, I see why the US have no concern that India will ever be a challenge to US hegemony.

OK, but the irony is that many Chinese, even the mainland CPC leaders, are delusional. They themselves are not aware of the Indian jealousy and hatred. The recent political developments show that Chinese leaders are impotently pursuing an appeasement policy towards India.

It was first started by the Chinese govt declaration which says Nehru was one who shaped modern China.

Just hilarious. :rofl:

Next exaggeration by the Chinese govt has been about an Indian doctor Kotnis.

The Chinese rulers should know how embarrassing their flattery or sycophancy may appear to the Chinese people who know the history of Sino India relationship.
 
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OK, but the irony is that many Chinese, even the mainland CPC leaders, are delusional. They themselves are not aware of the Indian jealousy and hatred. The recent political developments show that Chinese leaders are impotently pursuing an appeasement policy towards India.

It was first started by the Chinese govt declaration which says Nehru was one who shaped modern China.

Just hilarious. :rofl:

Next exaggeration by the Chinese govt has been about an Indian doctor Kotnis.

The Chinese rulers should know how embarrassing their flattery or sycophancy may appear to the Chinese people who know the history of Sino India relationship.

I would like you to show some instance of such sycophancy, and then your version of the "history of Sino India friendship". Please make sure your version is well substantiated with some reliable references.
 
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I do read a lot of jealousy by the author against China. It appears that in order for India to grow, it must find a way to cut down China. Many Indian forum members share that view. Its sad and counter productive. People should seek to improve oneself instead of being jealous and start talking crap about others.

Just from reading the mood of Indians and Chinese, I see why the US have no concern that India will ever be a challenge to US hegemony.

Could you please show the 'jealousy' in that essay? I tried hard, but could not find any. To me, it appeared mere an effort in showing India in a better light.

It would make your posts worth a read if you really could point out the statements that substantiate your analogy and prove your conclusions. Otherwise, you should let your fingers relax.

Petty reactions such as calling a certain view borne of 'jealousy' has no place in international politics. Grow up.
 
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I would like you to show some instance of such sycophancy, and the your version of the "history of Sino India friendship". Please make sure your version is well substantiated with some reliable references.


Nehru, Tagore among 'foreigners who shaped modern China'

Nehru, Tagore among 'foreigners who shaped modern China'- Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times


Kotnis chosen among top 10 foreign friends of China in past 100 years

Kotnis chosen among top 10 foreign friends of China in past 100 years - China - World - The Times of India



As for the history of Sino Indian relationship. Pliz have a look:

India’s China War by Neville Maxwell

India’s China War by Neville Maxwell




I think the CPC regime of Beijing is gradually losing its validity. A regime change might occur in the near future.
 
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No war to team up China & India.

Many India still have of Dream of Greater India - Tibet should be part of Greater India !
 
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Oh man, they are listed one among a 100!

And it is mainly because Nehru was the first PM of India and led the foreign policy as well, seeking a very cordial relationship with China.

And what do you think Beethoven did for China? Did he also dictate his country's foreign policy with China?

But hang on a sec... one in that list is also Kakuei Tanaka... the most corrupt man in Japan's history... and you are saying the Chinese are showing sycophancy by listing Nehru with him?

And about Kotnis... do you even know what he did? He too has been called just one among a 100 friends.

Next when some Pakistani says Jinnah respected Gandhi, you will think he is being a traitor and a sycophant of India, right?

Man you sure know how to make a mountain out of a mole! No wonder you read such irrelevant and stupid sentiments as jealousy between the lines of that author.
 
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No war to team up China & India.

Many India still have of Dream of Greater India - Tibet should be part of Greater India !

You must know what Indians thinks before you make such statements. Do you got any equipments to read others especially Indian mind and formulate that Indians need Tibet as their new state. Why India need Tibet. What is so special in it. Indians protecting Dalai Lama and his followers doesn't mean that India needs Tibet. May be India wants a Free Tibet but that too is in doubt bcoz India recognized Tibet as part of China so many times.
 
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You must know what Indians thinks before you make such statements. Do you got any equipments to read others especially Indian mind and formulate that Indians need Tibet as their new state. Why India need Tibet. What is so special in it. Indians protecting Dalai Lama and his followers doesn't mean that India needs Tibet. May be India wants a Free Tibet but that too is in doubt bcoz India recognized Tibet as part of China so many times.

Free Tibet, WHY not Free China?

Western Whites only want to split Tibet from China but indifferent to how China will be democratic!



I strongly advise to all Anti-China and Pro-American Japanese, Korean, Indian and East European Dudes - No matter how bad your feeling about China, you should know that Taiwan, Xinjiang and Tibet are histrical and legitimate part of China.

If India, S. Korea, Japan and East European don't like, you should terminate the diplomatic relationship with China first and then establish diplomatic relationship with Taiwan (Republic of China), Tibetan Government-in-exile and any East Turkistan terrorist groups!
That's all
 
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You must know what Indians thinks before you make such statements. Do you got any equipments to read others especially Indian mind and formulate that Indians need Tibet as their new state. Why India need Tibet. What is so special in it. Indians protecting Dalai Lama and his followers doesn't mean that India needs Tibet. May be India wants a Free Tibet but that too is in doubt bcoz India recognized Tibet as part of China so many times.

Their comments on Tibet come from lack of knowledge. They do not even know that Tibet was never a part of India, (why would India want it, and what greater India is there?) and that the Dalai Lama will always be welcomed in India because Buddhism itself started in India.

And man, seriously, you can put such people down, but you can never make them understand, because this problem is more with their psyche, than with their lack of knowledge. They tend to think of countries as certain individuals with mood swings.

How such people think - If America (he is a man, with a big squared jaw and looks like Arnie) is strong, then it can beat up (or even kill) anyone (read: any country).

Similarly, China (a big man with the size of a sumo wrestler) is stronger (note: not more powerful) than India (a weak skinny legged hungry man), then it could beat up India any time it wanted, without incurring any loss to itself.

Such psychology develops when one discounts the factors as trade/diplomacy/defensive (not offensive) capabilities etc.

This is the reason so many in other threads are saying India could swallow down Bangladesh, or that India is eying on Pakistan to take over, as if it were not the 21st century but the feudal era.
 
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Free Tibet, WHY not Free China?

Western Whites only want to split Tibet from China but indifferent to how China will be democratic!



I strongly advise to all Anti-China and Pro-American Japanese, Korean, Indian and East European Dudes - No matter how bad your feeling about China, you should know that Taiwan, Xinjiang and Tibet are histrical and legitimate part of China.

If India, S. Korea, Japan and East European don't like, you should terminate the diplomatic relationship with China first and then establish diplomatic relationship with Taiwan (Republic of China), Tibetan Government-in-exile and any East Turkistan terrorist groups!
That's all

Man, first of all, using such colored big sized fonts online is considered shouting. Calm down, there is no need, we all can read.

About your strong appeal, yes we would all do want to do that most certainly... but there's a small hitch -

- You are not the President or PM of China, and we are not the PM of India/the EU/the USA or whatever.

Sorry man, but your appeal can't be entertained here.:no:
 
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