INDIA: Building a Modern Arsenal in India

[desiman]

Brave heart I deal with procurement mainly in the aviation industry so I wont call myself an expert on Naval side procurement as it is quite different. But ill try to answer from what I know –

1) Yes the rumors are true, India is trying to get her hands on one of the Queen Class AC’s from Britain. The deal is still in its early stages and not much has been done yet. From what I have heard, the defense minister is not very keen on it because of the cost involved and the fact that India is already procuring 3 more AC’s in the coming 5 years. It is a beautiful ship and quite capable but again very expensive and has many string attached to it. Parts and maintenance could also be a nightmare. Maintaining 4 AC’s is not child’s play with the amount of effort that goes into just moving it out of dock. Juts for example it takes over $200000 to move the Vikrant just out of dock into open sea. Now times that by 4 lol lets see what happens.
2) I really don’t know much about Subs and most of the info is highly classified. Sorry I wont be able to help you there.
3) I have some news about the second Akula but again I am not sure and don’t want to give you wrong info.
4) The Indian government approved the purchase of three additional Krivak-III Class frigates on 6 July 2006, at a cost of USD $1.1 billion. The first vessel would be delivered five years after the signing of the contract and the following two ships would be delivered within 12 months (in six-month intervals) after the delivery of the first boat. The new Frigates will be fitted with the BrahMos (PJ-10) anti-ship missile in a vertical eight-cell configuration. India and Russia are negotiating for building additional Krivak-IV frigates for the Indian Navy. I got this from WIKI and its really dead onto what I know lol too lazy to write
5) The number of SU-30MKI is supposed to reach 250-350 by 2015, the order is being placed in a sequential manner by looking at how fast they can be integrated into the air force. As Russia is a very close strategic ally most of these order that build upon existing order are infact quite informal and depend on the authorization of the defence minister. They do not follow the normal pattern. But the status is good and India should have close to 250 MKI by 2015ish.

Sorry buy my knowledge in regards to the navy is limited even when my father was in the Indian Navy at one point lol I will try to learn more from now

 

[desiman]

Planned Acquisitions Of The Indian Navy
The Navy is purchasing from Russia the Kiev class aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov (INS Vikramaditya), which will be delivered to India by 2012.
The Indian Navy is also negotiating with Russia for the acquisition of further Advanced Talwar class frigates, and six conventional submarines.
India started a program in 1985 to develop indigenous technologies for building a nuclear-powered submarine, known as the Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) project .The first Advanced Technology Vessel is called INS Arihant, was launched on July 26, 2009.The hull for the vessel has been built by Larsen & Toubro at its A naval version of a nuclear reactor has been developed at the Indira Gandhi Centre For Atomic Research, Kalpakkam and will be deployed on the submarine's hull after miniaturization. The Prototype Testing Centre (PTC) will be used to test the submarine's turbines and propellers. A similar facility is operational at Vishakapatnam to test the main turbines and gear box.
Once the vessel is completed, it may be equipped with K-15 as well as Sagarika/Agni-III ballistic missiles and advanced Indian made sonar systems. According to defense sources, the ATV is expected to be commissioned in 2010. Each unit will cost one billion U.S. dollars. Government has given approval for constructing the follow on SSBN's which will be larger than the Arihant class submarines. Approval has also been given for the construction of SSN's which will escort the SSBN's
India is reportedly paying two billion dollars for the completion of two Akula-II class submarines which were 40-60% completed.Three hundred Indian Navy personnel are being trained in Russia for the operation of these submarines. India has finalized a deal with Russia, in which at the end of the lease of these submarines, it has an option to buy them. According to report, the first submarine will be commissioned into the Indian Navy in September, 2009.The first submarine will be named INS Chakra, it is currently undergoing trials in the Pacific ocean.

hope this helps

 

[desiman]

The Indian government approved the purchase of three additional Krivak-III Class frigates on 6 July 2006, at a cost of USD $1.1 billion. The first vessel would be delivered five years after the signing of the contract and the following two ships would be delivered within 12 months (in six-month intervals) after the delivery of the first boat. The new Frigates will be fitted with the BrahMos (PJ-10) anti-ship missile in a vertical eight-cell configuration.
India and Russia are negotiating for building additional Krivak-IV frigates for the Indian Navy

 

[desiman]

Indian Navy Aircraft Under Development and Future Aircraft
HAL Tejas:The naval variant of the Tejas will have strengthened landing gear and other necessary modifications for service on an aircraft carrier. Two Naval prototypes will be built, the NP-1 (Naval Prototype-1) which will be a two seat variant and NP-2 (Naval Prototype-2), a single seat variant for carrier operations. The Tejas is expected to be delivered before 2012.the first flight of NP-1 is expected to take place by the end of 2008 but the carrier trials was delayed due to the delay in the delivery schedule of INS Vikramaditya. Hence the trials will have to be carried out at the SBTF (Shore-based Test Facility) under construction at the naval airbase INS Hansa in Goa. Indian Navy plans to operate two squadrons (40 aircraft) of carrier borne Tejas aircraft from the two aircraft carries.
Indian navy has placed an order for six Naval LCAs. At an approximate cost of Rs 150 crore per aircraft, that will provide a Rs 900 crore infusion into the Naval LCA programme.
• Additional Fighter Aircraft:Indian Navy has issued RFI to various fighter aircraft manufacturers including Boeing for F-18 Super Hornet & Dassault for its Rafale fighters.These aircraft will be used for supplements to MIG29K's operating from Indigenous & Vikramaditya class aircraft carriers.These are ordered in order to reduce the delays in the procurement of fighter aircraft. Unknown number of fighters will be procured.
• Long Range Maritime Patrol Aircraft: The Indian Navy issued an RFP for eight maritime patrol aircraft. The plan is to induct up to thirty new maritime patrol aircraft by 2020. Out of all the bidders the P-8I Poseidon has won the contract.New Delhi and Boeing have inked a lucrative, $2.1 billion contract for the delivery of eight P-8 Poseidon sub hunters.The new aircraft will replace a fleet of outdated Russian-manufactured Tupolev-142M planes.
• Medium-Range Maritime Reconnaissance Aircraft: The Indian Navy issued an RFP for six medium-range maritime reconnaissance (MRMR) aircraft. Contenders are ATR-72MP/ ATR-42MP, EADS C-295MPA/C-235MPA, Dassault's Falcon 900MPA and Embraer P-99A platforms.
• Airavat (formerly ASP)
• 17 Hawk Trainer
• HAL HJT-3
• 20 ASW Helicopters (to replace Sea King) Extended to 60 helos
• 15 NAL Saras aircraft have been ordered, mostly to replace the Dornier Do-228.
• 40 Unmanned helicopters . This helicopter is under development and will be based on the HAL-built Cheetah helicopters.
• Rustom UAV

 

[AnGrz_Z_K_Jailer]

Desi Bro! what about P8 deal? I come to know MOD cancel the order? is that true?

 

[Hulk]

Ya i hope its the F-18 because im not a very big fan of the Rafale and typhoon, both for the same reasons.
1) both are too expensive and do not justify their cost
2) Are not battle proven yet unlike the F-18 which is a proven platform
3) Rafale and typhoon have failed to find any big customers. I know the Saudi has some Typhoon's if i am not wrong but other than that there are not major non-European customers.
4)India needs to get their hands on some western tech as that will help us progress faster and diversify out forces which have been mainly Russian and French till now.

f-18 is also reasonably priced to what it bring to the table. All parts suppliers have also agreed to set up production facilities in India which would be a big boom for us. Let hope for the best.

I am also getting a strong feeling that Boeing is getting closer to India day by day. P8 deal and others and at the same time they have manufacturing started in India so easier for them to expand.

It fits the bill and we should forget about worrying for sanctions, to mitigate always have extra spare parts in hand.

The only reason we should go for Rafale and Typhoon is because of TOT.

 

[TheBraveHeart]

Well thanks for ur efforts desidog!!
No probs...with navy procurement thing, u already hv given more info. than what I expected...

Initially I had an inclination that all defence related procurements go through a single channel and so the delays, but ur post clears that doubt and in a way makes me feel happy that we have dedicated people for specific jobs which results in more efficiency!!


thanks...

 

[desiman]

Desi Bro! what about P8 deal? I come to know MOD cancel the order? is that true?

LOL no way bro the deal is perfectly fine and is slated for completion in 2012. Infact from what I have heard the order might be increased depending on the approval of the US congress. One of the guys I know in MOD told me that the Naval chief is so impressed with the P8 that he has requested for atleast 2 more from the MOD. A decision will be made by the time the budget is realized for the next year. Im sure the order will be increased, they really give India the edge.

 

[desiman]

Well thanks for ur efforts desidog!!
No probs...with navy procurement thing, u already hv given more info. than what I expected...

Initially I had an inclination that all defence related procurements go through a single channel and so the delays, but ur post clears that doubt and in a way makes me feel happy that we have dedicated people for specific jobs which results in more efficiency!!


thanks...

Ohh procurement is huge department at the MOD with people placed all over the world. I personally know 3-4 people from MOD here in Canada that work out the deals for India with Canadian companies. It is very complex and often secretive department. Often accused of taking bribes and money laundering but infact its one of the most efficient and hard working department and the main reason why India even with so many thing holding it back have managed to have pretty advanced armed forces. Yes they do screw up sometimes but most of the time they are dead on. Delays in domestic development such as these often criticized LCA is due to internal issues and not a procurement one. There are many sub divisions in the departments that take care of specific procurement. One deal can require the co-ordination of all of them which can be a logistical nightmare so please cut them some slack lol they are actually pretty nice guys and some girls also

 

[desiman]

Procedure to Boost Indigenous Research Development and Production Facilities

The resurgence in Indian industry today offers scope for their greater involvement in the Defence sector, due to availability of requisite skills and infrastructure for undertaking defence production and even research and development in some fields. Private Sector can today harness available expertise of management, scientific and technological skills and also raise resources for investment in research and development. One area that had not been addressed so far was a procedure for acquisition of defence equipment developed based on indigenous research. The 'Make' procedure bridges a critical gap that existed in our procurement procedure and paves the way for increased participation of Indian Industries in defence sector and attaining the goal of self reliance in defence production.

The objective of the 'Make' procedure is to ensure Indigenous Research, Design, Development and Production of capabilities sought by the Armed Forces in prescribed timeframe while optimally utilising the potential of Indian Industry. These activities would be undertaken by Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), Defence Public Sector Undertakings (DPSUs) and licensed Indian Industry and industries identified as Raksha Udyog Ratna (RUR) / Consortia on a level playing field on shared development cost.

Multi Disciplinary Integrated Project Management Teams (IPMTs) would be nominated for each project which would make a detailed assessment of the responses received from the developing agencies. This would include an assessment of the manufacturing and design capability of all the industries/Consortia who are interested in participating in the programme. The contribution of the Indian industry in the critical technology areas would be the key criterion in assessment of various proposals. In case of projects which are funded by MoD, the Intellectual Property Rights would belong to the MoD.

Minimum of two production agencies would be short listed. An essential requirement for short listing of development agency / agencies is identification of firms with proven excellence with capability to contribute due to their technical, managerial and financial strengths.

In case where the system configuration is complex, development lead time is relatively long, technological risks are substantial, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) would approve the sharing for the development cost with the developing agency / agencies. The IPMT would identify important milestones during the development of prototypes. Funds would be released as per schedule of release of payments linked to achievement of milestones. In case the project does not proceed according to the predetermined milestones and there are time and cost overruns the project may be foreclosed as per pre determined exit criteria.

The two agencies selected would under take the design and development of prototype. The prototype would be subjected to technical and field trials to assess the overall performance of the systems. The testing may require specialized facilities like conduct of proof firing and extensive firing trials for weapon systems. Such facilities, specifically required for military applications, are national resources, and are mostly available at selected centres of DRDO and Directorate General of Quality Assurance which would be made available to the development agency. The developed prototype should have minimum 30 per cent indigenous content.

If both the developing agencies successfully develop the prototype the contract for minimum order quantity would be awarded to the lowest bidder.

 

[DeathGod]

are actually pretty nice guys and some girls also

@desiKutta

Though offtopic , do these girls wear black suits and shades, are they trained to kick sum butt ? Are all of them committed, sadly which is the case with most good girls and last Care To Pass Their Phone number Pleaj Elaborate

Thanks for all the informative posts . Keep up the good work sir.

 

[desiman]

@desiKutta

Though offtopic , do these girls wear black suits and shades, are they trained to kick sum butt ? Are all of them committed, sadly which is the case with most good girls and last Care To Pass Their Phone number Pleaj Elaborate

Thanks for all the informative posts . Keep up the good work sir.

lol im not sure they are they type of girls that you would want to take numbers from lol mostly in the late 30ish or early 50's really. But recently there has been a wave of young girls from engineering and supply chain management side. They are nice but not easy to get hold off when you have 1 girl for 50 men in one department lol but regardless of age all the women i have seen in the department are very well dressed and quite qualified lol and they are not that bad looking and they give their numbers pretty fast also because most of them spend half of the time outside the country lol

 

[ambidex]

LOL no way bro the deal is perfectly fine and is slated for completion in 2012. Infact from what I have heard the order might be increased depending on the approval of the US congress. One of the guys I know in MOD told me that the Naval chief is so impressed with the P8 that he has requested for atleast 2 more from the MOD. A decision will be made by the time the budget is realized for the next year. Im sure the order will be increased, they really give India the edge.

There are all the reasons for navy chief to demand more p8 we have clusters and clusters of subs from both sides to out scout and outplay.

 

[desiman]

There are all the reasons for navy chief to demand more p8 we have clusters and clusters of subs from both sides to out scout and outplay.

lol for sure but im sure we are totally capable of handling them

 

[desiman]

Ministry of Defence

The Government of India is responsible for ensuring the defence of India and every part thereof. The Supreme Command of the Armed Forces vests in the President. The responsibility for national defence rests with the Cabinet. This is discharged through the Ministry of Defence, which provides the policy framework and wherewithal to the Armed Forces to discharge their responsibilities in the context of the defence of the country. The Raksha Mantri (Defence Minister) is the head of the Ministry of Defence. The principal task of the Defence Ministry is to obtain policy directions of the Government on all defence and security related matters and communicate them for implementation to the Services Headquarters, Inter-Services Organisations, Production Establishments and Research and Development Organisations. It is also required to ensure effective implementation of the Government's policy directions and the execution of approved programmes within the allocated resources. Ministry of Defence comprises of four Departments viz. Department of Defence (DOD), Department of Defence Production (DDP), Department of Defence Research & Development (DDR&D) and Department of Ex-Servicemen Welfare and also Finance Division

Historical Background

A Military Department was created in the Supreme Government of the East India Company at Kolkata into the year 1776, having the main function to sift and record orders relating to the Army issued by various Departments of the Govt of East India Co. The Military Department initially functioned as a branch of the Public Department and maintained a list of Army personnel.

With the Charter Act of 1833 the Secretariat of the Government of East India Company was reorganised into four Departments, including a Military Department, each headed by a Secretary to the Government. The Army in the Presidencies of Bengal, Bombay & Madras functioned as respective Presidency Army till April 1895, when the Presidency Armies were unified into a single Indian Army. For administrative convenience, it was divided into four Commands viz. Punjab (including the North West Frontier), Bengal, Madras (including Burma) and Bombay (including Sind, Quetta and Aden).

The supreme authority over the Indian Army vested in the Governor General-in-Council, subject to the Control of the Crown, which was exercised by the Secretary of State for India. Two Members in the Council were responsible for military affairs, one of whom was the Military Member, who supervised all administrative and financial matters, while the other was the Commander-in-Chief who was responsible for all operational matters. The Military Department was abolished in March 1906 and it was replaced by two separate Departments, the Army Department and the Military Supply Department. In April 1909 the Military Supply Department was abolished and its functions were taken over by the Army Department. The Army Department was redesignated as the Defence Department in January 1938. The Department of Defence became the Ministry of Defence under a Cabinet Minister in August 1947.


Organisational Set-Up And Functions

After independence Ministry of Defence was created under the charge of a Cabinet Minister, and, each Service was placed under its own Commander-in-Chief. In 1955, the Commanders-in-Chief were renamed as the Chief of the Army Staff, the Chief of the Naval Staff and the Chief of the Air Staff. In November 1962, a Department of Defence Production was set up to deal with research, development and production of defence equipment. In November 1965, the Department of Defence Supplies was created for planning and execution of schemes for import substitution of defence requirements. These two Departments were later merged to form the Department of Defence Production and Supplies. * In 2004, the name of Department of Defence Production and Supplies was changed to Department of Defence Production. In 1980, the Department of Defence Research and Development was created. In 2004, the Department of Ex-Servicemen Welfare was created..

The Defence Secretary functions as head of the Department of Defence and is additionally responsible for co-ordinating the activities of the four Departments in the Ministry.

Departments

The principal task of the Ministry is to frame policy directions on defence and security related matters and communicate them for implementation to the Services Headquarters, Inter-Service Organisations, Production Establishments and Research & Development Organisations. It is required to ensure effective implementation of the Government's policy directions and the execution of approved programmes within the allocated resources.

The principal functions of all the Departments are as follows:

(i) The Department of Defence deals with the Integrated Defence Staff (IDS) and three Services and various Inter-Service Organisations. It is also responsible for the Defence Budget, establishment matters, defence policy, matters relating to Parliament, defence co-operation with foreign countries and co-ordination of all defence related activities.

(ii) The Department of Defence Production The Department of Defence Production is headed by a Secretary and deals with matters pertaining to defence production, indigenisation of imported stores, equipment and spares, planning and control of departmental production units of the Ordnance Factory Board and Defence Public Sector Undertakings (DPSUs).

(iii) The Department of Defence Research The Department of Defence Research and Development is headed by a Secretary, who is the Scientific Adviser to the Raksha Mantri. Its function is to advise the Government on scientific aspects of military equipment and logistics and the formulation of research, design and development plans for equipment required by the Services.

(iv) The Department of Ex-Servicemen Welfare is headed by a Secretary and deals with all resettlement, welfare and pensionary matters of Ex-Servicemen.