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India: A Failed State and Sham Secular Democracy

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both are failed state in some areas of their respective

and are prosperous in some other areas

hence build what we lack in and build more were we are better

hope both pakistan and india become superpower
 
Regarding secularism, here's how Kapil Komireddy demolishes the myth of Indian secularism in a piece he wrote for the Guardian newspaper:

Do you actually want to quote Kapil Komireddy to prove that it is actually India and not Pakistan which is failing? You do know that he is the same guy who also wrote this piece.

The demise of Pakistan is inevitable
 
I'm always willing to listen to opinions from smart minds but your premise is always India bashing and selective amnesia. If you had argued that Pakistan is not a failed state by quoting him I would listened earnestly at your arguments and opinions, in fact by twisting words you wanted to portray India has a failed state!!! Again, if you were not blind founded with hate you could have come out with a comprehensive definition of a "Failed State" and then squeezed India in there or even quoted some experts in the field that called India a failed state, while I'm sure you couldn't find quotes from experts calling India a failed state why didn't you just write about why Pakistan is not a failed state?

Writings can be opinionated, amateurish, hate filled, this one takes the cake for being all at once. Why don't you consider re-writing this and focus entirely on Pakistan?

Summary for people who didn't watch the video, the expert never calls India a failed state.
 
I don't mind the article if it helps pakistanis feel good. Although not many pakistanis have access to riaz's talented work. I think he should go mainstream writing columns. Such writing might actually reduce tention between the two countries.
 
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See, this is the problem with us Pakistanis. We get carried away very easily. India is the farthest thing from a failed state, it is a booming country with a bright future. However, simply because many Indians fantasize about a failed Pakistan, we feel like we must return the favor.

As for democracy, there are no perfect democracies in the World. Their electoral process is certainly much better than ours because all the power doesn't rest with feudal lords. Other than that, they have their fair share of problems with corruption, leadership etc., but which developing country doesn't?

If you want to criticize India, do it for the valid reasons. We shouldn't try to invent ideas against India simply because some of them do the same with us. Let's show some class.

But, at least now the Indian members know what it feels like to be called a "failed state" without proof.

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Great video. The man raises many good points. However, this only speaks about the duality of Western media, doesn't point out that India is a "failed state".
 
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India is not even close to being a " failed state" & neither is Pakistan.In the whole speech of William Dalrymple there was a stress on some of the fundamental problems faced by Pakistan.I cannot sense a reason how its connected to the thread title. Infact the truth is world & especially India cannot afford Pakistan or any of its neighbor to be a "failed state"(though I find the term a misnomer; unstable would be better).Its in the supreme interest of India to have a stable,prosperous,democratic Pakistan as well as whole of S.Asia.(else its consequences & ramifications).
Though one major difference which Dalrymple missed, which I may quote, is the threat perception in the two countries.Reasons can/cannot be justified on various grounds.It has led to fissiparous tendencies which has thereby reinforced the inflated the threat perception.
 
India is not even close to being a " failed state" & neither is Pakistan.In the whole speech of William Dalrymple there was a stress on some of the fundamental problems faced by Pakistan.I cannot sense a reason how its connected to the thread title. Infact the truth is world & especially India cannot afford .

Neither India nor Pakistan are failed states. Not even remotely close. India's economy is growing at a healthy clip and Pakistan is a country where industries such as software export are growing at 50% YoY, defence exports are on the rise, large scale, multi billion dollar refinery, power generation and infrastructure projects are being implemented as we speak. If this is a failed state, then perhaps we need to worry about Italy, the UK, Germany and the US too.

Putting things in context, the terms "failed state" and "most dangerous country" were used for Pakistan by lobbies in the west purely as a means to apply pressure on is in context of our post-9/11Afghan policy. Any sane-minded individual with an IQ over 80 would fully understand that in no point in history has Pakistan ever even remotely approached being "the most dangerous country".

I can guarantee you that fair skinned westerners are safer in say, Dadu, Thatta or Bahawalpur, than brown skinned Asians are in the backwoods of Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, South Carolina etc.

This mudslinging pressure tactic has not really played out very well since Pakistan -and particularly the PA under Gen. Kiyani - has pursued a completely independent strategy as far as the conduct of operations within Pakistan and in Afghanistan concerned.

Prof. Panarin of Russia predicted that America's demise was inevitable and that America was essentially a failed state. If Russia controlled the media in the way America does today, all of us would have seen so many news and discussion programs on this topic and analyses of/elaborations on Panarin's hypothesis that we would all be convinced that indeed America's demise was imminent.

This is the power of the media... but one that must be resisted if reason is to prevail. South Asians in general should resist the temptation of succumbing to the "Pakistan/India is a failed state" nonsense.
 
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one day i know one day i will come on this forum and people will be talking about how to bring people together .. not to separate .. i know one day !!!!
p.s
i just wish every indian and pakistani get a one chance to come out of there country and spend some time in the world out side there circle to see what actually happens in the world , and see a real eye opener rather then ''youtube'' eye openers !
 
pakistan will become super power and so will india and then we can have healthy fight lol-----ok just kidding

both india and pakistan cannot be failed state

and pakistan surely not
reason is simple we are south asians(known for struggle)

more u pushes us more we will come up
 
Guys...I got banned because of Haq musing article!!

Anyways....The topic says India is a failed state and sham secular democracy..

(1) I would like to know on what parameter India is a failed state...
Economic --> second fastest growing
Cultural --> One of the strongest one
Military --> No need to say anything. We are already "accused" of massive arms/military buildup. :D
Diplomatic/Int'l relations --> India has very good relations from every country on globe except few.

Add some more parameter and we could see as well.

(2) I would also love to know how India is a sham democracy.
One point is reaised about insurgencies. People are probably referring to Naxalite and Maoist ones. Well all I could say they do not anything know about these movements. They are more of establishing communist regime rather than demanding separate state. As I said people do know a sh!t about India. As JnK is concerned, there is very small population and that too is decreasing day by day. For armed movements, lesser said the better. This could be a yearlong thread.

Another point that could be raised is riots. We Indians agree they are blot on India and everybody condemn it. But to generalise everything is certainly not good. Rest all is just ho-ha.

But I like the article for one reason. It gives a immense pleasure that somewhere something is burning. ;)
 
Well, if India is a ' failed state & a sham democracy" as the title suggests, I'd like to see a failed state where :

1. The constitution & constitutional authority has not been impinged by coups, abrogations. The original frame work of the constitution remains & is amended from time to time based on needs.

2. The institutions of a state - Legislature, Judiciary & the executive function within their norms.

3. The armed forces do their job.

4. Five year plans are made & implemented / followed . Slippages are followed up on.

5. Financial discipline is ensured by National & state budgets.

6. The ' failed' nation exists in its ' original' form since independence.

As being a ' sham' democracy..

1. Wonder how many sham democracies exist in the world where govts are changed by the ballot & not the bullet.

2. ..ah the list is too long to go over.

All in all, if this is what failed states & sham democracies are - we are happy to be called one.
 
The video is not mentioning anything that India is a failed state. However the guy is criticizing Pakistan with more clever words like we say in Punjabi ''piyo piyo ke jutiyan marna'' to beat with wet shoes so that it doesn't make sound.
The person who named this thread so is suffering from serious inferiority complex from India.

No Indian says that India is a perfect democracy, I even wont mind if someone says we are a failed state cause I know what we are honestly.

1. we are not able to give justice to 1984 riots victims.
2. we are not able to provide justice in time.
3. Our bureaucracy is still corrupt.
4. Our health system is over loaded and crippling.
5. Poverty is still not improving in faster speed.
6. Still many fundamentalist politico-religious regimes are sparking every where.
7. We are world's biggest casual work force with almost no rights, under paid and with no working labour reforms in place.
8. We have no idea what occupational health and saftey and skilled work force is all about.
9. Police acts like a group of organized criminals and slaves of ruling Political parties.
10. Our national security is in the hand of God and chance, In last 10 years we have suffered from more then 3000 terrorist attacks, any tom dick and harry can cross our borders live illegally or raise the hell like they did in mumbai.
11. Our cities are now over populated and we have no contingencies plan what so ever in place for would be population crisis.

Members can refer to many other India bashing threads staring from toilets to poverty for further reference.

We both Pakistani and Indians do not criticize our self. That cunt Guy in video is more reliable for us to certify whether we are a failed state or not.
Trust me even if we will become better then these so called developed nations they will find another excuse to bash us bluntly. The China bashing during Olympics by west was a typical example of this.
 
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Begging with Dignity

by Just for Pakistan on October 2, 2009

By Rafia Zakaria

In our sixty-second year, perhaps it’s time we came to terms with the reality that we are and have always been a nation of beggars. Ironically, it is only in embracing this grim reality that we can find the opportunity to change our future

If the recent summit in New York is a reliable gauge, then Pakistan, or rather “democratic” Pakistan is doing pretty well in the popularity contest otherwise known as the General Session of the United Nations General Assembly.
On Thursday, the “Friends of Democratic Pakistan” met to discuss the promotion of stable governance and economic development in Pakistan. The group includes Australia, Britain, Canada, China, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates, the United States, the United Nations and European Union. President Obama, who co-chaired the meeting, announced the passage of the Kerry-Lugar Bill, which will provide Pakistan with $1.5 billion every year for the next five years.
The meeting and accompanying announcement of aid disbursement have provided much fodder for discussion in both the United States and Pakistan. The United States has expectedly tried to announce passage of the Kerry-Lugar Bill as well as the meeting itself as a major commitment that substantiates its long-term interest in Pakistan. Coming as it does, in the footsteps of an expected change in US policy toward the region, the announcements provide the Obama administration a means to deflect attention from its woes in Afghanistan by pointing to the potential of success in Pakistan.
For the Pakistani government, led by President Zardari, the task in New York is markedly more difficult. It must tread the delicate balance of being both gracious for the assistance while at the same time drawing attention to the holes in the Obama administration’s beneficence. One attempt to do just this was President Zardari’s demand, made a day before the meeting, that the United States reimburse the $1.6 million that Pakistan has spent fighting the War on Terror in the tribal belt. The demand was programmed ostensibly to emphasise the fact that aid disbursements to Pakistan are in exchange for services rendered in the US-led war against Al Qaeda rather than an act of magnanimity by the United States. In other words, the Pakistani delegation tried to paint as “payment” what the Americans would present simply as an act of generosity.
This delicate dance between grantors and receivers of aid is not in itself new. In the last few decades, as globalisation has become an economic and security challenge rather than an abstract theory, this dynamic has become a repeated accompaniment to most global summits. The rich nations controlling large chunks of the world economy have packaged their security interests as moralistic efforts to assist the poor without any strings attached. At the same time, poorer nations have sought to expose the security interests and consequent challenges to sovereignty that lie beneath the Global North’s commitments to economic and social development in the Global South.
The duelling narratives that emerge from the above dynamic mean that rich nations always have the task of presenting their aid as magnanimous while poorer ones always have an interest in presenting the aid amounts as emerging out of rich countries’ self-serving security interests.
In the current case, the challenge for the Pakistani government becomes more complex in light of ideological currents at home that present this dynamic as an inherent attack on the country’s sovereignty. Conservative commentators, especially those belonging to Islamist parties, present the need for aid as a failure by the current administration to safeguard the sovereignty of the nation. In doing so they disregard both the facts of Pakistan’s precarious economic existence in a world beset by financial crises but also the fact that whether we like it or not, the world market is controlled by countries like the United States.
In fomenting this attitude towards aid in general, these critics present the acceptance of aid as a choice rather than the necessity it has been for many governments past and present. Gullible Pakistanis are thus fed the myth that it is a particular government’s greed rather than the nation’s need that makes aid a requirement, and that the only thing keeping Pakistan from true self-sufficiency is the corruption of one or another administration.
The fact is that the acceptance or rejection of aid by Pakistan is not a facet peculiar to the Zardari administration. Governments past, present and future have been and are likely to remain tied to the disbursement of foreign assistance for many decades in the future. The scale of current security challenges and the inability of our weak state to respond to a growing insurgency necessitates that we accept any help that we get. The particular ravages of the global financial crisis on our economy and the mounting costs of a civil war that has led us to become a world leader in suicide bombings are recent precipitators of our hapless condition.
Idealistic notions of self-sufficiency that suggest that we deny how integral foreign assistance has been to our precarious existence these past sixty odd years indicate a blindness to both our local challenges and the place we hold in the international sphere. Pakistan is not and has never been a superpower, militarily, morally or economically. We do not have the infrastructure to create self-sufficiency in either our agricultural, industrial or manufacturing sectors. We do not have the natural resources to provide for all our energy needs or the capabilities to sell what we do have on the global market. Yet, instead of accepting these challenges and their consequent impact on our place in the world, we live imbued in nationalist myths and pretend that our current reliance on aid is solely a product of temporary mistakes or greedy politicians.
A novel argument for us as we poke fun at the unfortunate officials charged with the task of begging for this aid in New York would be to consider not the hokey notions of becoming the next global powerhouse fuelled by our un-availed (and largely imaginary) natural resources but rather a realistic assessment of what our capabilities and challenges really are. Not once in our sixty-two year existence have we survived without the assistance of foreign governments.
In our sixty-second year, perhaps it’s time we came to terms with the reality that we are and have always been a nation of beggars. Ironically, it is only in embracing this grim reality that we can find the opportunity to change our future.

Rafia Zakaria is an attorney living in the United States where she teaches courses on Constitutional Law and Political Philosophy. She can be contacted at rafia.zakaria@gmail.com
 
@ambidex

Fair self-reflection overall. All third-world countries from where we came are "failed" states in one way or another. Otherwise many of us would't be in the West to begin with. Pointing fingers at each other doesn't solve much.

Working constructively will hopefully bring results.
 
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