‘In two years, we have a field gun ready; it costs $2 million’

[Robinhood Pandey]

Not Bofors. It is the GC-45 design, the same one which Denel procured in order to develop its product line of howitzers which were on offer to India, the same design in fact was procured by the PRC and served as the blueprint for their artillery program (there are others on the list too). Kalyani has done the same thing and then gone on to upgrade the caliber, everything from the all important metallurgy for the barrel to the raw material is Indian. Basically Bharat Forge has purchased Noricum and brought the entire manufacturing workshop to India. Ergo its as Indian as it is going to get, not to mention that not a single nut of it will be outsourced.

Damn ! i'm confused between Dhanush and this gun now. . .

Dhanush is with 155mm/ 45 cal barrel and this one is with 155mm/52 cal ??

 

[Dillinger]

Damn ! i'm confused between Dhanush and this gun now. . .

Dhanush is with 155mm/ 45 cal barrel and this one is with 155mm/52 cal ??

The OFB Dhanush is derived from the original Bofors gun, it has been up-gunned to 45 cal and quite a few design changes have been carried out in house.

The Bharat-52 is the Bharat Forge gun which is based on the GC/GHN-45 design (which was also bought and copied by Israel, Singapore, SA, PRC and their indigenous guns were mostly bolt to bolt copies which were later used for their respective tracked/wheeled SPG projects). The original design was a 45 cal and was independently upgraded to 52 cal by various client countries. In fact in the original artillery trials the GHN had impressed the IA as much if not more than the Bofors. Bharat Forge's offering has similarly been upgunned to 52 cal ergo the designation "Bharat-52".

Kalyani did what the GOI should have done 30 years ago. When China bought the design and copied it to produce the PLL01, the same gun which would be placed on a tracked chassis to develop the PLZ-45, India actually had a higher per capita income than the PRC. Goes to show how others have progressed ahead by virtue of having a long term strategic vision while we deal with some sort of a congenital defect which renders us retarded in such matters.

 

[Robinhood Pandey]

The OFB Dhanush is derived from the original Bofors gun, it has been up-gunned to 45 cal and quite a few design changes have been carried out in house.

The Bharat-52 is the Bharat Forge gun which is based on the GC/GHN-45 design (which was also bought and copied by Israel, Singapore, SA, PRC and their indigenous guns were mostly bolt to bolt copies which were later used for their respective tracked/wheeled SPG projects). The original design was a 45 cal and was independently upgraded to 52 cal by various client countries. In fact in the original artillery trials the GHN had impressed the IA as much if not more than the Bofors. Bharat Forge's offering has similarly been upgunned to 52 cal ergo the designation "Bharat-52".

Kalyani did what the GOI should have done 30 years ago. When China bought the design and copied it to produce the PLL01, the same gun which would be placed on a tracked chassis to develop the PLZ-45, India actually had a higher per capita income than the PRC. Goes to show how others have progressed ahead by virtue of having a long term strategic vision while we deal with some sort of a congenital defect which renders us retarded in such matters.

thanks for the info

 

[Dillinger]

@chak de INDIA The real irony is that almost every other foreign gun on offer to us is also a copy of the GHN. Although its not surprising, the gun is extremely well designed given that its original designer Gerald Bull was a bonafide genius, a genius who's genius got him assassinated (by either the Israelis or the Iranians, one of the rare few folks who was on the hit list of those two otherwise antagonistic and mutually contrary nations).

 

[Robinhood Pandey]

The real irony is that almost every other foreign gun on offer to us is also a copy of the GHN

brand value bhi koi cheez hoti hai, kaka

 

[Dillinger]

brand value bhi koi cheez hoti hai, kaka

Although the country which has put the GHN design to best use is SA. Denel did some wonderful things with it. Things we could do too given the impetus and foresight.

The one thing the world can learn from us is that how does one squander a splendid opportunity and end up with a BIG zero. Contrary to popular belief the OFB didn't exactly sit on the Bofors design, they did try some in house stuff. BUT the MoD happily sat pretty and never allocated either funds or initiated a project for utilizing the said design. Take the case of the amazing Type-209 subs to which the MoD actually owns the IPR but still it decided to cap production at 4, had they had a single brain cell to rub between all the babus and lotas we would have a fleet of them today waiting to go to a reputed OEM like Kockums for an AIP upgrade. The result would have been the most formidable conventional under-sea force in the IOR. BUT akal jo ghas charne gai hui hai hamari.

 

[Robinhood Pandey]

Although the country which has put the GHN design to best use is SA. Denel did some wonderful things with it. Things we could do too given the impetus and foresight.

The one thing the world can learn from us is that how does one squander a splendid opportunity and end up with a BIG zero. Contrary to popular belief the OFB didn't exactly sit on the Bofors design, they did try some in house stuff. BUT the MoD happily sat pretty and never allocated either funds or initiated a project for utilizing the said design. Take the case of the amazing Type-209 subs to which the MoD actually owns the IPR but still it decided to cap production at 4, had they had a single brain cell to rub between all the babus and lotas we would have a fleet of them today waiting to go to a reputed OEM like Kockums for an AIP upgrade. The result would have been the most formidable conventional under-sea force in the IOR. BUT akal jo ghas charne gai hui hai hamari.

Sometimes i feel like beating these scumbags/babus/defence ministry guys till mash

 

[Dillinger]

Sometimes i feel like beating these scumbags/babus/defence ministry guys till mash

Why blame them? Its a congenital thing, as in its a subcontinental trait. In fact even as we speak me and Hype are working on a plan to fix it with Oscar's help.

The MoD showcased its idiocy even with the Scorpene project, happily the first 2 subs could have been built in France giving the Indian companies time to absorb the tech in a staggered and proper manner, after that the subs built in house would not have suffered from teething issues due to QC/QR related problems of components being built locally for the first time (which is the reason for the delay in the project, contrary to popular opinion the hull fabrication itself has been largely on schedule). The scheme of letting the OEM build the first two while we absorb the tech was a proper success back in the 209 days but risk na le to mazaa kaise aye. Although if someone would strangle AK sahib with his lungi I might just put on one myself and do a lungi dance.

You see, were you to pick up our history in this regard then you would find such astonishing examples of pure A-grade skulduggery that you might just weep your way to your own demise.

 

[Robinhood Pandey]

Why blame them? Its a congenital thing, as in its a subcontinental trait. In fact even as we speak me and Hype are working on a plan to fix it with Oscar's help.

The MoD showcased its idiocy even with the Scorpene project, happily the first 2 subs could have been built in France giving the Indian companies time to absorb the tech in a staggered and proper manner, after that the subs built in house would not have suffered from teething issues due to QC/QR related problems of components being built locally for the first time (which is the reason for the delay in the project, contrary to popular opinion the hull fabrication itself has been largely on schedule). The scheme of letting the OEM build the first two while we absorb the tech was a proper success back in the 209 days but risk na le to mazaa kaise aye. Although if someone would strangle AK sahib with his lungi I might just put on one myself and do a lungi dance.

You see, were you to pick up our history in this regard then you would find such astonishing examples of pure A-grade skulduggery that you might just weep your way to your own demise.

i once asked CO of my father's unit about not inducting the Arjun ( it was an Armoured regiment ) and the response was a fake smile and a mild warning to not to discuss these things at a public gathering

 

[ExtraOdinary]

@chak de INDIA The real irony is that almost every other foreign gun on offer to us is also a copy of the GHN. Although its not surprising, the gun is extremely well designed given that its original designer Gerald Bull was a bonafide genius, a genius who's genius got him assassinated (by either the Israelis or the Iranians, one of the rare few folks who was on the hit list of those two otherwise antagonistic and mutually contrary nations).

I saw a doc on TV, he was building a big *** gun for Saddam, most prob. assassinated by Mossad. But why the heck was he doing it, I mean such a big gun is an easy stationary target for airstrikes.

 

[Dillinger]

i once asked CO of my father's unit about not inducting the Arjun ( it was an Armoured regiment ) and the response was a fake smile and a mild warning to not to discuss these things at a public gathering

Uska bhi toh itna bada locha hai. Everybody blames the IA for it, lets actually first understand how procurement occurs in India. The armed forces file means jack all when compared to the file compiled by the MoD mandarins- the latter seals the fate of a system meant to be procured, in this case the T-90. Lest one of us can get our hands on said file we can only speculate and try and appropriate blame as we see fit with our limited info and biases. Now the Arjun did have some actual problems when it first came out, given the ab initio nature of the things we put in it that was no surprise. But then how did it end up burdened with a veritable menagerie of required additions/upgrades? Let me hint at something, today one of the last problems spotted on the Arjun is an issue with the launching of a cannon launched missile, now pray tell why the IA is so hell bent on a cannon launched missile when the best heavy MBTs in the world have eschewed said option? Maybe because the IA has been beating its head against the MoD's wall screaming that it needs the MoD to convince the IAF that the IA needs its own heavy gunships for CAS and protecting its MBTs from enemy gunships, in the absence of which the IA wants to hedge its bet by ensuring that the tank it inducts has some rudimentary ability to engage armed hepters. There is always a reason, no one in our forces is mad or contrary for the sake of being contrary, the real question is that is there a more elegant solution which can be employed by the apex authority (the MoD) to address said reason/problem and still promote indigenous products?

I saw a doc on TV, he was building a big *** gun for Saddam, most prob. assassinated by Mossad. But why the heck was he doing it, I mean such a big gun is an easy stationary target for airstrikes.

Yes the super cannon. Mossad or even the Iranians given the context of the Iran-Iraq war, or the Americans given that he was killed in the Gulf war era.

 

[kurup]

L&T, Bharat Forge, Tatas aim guns on Indian version of Bofors

India’s plan to encourage the development of arms and ammunition for the defence forces has encouraged the private sector with domestic defence production companies including Larsen & Toubro (L&T), Bharat Forge and Tata Power SED entering the fray to locally develop the Indian prototype of the 155mm Bofors artillery gun system.

The Indian Army wants to replace the ageing Bofors guns procured in the 1980s but has failed to buy a single howitzer in the past 13 years because an international tender for 155mm/52-calibre guns earlier was aborted over the blacklisting of overseas competitors on charges of corruption.

The companies are eyeing orders worth $4 billion from the Indian Army that wants to replenish its dwindling artillery stocks. The sheer size of the order has pushed these companies into launching their indigenous research and development even without the knowledge whether their technology would be approved for induction by the user.

“We have indigenously developed a prototype of the 155mm gun that has passed several operational tests at our level. This would certainly be offered to the Indian Army after getting necessary certification from the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO),” said Baba N Kalyani, chairman of the Kalyani Group. Bharat Forge is part of the Kalyani Group.

“What India lacks is the ability to convert designs into manufactured products. This is where the Kalyani Group comes in. Building an artillery gun system is largely about materials, forgings and manufacturing. Bharat Forge has the capacity to deliver,” he added.

The Kalyani Group has invested about R100 crore on building artillery guns, armoured vehicles and unmanned ground vehicles. Bharat Forge has separately formed a venture with a unit of Elbit Systems to bid for the Indian Army’s contracts including for towed guns, mounted guns and the upgrade of 130mm artillery guns.

“We have already fielded two major systems — one-tracked gun and one-towed gun system,” said MV Kotwal, president (heavy engineering), L&T. With Samsung Techwin, L&T has also developed a desert gun which will be offered to the army as well as explore its potential in other countries. L&T has tested its guns in private .

L&T, Bharat Forge, Tatas aim guns on Indian version of Bofors | idrw.org

 

[SQ8]

Ultra Light Howitzer - 155mm/39cal, collaboration with the Mandus group

This particular system may of some interest in the North.

 

[Vinod2070]

This is the way to go.

Reputed large Indian industries should be encouraged to get in the defense field and encouraged with assured orders and risk sharing.

It is pathetic that Indian defense is entrusted to foreigners (private or state owned) industries but the Indian private sector is not trusted and encouraged.

Hopefully the entry of the likes of Kalyani, Reliance, Mahindras and Tatas should change things.

 

[Contrarian]

The question is - will the MoD accept Indian guns, or just like always try and stonewall private Indian development.