In-camera briefing on buying French submarines demanded

[Super Falcon]

i dont think so nuke tech should be coming on sub deal nuke deal will also earn money to france

---------- Post added at 10:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 AM ----------

money hungry france will do it any thing if we offer them better money in nuke they willl forgot subs

 

[MZUBAIR]

I am surpised Y COAS and CONS is silent?

 

[Super Falcon]

may be they will get their share too thats why they are silent i hope people of pakistan should choose their COAS,COANS,COAFS in future and CJP too so GOVT wont make these kick backs

 

[jalip]

Come on guys we will get some thing let the dust settle down CONS will make wise decision and he will let other know his brother is foreign sectary they must have good links with politician they will leak the news if some thing bad gona happen let us sign some thing first what we have is Q league Senator report they are doing politics on it.
What i think they are waiting for German decision along with they are pressurising them by showing interest in french Subs
Or they waiting for sarkozy visit so that they have some thing to talk about.
They should go for 3 u214 and 2 merlins along with the up gradation of agosta 70 that will keep french happy

 

[PAFAce]

may be they will get their share too thats why they are silent i hope people of pakistan should choose their COAS,COANS,COAFS in future and CJP too so GOVT wont make these kick backs

Lol! Man, that's like asking me who the next CEO of Microsoft should be. It makes no sense (I'll just say 'me'). I can understand your frustration, but let's wait and see what happens next. PAF has settled for iffy deals in the past, but I don't think the PN will. Historically, that has been our most efficient branch of the Armed Forces in terms of working with what they have. The Army has been good too, but then, they can get whatever they want, they run the show in Pakistan. Seriously, it is the Air Force that we need to worry about the most.

 

[Super Falcon]

airforce is better than navy i think navy has old weapons compare to airforce

 

[BATMAN]

Choosing French Submarine over German? : Rational decision or risking Pakistani defence ?

By Farzana Shah

A German team is due in few days probably on August 5th according to sources to look into possibility of signing the accord for provision of U-214 submarines to Pakistan Navy.

However reports appearing in the media suggest that the deal may hit snags due to change of mind in the current Pakistani government over purchase of German submarines.

In 2008 Pakistan Navy under chief of naval staff Admiral Muhammad Afzal Tahir made efforts for including German 214 Class submarines in its fleet and owing to Navy’s persistent efforts, the government had approved plans for acquisition of these submarines to be built at Karachi Shipyard under transfer of technology programme.

The details were later worked out between the two countries when a Pakistan Navy delegation visited Germany in April.

However recently quoting Pakistani government sources, the Financial Times Deutschland says President Asif Zardari may overrule his military’s preference for the German subs to take up a “better offer” from France.

But what better submarines France can offer to Pakistan? That is a question to ponder because France has no better submarines to offer Pakistan at the moment, whereas French are indeed not ready to offer us nuclear submarine.

What France has in store?

There are three options 1. Scorpion, 2. Marlin and 3. Barracuda submarines. But again the scorpions are not superior to U 214, neither these will be having any benefit for Pakistan because French company DCN is already going to provide Scorpion to Indian Navy ahead of Pakistan.

U-214 is way better than French design given to India. Marlin is just on drawing board and will take forever to go to prototype stage and then test and evaluation and finally induction into Pakistan Navy meanwhile India will have all its Scorpion in sea. DCN (Direction des Constructions Navales), France will not be able to fulfill Pakistani order ahead of Indians.

Now the only option for Pakistan will be to ask for Barracuda submarine, but it is unlikely that France will sell us nuclear submarine. Barracuda is a nuclear powered submarine and France does not currently allow the sale of nuclear-propelled submarines.

Despite having French Agosta B submarines, the Pakistani Navy opted for purchasing German Torpedoes for fitting to Agosta B due to the superior German technology.

Pakistan Navy needs German submarines because the German U-214 subs are far better than the French Scorpion.

Following is the comparison between French subs and German U 214.

Specifications of U-214

Crew

27 (including five officers)

Weapon Systems:
Torpedoes

Six 533mm tubes, 24 STN Atlas Elektronik DM2A4 torpedoes

Combat Data Syetem

Basic Command and Weapons Control System (BCWCS)

Countermeasures:

ESM

EADS

FL1800U

Decoys

TAU 2000 torpedo countermeasures system

Radar

Kelvin hughes type 1007 I-band navigation radar

Sonar

STN Atlas Elektronik DBQS-40 sonar suite and STN Atlas Elektronik MOA 3070 mine detection sonar

Periscopes

Zeiss Optronic SERO 14 search and SERO 15 attack

Propulsion

Diesel-electric, MTU 16V-396 diesel engine, 3.12MW, HDW / Siemens AIP (Air-Independent Propulsion) system, 300kW

U214 Dimensions:
Length

64m

Height

13m

Surface Displacement

1,700m³

Presure Hull Diameter

6.3m

Buoyancy Reserve 10%

U214 Performance:
Submerged Patrol Speed of Advance

6kt

Range

12,000nm

Mission Endurance

12 weeks

Constantly Submerged

Three weeks without snorkelling

Mission Sprint Speed

15kt to 20kt

Maximum Dive Depth

400m+

Scorpion (Scorpène) Subs (French One) Specifications

Key Data:

Crew

32

Dimensions:
Overall Length

63.5m

Draught

5.4m

Submerged Displacement

1,590t

Surface Displacement

1,450t

Pressure Hull Weldable and High-Tensile Steel

80HLES, more than 700Mpa

Performance:
Maximum Operating Depth

350m

Submerged Speed

Over 20 kt

Range (at 8kt)

6,400nm

Endurance

50 days

Weapon Systems:
Torpedoes / Missiles

Six 21in torpedo tubes for 18 torpedoes / missiles

Comparison

Specs Scorpion U-214 Marlin
Crew 32 27
Maximum Operating Depth


350 meters More than 400 meters
Range 6400 nm 12000 nm
Endurance 50 Days 84 Days


The comparison clearly indicates the superiority of German U-214 submarine.

If the current government goes for inferior quality French submarines then it will indeed give weight to suspicion of many Pakistanis who see bribes as main factor behind any irrational decisions viz viz defence deals.

Already the Pakistani senators have demanded in an incamera briefing from Pakistani Naval chief in the Senate.

Whereas some eyebrows have also been raised over the fact that foreign secretary Salman Bashir in the current government of Zardari is the brother of Naval Chief, Noman Bashir and there are also some reports that PIA chairman is going to be named Pakistani envoy to France. Some political pundits see such an appointment an attempt to muster a deal for French submarines.

On the other hand submarine acquisition project (SMAP) a group composed of Naval officers who have recommended U-214 submarines over other options after extensive study has been disbanded and the officers have been posted out at different stations.

Though earlier the Germans have delayed the deal due to political situation of Pakistan but can kickoff cutting of hull for first submarine immediately after signing the deal.

In such a situation going for something which does not fulfill the requirement of Pakistan Navy would be tantamount to putting the national defence at risk.

There is no reason not to go for German submarines specially when Berlin even granted federal export credit guarantees worth nearly $1.4 billion for the purchase of the same.

 

[Patriot]

Farzana Shah is member here.

 

[BATMAN]

Why we went to Paris for submarine deal?
Akhtar Jamal

Islamabad—PML-Q Senator Sardar Mohammad Jamal Khan Leghari in a surprising revelation shocked the members of the Senate on July 30 by a claim that President Zardari had refused to approve the deal for purchase of German submarines and the file submitted to the Presidency recently had been rejected. He added that a team of Pakistani Naval officials had been receiving training on manning of sophisticated submarine in Germany for one and a half year.

The Senator also claimed that the rejection of German submarine was aimed at paving the way for the purchase of French submarines and the one billion dollars were behind the latest defence deal with France.

He elaborated that Pakistan already possessed the French submarine technology and needed diversified technology. He demanded that Pakistan Naval Chief should give an in-camera briefing to the legislators to clarify the position.

The Senator’s criticism followed a report that Islamabad was tilting towards France rather than Germany which with much struggle had recently cleared the way for export of three submarines to Pakistan.

According to defence experts, for Germany it was an economically promising but politically risky deal but despite backdoor work by Indian lobby the Germans had agreed to sell three U-214 submarines built by German ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems to Pakistan for an estimated $2 billion.

Defence experts told Pakistan Observer that Germany was ready and was awaiting a formal order from the Ministry of Defence. A German team of Naval experts had visited Karachi to discuss technicalities and a Pakistan Naval team also visited Germany to make final inspection. According to reports the German government had even agreed to grant federal export credit guarantees worth nearly $1.4 billion.

Sources confirm that as the deal was proceeding and 95% ready, President Asif Ali Zardari overruled his military’s preference for the German subs to take up a “better offer” from France. The change of heart was noted when President Zardari visited Paris in May and has long meeting with French President.
To the surprise of many Pakistanis on the eve of President Zardari’s visit a French judge accused some “powerful Pakistanis” of having something to do with the murder of 11 French engineers in Karachi in May 2002 as a retaliation for the decision of France’s new government to cease bribe payments from the 1995 deal.

Coincidentally, in 1995 too, the Pakistan People’s Party was in power when the government bought three French Agosta 90-B submarines. President Zardari was then Minister for Investment in the PPP Government while now French President Nicolas Sarkozy was a key aide to then French President Edouard Balladur. The two developed a close relationship since then.

President Zardari’s decision to turn to Paris for the deal also coincided with reports that PPP Government had decided to appoint a civil servant from the District Management Group as the Ambassador of Pakistan to France. The most unusual appointment was resented by the veteran and serving diplomats at home abroad and Prime Minister had to intervene and cancel the appointment of Mohammed Jehanzeb Khan.

Opposition members here claim that the delay in the issuing of the order for the German submarines that were almost finalized in December 2008 had “something to do with President Zardari’s meeting with President Sarkozy of France in May 2009? “ They also claim that the appointment of a junior civil servant as the envoy to Paris may also be related to this decision.

Defence observers say that the Government managed to silence opposition to French deal by claiming that Paris had agreed to sign a peaceful nuclear cooperation deal while Germans were reluctant to deliver such an accord. Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi had claimed during President Zardari’s visit to Paris that France had agreed to extend cooperation in nuclear technology but French officials clarified that the cooperation would be limited to the safety and security of the nuclear plants.

On July 2nd when French Admiral Edouard Guillaud, Advisor to President Sarkozy visited Pakistan he met with President Asif Ali Zardari, Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani and Army Chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani.

Admiral Guillaud’s visit to Pakistan was considered as part of efforts aimed at further boosting the Pak-French relations in the wake of Zardari-Sarkozy meetings in May this year.

PM proposed that the governments of Pakistan and France should chalk out a roadmap for pragmatic cooperation in the field of civil nuclear energy but there was no firm response from French side.

Admiral Guillaud however, assured the prime minister that France would provide military equipment including Tiger Helicopters to Pakistan.

Again on July 23 on the occasion of a visist by French Secretary of State for Foreign Trade, Anne Marie Idrac, Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani hoped that Pakistan would sign framework agreements with France on defence, security and energy this year and said that Pakistan wanted a long-term strategic partnership with France.

Ms Idrac promised her country’s continued support to Pakistan in its efforts to overcome economic difficulties and win the war against terror. She said she would hold detailed discussions on economic and energy agreements. Ms Idrac made it clear that a proposed partnership between Pakistan and France on civilian nuclear energy would be limited to nuclear safety and security.

What we propose is something very important, which is the possibility for technical people to discuss very precisely what can be done in terms of safety and security for the existing civil nuclear plants,’ she had clarified.

 

[nightrider_saulat]

an eye-opener report by farzana shah

 

[BATMAN]

What is the update on the issue?
Will there be in camera briefing oe not?
If Pakistan can publish the detailed spending of its defence budget than why a parliament session on a controvertial issue be hided from nation?

 

[ironman]

I think this report speaks more than 'specifications'.

Scorpene In Rough Sea​

German class 214 submarine enters the fray with a hard to resist offer
FORCE May-2005
By Prasun K. Sengupta

The ‘almost done deal' for acquiring six Scorpene-class diesel-electric submarines (SSK) worth almost US$2 billion for the Indian Navy now certainly appears to be in jeopardy, as the German Submarine Consortium (GSC) last month made a hard-to-refuse offer for supplying an equal number of Type 214 SSKs along with a related package for upgrading the navy's existing four Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs that were acquired from the GSC in the 1980s. To make the offer extremely attractive, GSC has proposed the following:

The Type 214 SSKs are being offered at prices 30 per cent cheaper than the Scorpenes.

State-owned, Mumbai-based Mazagon Docks (MDL), which has so far licence-built two Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs, will be trained and equipped by the GSC to licence-build the Type 214s within a six-month period following contract signature.

GSC will have an industrial tie-up with MDL to enable the latter to independently undertake the mid-life refits of the navy's existing four Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs that will include the installation of self-contained ‘hull modules' that will house fuel-cell-based air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems similar to the ones on board the Class 214 SSK.

GSC will give the navy total flexibility to choose, install and integrate the Type 214 SSK's combat management system; guided-weapons; optronic periscopes; tactical data links; SATCOM and VLF communications suites; search radar; electronic warfare (EW) suite; and the sonar suite that will include a cylindrical array sonar for medium-frequency passive detection, flank array sonar for low/medium-frequency detection, thin line active/passive towed-array for low-frequency determination of target range and bearing of hostile submarines, an intercept array sonar for detection of active emissions of surface warships, and an active high-frequency mine detection sonar.

http://www.forceindia.net/images/scropeneinroughsea.jpg


It is believed that India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) is favourably disposed to GSC's offer due to the following reasons:

Unlike the Scorpene, which is equipped and armed with sensors and systems made only by France (by Armaris, THALES, SAGEM and MBDA) and Spain (IZAR), the Type 214 SSK is being offered with a choice of weapons and sensors from different countries. This means the SSK will be able to fire the Russian Novator-built 3M54E Klub-S supersonic anti-ship cruise missile (ASCM) and its 3M-14E land-attack variant, which is well-liked by the navy and is currently operational with at least four of the navy's upgraded Type 877EKM Kilo-class SSKs.

The Scorpene SSK, although ordered by Chile (two) and Malaysia (two), does not yet have an operational AIP system. Armaris is still developing the steam turbine-based ‘MESMA' (Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome) AIP system, which basically burns ethanol and liquid oxygen to make the steam needed to drive a turbo-electric generator. In contrast, the fuel-cell-based AIP system developed by the GSC and Siemens is currently operational with the navies of Germany and Italy.

GSC's offer of ‘helping enable' MDL to upgrade in-country the navy's four 1,850-ton Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs, which will approach the end of their operational lives between 2016 and 2024, is something Armaris of France cannot match. The navy too regards the mid-life upgrade of these four SSKs an operational necessity.

The fuel-cell-based AIP system of the Class 214 SSK is similar in design and operating concept to the Kristall-27E AIP of the Russian Amur 1650-class SSK, six of which will be licence-built for the navy by Larsen & Toubro Ltd and be armed with BrahMos vertically-launched, multi-role supersonic cruise missiles (see FORCE November 2004, page 22). This will help greatly reduce the life-cycle costs of both the Type 214 and the Amur 1650 SSK fleets.

The Type 214 SSK is derived from the Type 212 SSK, four of which have begun entering service with the German Navy and were built by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW) of Kiel and Thyssen Nordseewerke GmbH (TNSW) of Enden, both members of the GSC. The two Type 212s ordered by the Italian Navy are being licence-built by Fincantieri. The Greek Navy has ordered four Type 214 SSKs, while South Korea has ordered three Type 214 SSKs that are being licence-built by Hyundai Heavy Industries.

The Type 214 has an increased diving depth of more than 400 metres (more than 1,400 feet), compared to the Scorpene's 300 metres. Its hull length is 65 metres and displacement is 1,700 tonnes. Built of austenitic steel (HY-80 and HY-100), the SSK's buoyancy reserve is in excess of 10 per cent. Four of its eight torpedo launch tubes (equipped with a water ram expulsion system) are capable of firing ASCMs. Heavyweight torpedoes used by the Type 214 SSK include the Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subaquei-built Black Shark or STN Atlas' DM2A4 dual purpose, wire-guided heavy torpedo.

Propulsion is provided by two MTU-built 16V396 diesel-electric engines (2,000 kW) serving a 600-900V propulsion battery with a fully integrated auxiliary AIP system based on two PEM (polymer electrolyte membrane) 120kW fuel-cell modules. The propulsion motor is a Siemens Permasyn (Type FR6439-3900KW) low-speed permanently excited electric motor driving a low-noise, skewback 7-blade propeller. Using the AIP system on submerged patrol and intercept missions enables the Type 214 SSK to remain submerged for up to 13 days at a speed of 4 Knots. Submerged sprint speeds of between 16 and 20+ Knots are possible for periods of a few hours several times during a 50-day mission. At a speed of 6 Knots the mission range is almost 12,000nm, while the maximum endurance is 84 days.

The navy's Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs were ordered on 11 December 1981. The first two SSKs (S-44 Shishumar and S-45 Shankush) were built by HDW and were inducted into service on 22 September and 20 November 1986, respectively. The remaining two (S-46 Shalki and S-47 Shankul) were licence-built by MDL and entered service on 7 February 1992 and 28 May 1994.

 

[Arsalan]

well guys if the deal infact goes france's way, i will not be fine with just blaming Zardari. it is a multi billion dollar project and he alone cannot digest it, if there is no one stopping him ten, fore me COAS, COANS,COAFS are to be equally blamed for this piece of ****!! they must come up and stop any such happening.
even the bundle deal, accompanied by nuclear technology is a ll rubbish as french have made a clear statement about the nuke technology that it is not for Pakistan and also the tiger are not wort enough to spend some 50 million per peices and more over ruine a billion dollar sub deal!
french have nothing to offer to on par with the standard of U214, not even anything to counter the indina subs threat!! the only good option is barcudda and this is not going to happen!!
the military top brass must step up if the are loyal enough otherwise they will go down as culprits in history books!!

regards!

 

[ouiouiouiouiouioui]

french quality

 

[Myth_buster_1]

french quality

over german type-214?