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In a snub to US, India to go ahead with S-400 missile deal with Russia

The age of super power ship is long gone. Today almost 10 countries have nuclear weapons, ready to annihilate each other several times.
That's not how superpowers work...

US wont. But if they want to pressurise India they easily can. They will start upgrading Pak's F16s and provide advanced AtoA missiles, etc.
Nah, the US wouldn't do that unless they saw India as such a threat as great as the USSR which they don't and won't. But they could still pressure India in other ways as already mentioned
 
....and will lose much needed $$$ and jobs in the process. of course, with trump being trump, anything is possible.
his ego over everything.

Exactly.

so u need a "communal, medieval, occupied, closed, ancient paada paada" political and godi media? wow

Right now, everything that secularists and liberals feel that is against their opinion is called that. Even me. As someone of an Indian faith, I am also not allowed to be proud of my heritage and shared philosophy since ancient times. If Hindus show cultural pride, they are communal fascists, if Owaisi screams death to Hindus, he is secular liberal. If I agree with Hindus, I am a brainwashed communal fascist too OR some go to the length of proving me as a fake.

If this is the meaning of communal, then I would prefer such a communal and ancient "pada pada" media.


There are always modifications that can be made. Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs and Jains have had no problem historically to comply with national government laws. They don't demand political influence in the name of some foreign land or foreign belief unlike Abrahamic religions which have a history of colonization way outside their sphere of origin.

Hindu nationalism did not rise until communist/leftist policies of government started appeasing "minority" appeasement and started giving special political symbolism to certain specific communities.

chinese banned religion. try doing that in india. it would hurt the present govt the most.
try imposing an emergency like indira did. before comparing with china, try to understand that our fundamentals, our societies and our pluralistic nature is opposite of what china is today.

Before you start drawing literal comparisons, you must understand why Chinese did what they had to do. They did that because faith had become institutionalised with influential leaders that undermined the national government. In order to ensure that there is no foreign intellectual and controlling mechanism penetrating into China, The CPC banned religion. However, today it has allowed people to believe in what they want as long as they comply with government rules.

Which means: things such as 'kill, convert, influence' etc are edited out of books of organised religions before they enter China. Fair enough for their society.

None of the Indian faiths and some communities such as Jews and Zoroastrians, interfere with government rules.
Let me give you an example of why I am making this difference: Zoroastrian high priest agreed to allow electric cremation as an alternate to Towers of Silence to contribute to the society. Many Hindus and even us now use electric incinerators because excessive usage of wood is affecting the environment.

Can you imagine Muslims or Christians agreeing with the the government's request of using electric cremation? There will be mass riots and anarchy across the country if they were even so much as requested. In China, that is never going to happen.

However, there are ways to be authoritarian by slightly modifying the social aspect of the governance model of China. Let there be social freedom upto a slight limit but everything else, such as infrastructure, healthcare, defence, industry etc can be managed like China. No one, not even Indians of foreign religions, want to remain backward after all. All want good education, healthcare, jobs, infrastructure, security etc.

But our current system of democracy has now started to negatively affect the country.

We need to be more result-oriented rather than process-oriented and appreciate what other countries do better than us.

China is hands-down far ahead of us in administrative affairs and managing national strategic interests. We may have disagreements with them but give them credit where due.

The age of super power ship is long gone. Today almost 10 countries have nuclear weapons, ready to annihilate each other several times.

Today's warfare is digital and economic, biological and social engineering.

What US does with Iraq, Somalia, Libya etc is just test demonstrations to sell weapons. Those weapons are only to be used against pawns who can be killed which are of no consequence to their masters.

Think about it; countries such as USA, Russia and China could hack into any country's national sewage treatment systems and damage it to poison environment. They can use things like STUXNET to overload nuclear power plants, influence digital government records across the world and alter election results, change the profile of high value targets of an enemy state with identities of those whom they want to kill etc.

That, is a superpower. Ability to be at the cutting edge of technology to destroy enemies with minimal damage.
 
They couldn't give a toss about India. Yes it would have been better to have them on board against China and sort of push them in front and use them as a buffer, but the Indians are not stupid. Although China remains a rival India knows that to throw their lot in will be a mistake they couldn't afford to make. Look at what happened with Pakistan in the 90's.... The US will look elsewhere and carry on.

Absolutely right.
But look at our history ,for us we had a same moron US Prez in 1971 Nixon that sent 7th fleet against us .
Do we need to trust this US?
We wont and never will.
Actually Putin is covering both China and India from evil eye of west and US.
And no matter as long us the deal wont hit our pocket and national interests we will give preference to the Russians.
S 400 is the priority .
Let US do whatever they want

if india, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey are going ahead with S-400, then i think there would be no problem for Pakistan to buy things from Russia.

@waz @Zarvan @fatman17 @Horus @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal Khan 777

I think India would be the last customer of S 400.
After this they will use their full force to stop the proliferation of S 400.
Because this one is actually hurting their business

I agree they will not take (major) punitive actions against India though you and a few others are wrongly comparing the US's handling of affairs with India and those with China. With China, they have and will be confrontational albeit without trying to jeopardise trade ties but they will not be as hawkish with India. It is rather due to their geostrategic ambitions in the South Asian and even Asia-Pacific reason that they will ensure they do not alienate India.

Do not be mistaken, if the US wanted, they could break India just as they could with most other countries bar China and a few
others.

No they cant .
They had already tried everything for decades .
Look at the way they talks to Turks and India.

Khan saheb please! It is an unfair comment. I know it is said in jest but still unfair.
Bold move from India and kudoos to their political establishment. Let us see what US does in response.
A

Possibly sanctions .
But by the time Indian officials already calculated the possible response from US and its effect on India
 
No they cant .
Whatever, if you think they can't then so be it. You mistakenly underestimate US influence in global affairs and overestimate Indian strength against true pressure. Who will back you in such sanctions if they were to happen? Russia or China wouldn't, nor would the EU. India is not some universal Vedic power that can stand against full American pressure.
 
....and will lose much needed $$$ and jobs in the process. of course, with trump being trump, anything is possible.
his ego over everything.


so u need a "communal, medieval, occupied, closed, ancient paada paada" political and godi media? wow

chinese banned religion. try doing that in india. it would hurt the present govt the most.
try imposing an emergency like indira did.
before comparing with china, try to understand that our fundamentals, our societies and our pluralistic nature is opposite of what china is today.
hell, our business model is replicating the US model and the current govt throws in its full support to this madness.[/QU
Whatever, if you think they can't then so be it. You mistakenly underestimate US influence in global affairs and overestimate Indian strength against true pressure. Who will back you in such sanctions if they were to happen? Russia or China wouldn't, nor would the EU. India is not some universal Vedic power that can stand against full American pressure.
If the obvious fact hurts you a lot .
That is not my problem .
This is the truth .
When our Govt makes a decision like this ,they might calculated every moves of US and its affect on us .
 
Lol.. we are talking about engine which is the most difficult part to make and you try act smart by diverting to FCS?

Let me repeat again, india is no way to make a class of F404 even in next 15years time. You are at mercy of American , British or Russian. Period. :enjoy:
France is helping us ;)

I dont know why others dont, but i du
 
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If the obvious fact hurts you a lot .
That is not my problem .
This is the truth .
When our Govt makes a decision like this ,they might calculated every moves of US and its affect on us .
yes, it goes without saying the calculate the moves of indian partners. that's how diplomacy works.
i'm not the one thinking my country can do the largely impossible, so i'm not the one in need of painkillers. like i've said several time already in this thread, the US will not take drastic action against india but if they were to, india would back out of this deal.
 
France is helping us ;)

I dont know why others dont, but i du
You are in delusion. You think the French really will help India and transfer their know how to help India breaks the bottleneck? Continue live in your fantasy. :enjoy:
 
You are in delusion. You think the French really will help India and transfer their know how to help India breaks the bottleneck? Continue live in your fantasy. :enjoy:
They are already helping us.
 
They are already helping us.
They are just lynching money from you Indians. Tell me when are your kaveri engine is going to fly your LCA? Definitely not within another 10 years time. This is true hard fact.
 
Indigenization has become the first priority, followed by JVs.

The pace remains very slow. That is something which I am worried about.

IMRH, the supposed replacement for Mi-17 medium lift helicopters is still only a model. Not one prototype has been tested. India needs over 800+ helicopters for all the three service arms. And if IMRH is supposed to be replacing everything, then HAL will need a production line that can throw 80 helos per year.

The peak of HAL capability is 33 Tejas per year right now.

It will take at least 20 years from the day our first helicopter comes to whichever service arm, to augment helicopter fleet.
 
But I believe it's the end for US arms sales
Don't think so @waz
India has emerged one of the largest non NATO market for US defence industry and i don't think corporate sector that contributes significant electoral funds to both Democrats and Republicans will let go such a market.
there will be noises as expected but in long run, Economics will prevail over Political grand standing. It always has!

Russia needed India's support here.
it is highly unlikely that any other nation can take place of Russia when it comes to strategic relations with India.
& Defence contracts are a very small part of overall picture.
 
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