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In 2008 Mumbai Killings, Piles of Spy Data, but an Uncompleted Puzzle

@Oscar


Why do you keep repeating that line that only Indians are connecting ISI with LeT, and that that too may have come out of interrogation under mysterious circumstances when facts are completely to the contrary? Headly was in the US when he got caught, how did India extract information from him when Indians didn't even have access to him? You do know that he gave up his connection to the ISI (with names of his handlers in the organization) even before Indians got to him in Chicago, right?

And what about all other nations pointing out not only ISI's collusion but even its handling of LeT operatives? Even the French!

Are you trying to say that all other countries liars and only ISI the angel amongst us?
 
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@Oscar

Let us look at 26/11 in another manner without getting into technicalities
because the exact legal judicial and technical ( transcripts ) exchanges between
India and Pakistan are not known to either of us in their entirety

Have you ever wondered why Pakistan has been so much on the defensive
post 26/11 ; in its interaction with India

It is because the evidence is so huge
that the entire world believes and knows about the involvement of ISI

Even now the Pakistani constant refrain is that India has USED 26/11
to oppose the resolution of all kinds of disputes

For eg when we simply refuse to discuss Kashmir
because of 26/11 ; NO country says anything
because our position on 26/ 11 is very strong and Pakistan
is unable to give any convincing arguement

Infact many senior Pakistani analysts have on TV commented that
India has MILKED 26/ 11 to the hilt and succeeded in portraying a bad image of Pakistan

The kind of "lecturing " that US and other countries have given to Pakistan post 26/11
would not have happened without solid evidence

Pakistan would have strongly opposed the allegations and the subsequent infamy
that they brought ; in ALL available forum ; IF all the evidence had been weak
 
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There are various PoVs on what you state. First, assuming that because the LeT is the brainchild of the ISI(which it is) and hence the ISI is responsible is one usual suspect idea but not one to pursue constantly without exact proof(something that the article still states) is based on the interrogation of a suspect(by Indian authorities under unknown conditions. After all, what guarantee is there that the interrogations of both Headly and Kasab were not done under this premise..
View attachment 178085

As for the LeT and ISI. the LeT is the Pakistani establishment's afterthought on the Afghan war and its "revenge" if you will to pay back India in the same coin as India did with the Mukti bahni(the original proxy war). So yes, the ISI maintained a good amount of links with them. However, just as with a Police force and with a Mob.. the LeT has now grown powerful enough to essentially have a chokehold on the ISI and their officers. So even though Musharraf officially ended the involvement with the LeT and Taliban in 2002, the links have taken much longer to die(which are based on three tiered asset control). So while there may still be ex-ISI assets that are well trained enough to plan and execute the 26/11 attacks with the LeT.. official involvement by the ISI is extremely unlikely.

Now if you look at your own post, you have only repeated the "Let is ISI" to make your point without actually acknowledging that the interrogation itself might be suspect enough for anyone other than the Indian officials or those Media assets looking for TrP to buy the idea that the attack was somehow approved at the ISI headquarters in Islamabad with the approval of the President, Army Chief and PM.

As for why the actions have not been taken against the prime suspects, it is because these assets(not just LeT members) are in no mood to go to jail and hence manipulate and coax the judicial system to delay prosecution and/or jail time. The Army is NOT responsible for what the ISI does because they operate independantly and the actions of the latter are usually not known to the Army Chief or even the president(the same is the case with the CIA). Hence, if the ISI did find that one of its junior part time guys was responsible for planning the Mumbai attacks.. it will simply cut the guy off and ensure his safety.. that person will use his links within the Police and Judiciary .. and threats from his connections with the LeT and political parties to ensure that the case never moves forward.

The common incorrect assumption in India and with all Indians is to think that the Spy Network In Pakistan is uniform or that links with the LeT, Haqqani network and others are maintained via direct control or even exist many a times. @Joe Shearer

In fact the title of the article itself is a clue to what the actual reality is.. that the article assumes that it is just this sort of puzzle.

View attachment 178086
When really what you are dealing with is this.
View attachment 178087

Which is why I'll come back to the original article and the question I raised on how did it manage to conclude that the ISI is officially involved and why can we automatically assume that the Indian interrogation(like any Pakistani or Iraqi interrogation) was completely less of torture or coercion to fake a result.



You should read my post above for the answer to the first paragraph.

And the second too is answered well enough.

For India to actually get a result that Pakistan simply cannot deny is to take Kasab and Headly to the ICJ and file a case there. Only after both the witnesses along with any other that the ICJ wants are interrogated by interpol or other authorities to build a solid undeniable case which India can then press the UN for to have Pakistan prosecute the people responsible.

the military of pakistan which include ISI is highly radicalized during 80s. but it is not correct that those EX-ISI offices are behind the planing and ISI don't have any knowledge.. these kind of operation, planing, and training cannot be done without military support. those 10 terrorists are trained in karachi and in Azad Kashmir. Azad Kashmir is highly militarized area. david headly is arrested by FBI not by indian agencies.. . he confessed that ISI is behind the attack. if you want a non india source then you can watch this video of Bruce Riedel, a former Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) analyst and counter-terrorism expert explains about pakistan military, ISI and its involvement in 26/11..
 
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the military of pakistan which include ISI is highly radicalized during 80s. but it is not correct that those EX-ISI offices are behind the planing and ISI don't have any knowledge.. these kind of operation, planing, and training cannot be done without military support. those 10 terrorists are trained in karachi and in Azad Kashmir. Azad Kashmir is highly militarized area. david headly is arrested by FBI not by indian agencies.. . he confessed that ISI is behind the attack. if you want a non india source then you can watch this video of Bruce Riedel, a former Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) analyst and counter-terrorism expert explains about pakistan military, ISI and its involvement in 26/11..

You should have read the post more clearly where I have said that the ISI may not be entirely aware of what is going on. There may be a major or captain who could have orchestrated the whole deal without any knowledge of his superiors or their directives.

Well, I tried. I don't understand "three-tiered asset control". It reads like a long excuse for poor performance fighting terror by Pakistan: no changes have been made to improve the democratic accountability and review of intel services and their "children". That sort of unaccountable power and criminal immunity has no place in a well-functioning democracy.

I don't think external pressure suffices without domestic pressure. Imo, all Pakistani politicians, because of the shaky nature of Pakistani democracy, need some grass-roots support to give their initiatives legitimacy.

What key points, exactly, did I miss?

It is no excuse, it just a flawed system they built up. Officer->NCO/Retired NCO-> Mullah/Let Mullah/Haqqani Mullah
So essentially the idea you talk about "innocent until proven guilty" chain of command. It all sounds great for innocent until proven guilty until you end up losing control because of the rather ambiguous connection of the chain.
However, for people like Hafiz Saeed or Dawood Ibrahim.. the connections are more direct.

Again, your focus is trying to justify to me that somehow this is not the situation that should be in utopia and so on.. without realizing that I fully agree with you. Your assumption is that I am trying to apologize for the phenomenon when all I am is explaining how it all works...which I put in the key points.
 
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You should have read the post more clearly where I have said that the ISI may not be entirely aware of what is going on. There may be a major or captain who could have orchestrated the whole deal without any knowledge of his superiors or their directives.

even as you said if a major or captain of ISI is involved means that ISI is involved in it... surely even if the top ranking officer isi knows about the attack then they are not going to stop it either
 
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There are various PoVs on what you state. First, assuming that because the LeT is the brainchild of the ISI(which it is) and hence the ISI is responsible is one usual suspect idea but not one to pursue constantly without exact proof(something that the article still states) is based on the interrogation of a suspect(by Indian authorities under unknown conditions. After all, what guarantee is there that the interrogations of both Headly and Kasab were not done under this premise..
View attachment 178085

As for the LeT and ISI. the LeT is the Pakistani establishment's afterthought on the Afghan war and its "revenge" if you will to pay back India in the same coin as India did with the Mukti bahni(the original proxy war). So yes, the ISI maintained a good amount of links with them. However, just as with a Police force and with a Mob.. the LeT has now grown powerful enough to essentially have a chokehold on the ISI and their officers. So even though Musharraf officially ended the involvement with the LeT and Taliban in 2002, the links have taken much longer to die(which are based on three tiered asset control). So while there may still be ex-ISI assets that are well trained enough to plan and execute the 26/11 attacks with the LeT.. official involvement by the ISI is extremely unlikely.

Now if you look at your own post, you have only repeated the "Let is ISI" to make your point without actually acknowledging that the interrogation itself might be suspect enough for anyone other than the Indian officials or those Media assets looking for TrP to buy the idea that the attack was somehow approved at the ISI headquarters in Islamabad with the approval of the President, Army Chief and PM.

As for why the actions have not been taken against the prime suspects, it is because these assets(not just LeT members) are in no mood to go to jail and hence manipulate and coax the judicial system to delay prosecution and/or jail time. The Army is NOT responsible for what the ISI does because they operate independantly and the actions of the latter are usually not known to the Army Chief or even the president(the same is the case with the CIA). Hence, if the ISI did find that one of its junior part time guys was responsible for planning the Mumbai attacks.. it will simply cut the guy off and ensure his safety.. that person will use his links within the Police and Judiciary .. and threats from his connections with the LeT and political parties to ensure that the case never moves forward.

The common incorrect assumption in India and with all Indians is to think that the Spy Network In Pakistan is uniform or that links with the LeT, Haqqani network and others are maintained via direct control or even exist many a times. @Joe Shearer

In fact the title of the article itself is a clue to what the actual reality is.. that the article assumes that it is just this sort of puzzle.

View attachment 178086
When really what you are dealing with is this.
View attachment 178087

Which is why I'll come back to the original article and the question I raised on how did it manage to conclude that the ISI is officially involved and why can we automatically assume that the Indian interrogation(like any Pakistani or Iraqi interrogation) was completely less of torture or coercion to fake a result.



You should read my post above for the answer to the first paragraph.

And the second too is answered well enough.

For India to actually get a result that Pakistan simply cannot deny is to take Kasab and Headly to the ICJ and file a case there. Only after both the witnesses along with any other that the ICJ wants are interrogated by interpol or other authorities to build a solid undeniable case which India can then press the UN for to have Pakistan prosecute the people responsible.

You have a point. At a certain level of examination, you have a valid point. It breaks down, however, on closer examination.

There is no denying that when the due process of law is taken into account, and the rules of evidence are taken into account, it is difficult (not impossible) to prove that
  1. The Bombay killings were done by an organised Pakistani gang;
  2. The gang was managed by an individual who can be, and has been identified;
  3. The individual belongs to the LeT, and the head of the successor organisation of the LeT is still active and preaching the same hate message;
  4. The LeT has received logistic, communications and training support from apparently military sources of some kind, although it cannot be established that the military entities are actually part of the ISI.
Sure, when these two apply, due process of law and the rules of evidence, it is difficult to prove any of this. Is this really the extent of your argument? I think not, unless I have grossly misunderstood your stand. But let us take it in the limited sense first, and assume that this is the extent of your argument.

In my humble opinion, this is comparing apples with oranges, to compare what happened with a normal law and order incident, or with a violent crime of any sort. It was not through the due process of law that the authorities in Pakistan acted on other occasions, occasions for which we have Pakistani testimony in bushelfuls. And it was not through the rules of evidence that these actions were established and proved. Now we have two ways of proceeding in matters like this: we can assume that everything, past, present and future, is one intermingled skein of thread, and treat it like that, everything is connected, so everything can be cited. Or we can decide that each incident is to be taken independent of any other incident, occurring before it or after, and seek to find the roots of every single matter independently.

I believe you have already made a choice, and put our discussion on well-worn tram-lines, by raising the question of 1971.

If that is correct, that leaves me free to point out that collusion by the Pakistani state with non-state actors started in 1947, not in 2008. It was repeated in 1965, six years before 1971. There was NO action by the Indian state of a similar nature, aimed at Pakistan or its people or its territory. Not unless you count the arguments over the placement of border outposts in the Rann of Kutch as equivalent to either Akbar Khan being commissioned to lead raiders armed by the Pakistani Army into the Kashmir Valley as what has been called kabalis, or to the Pakistani Army's landing of commandos in Kashmir in 1965 who were tasked to act as members of the public and carry out acts of violence against Indian institutions posing as natives of Kashmir.

It was never about the due processes of law on the Pakistani side. It was not due to the rules of evidence that her role was brought into the open, but the frank writings and publications of authorised persons and key players in these incidents, people who were uniformly loyal and patriotic Pakistanis.

So why, in this case, which, by the rules of the discussion that you yourself have set, is connected to earlier cases, and may be connected to later cases, should you insist on the due process of law and the rules of evidence? Unless it is to prove that using these, nothing can be established?

Of course you are right. Nothing can be established, at the moment, on the four points enumerated above. But I submit that you are already on very thin ice, and I submit that it is not a well-thought through position that you have taken.

At the time that the raid on Kashmir took place, all important sources of information and opinion in Pakistan were at pains to say that nothing had been done with the collusion of state entities, or at the instigation of the political leadership at the highest levels. It was only later that with the publications of Akbar Khan's book, or Major R. G. Brown's memoirs, or Tariq Ali's Clash of Fundamentalisms, that these incidents, to some extent already admitted by Pakistan by her actions during the meeting of the UN Commission on the Plebiscite, were authenticated, and that we came to know that these were carefully organised acts of military intervention, not spontaneous uprisings of citizens.

The decision to send in commandos was not admitted at the time of the 65 conflict by Pakistan, and it was only with subsequent publications and testimonials by prominent Pakistanis that we came to know what had transpired internally.

In 1999, things happened on the northern sector, which at first were blandly denied by Pakistan as being populist violent reactions to Indian institutions in Kashmir. Your Army chief, and later the head of your state, denied it so many times that when he finally admitted something like the truth, it seemed incongruous. It was only later that we got to know from Pakistani sources that these were soldiers of the Northern Light Infantry. Only later, but we did get to know, thanks to the frankness and honesty of Pakistanis themselves.

Are you entirely sure that your confident assertions will not be demolished by an authoritative source from Pakistan, a source even more convincing than the arrested terrorist, or the spy who identified topographic features while in the role of a US agent, or the voice recordings that have been supplied to the Pakistani authorities, or the statements of your own GEO TV team that traced the assassin back to his village of origin?
 
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even as you said if a major or captain of ISI is involved means that ISI is involved in it... surely even if the top ranking officer isi knows about the attack then they are not going to stop it either

Nope, they wont know about it all. Spy agencies like the ISI, CIA and Mossad routinly have assets that end up running independent unsanctioned operations that usually leads to their respective agencies getting a massive headache
 
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When there is no proof and only claims are made, all it does is make the entire Indian official machinery the equivalent of conspiracy theorists. So far there is no proof, I asked for it.. and as such have only got the usual Desi response of "Its there", You can see it!, You dont know?!".. well, where is it?

headley himself stated that the State/ISI was NOT involved in recruiting him or others

he was the one doing recce missions there, while being on the payroll (informant) of US DEA/FBI/NIA

no solid proof exists - which is why the investigation failed to go forward


indians should be asking more questions regarding the killing of Hemant Karkare....many in india wanted him silenced, using Pakistan as a scape-goat...its a known fact, even his wife has gone public about this
 
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Nope, they wont know about it all. Spy agencies like the ISI, CIA and Mossad routinly have assets that end up running independent unsanctioned operations that usually leads to their respective agencies getting a massive headache
it is obvious that political leaders won't know all about the operations, but the chief of the organisation will have the complete knowledge of operation, even not a complete knowledge but surely knows about it because these kind of operation need lot of money, and resources to cover up.
 
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Not just any NYT article. The reporters who wrote it have extremely good sources in the White House. If they didn't have a record of accurately reporting it they would not keep these sources. So while you might want to give the ISI the benefit of the doubt it's clear that President Obama does not.

Nor can we expect intelligence officials to reveal everything. Pakistan has come a long way from the days when it sent mufti-clad soldiers across the LoC in plain sight of U.N. and international observers. For decades every time Pakistan was accused its officials asked for evidence. When it was provided nothing happened except that what Pakistan learned was applied to make the next incursion more deniable. After so many decades of screwing around Pakistan will have to work hard if it wants to regain the innocent-until-proven-guilty standard that many other nations still merit in international affairs.

until you can provide any evidence, we will remain innocent until proven guilty

you dont have any

and we dont care about NYT articles...this is the same paper that toed the US line regarding WMDs in Iraq (which were NEVER found)
 
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headley himself stated that the State/ISI was NOT involved in recruiting him or others

he was the one doing recce missions there, while being on the payroll (informant) of US DEA/FBI/NIA

no solid proof exists - which is why the investigation failed to go forward


indians should be asking more questions regarding the killing of Hemant Karkare....many in india wanted him silenced, using Pakistan as a scape-goat...its a known fact, even his wife has gone public about this

NIA???:o::o:

solid proofs are there.... do you think that US, Britain and other countries will be convinced without any proof?... this is not a local criminal case to show the proof to public.
 
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Sorry Oz, thanks for the clarification.


until you can provide any evidence, we will remain innocent until proven guilty -
Annnnd that's the attitude that has to change, that Pakistan won't look inside its own underwear but asks others to prove it dirty instead, as if the smell alone isn't enough.

and we dont care about NYT articles...this is the same paper that toed the US line regarding WMDs in Iraq (which were NEVER found)
see "Iraq loses control of chemical weapons depot to ISIS militants". Sure, people said the WMDs "were never found" when the U.S. invaded but suddenly when ISIS invades it turns out they were there all along! (These were likely weapons U.N. teams sequestered before the 2003 invasion.)

I have plenty of criticisms of the NYT but my opinion that this article accurately represents the assessment of the Obama Administration is unchanged.
 
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You have a point. At a certain level of examination, you have a valid point. It breaks down, however, on closer examination.

There is no denying that when the due process of law is taken into account, and the rules of evidence are taken into account, it is difficult (not impossible) to prove that
  1. The Bombay killings were done by an organised Pakistani gang;
  2. The gang was managed by an individual who can be, and has been identified;
  3. The individual belongs to the LeT, and the head of the successor organisation of the LeT is still active and preaching the same hate message;
  4. The LeT has received logistic, communications and training support from apparently military sources of some kind, although it cannot be established that the military entities are actually part of the ISI.
Sure, when these two apply, due process of law and the rules of evidence, it is difficult to prove any of this. Is this really the extent of your argument? I think not, unless I have grossly misunderstood your stand. But let us take it in the limited sense first, and assume that this is the extent of your argument.

In my humble opinion, this is comparing apples with oranges, to compare what happened with a normal law and order incident, or with a violent crime of any sort. It was not through the due process of law that the authorities in Pakistan acted on other occasions, occasions for which we have Pakistani testimony in bushelfuls. And it was not through the rules of evidence that these actions were established and proved. Now we have two ways of proceeding in matters like this: we can assume that everything, past, present and future, is one intermingled skein of thread, and treat it like that, everything is connected, so everything can be cited. Or we can decide that each incident is to be taken independent of any other incident, occurring before it or after, and seek to find the roots of every single matter independently.

I believe you have already made a choice, and put our discussion on well-worn tram-lines, by raising the question of 1971.

If that is correct, that leaves me free to point out that collusion by the Pakistani state with non-state actors started in 1947, not in 2008. It was repeated in 1965, six years before 1971. There was NO action by the Indian state of a similar nature, aimed at Pakistan or its people or its territory. Not unless you count the arguments over the placement of border outposts in the Rann of Kutch as equivalent to either Akbar Khan being commissioned to lead raiders armed by the Pakistani Army into the Kashmir Valley as what has been called kabalis, or to the Pakistani Army's landing of commandos in Kashmir in 1965 who were tasked to act as members of the public and carry out acts of violence against Indian institutions posing as natives of Kashmir.

It was never about the due processes of law on the Pakistani side. It was not due to the rules of evidence that her role was brought into the open, but the frank writings and publications of authorised persons and key players in these incidents, people who were uniformly loyal and patriotic Pakistanis.

So why, in this case, which, by the rules of the discussion that you yourself have set, is connected to earlier cases, and may be connected to later cases, should you insist on the due process of law and the rules of evidence? Unless it is to prove that using these, nothing can be established?

Of course you are right. Nothing can be established, at the moment, on the four points enumerated above. But I submit that you are already on very thin ice, and I submit that it is not a well-thought through position that you have taken.

At the time that the raid on Kashmir took place, all important sources of information and opinion in Pakistan were at pains to say that nothing had been done with the collusion of state entities, or at the instigation of the political leadership at the highest levels. It was only later that with the publications of Akbar Khan's book, or Major R. G. Brown's memoirs, or Tariq Ali's Clash of Fundamentalisms, that these incidents, to some extent already admitted by Pakistan by her actions during the meeting of the UN Commission on the Plebiscite, were authenticated, and that we came to know that these were carefully organised acts of military intervention, not spontaneous uprisings of citizens.

The decision to send in commandos was not admitted at the time of the 65 conflict by Pakistan, and it was only with subsequent publications and testimonials by prominent Pakistanis that we came to know what had transpired internally.

In 1999, things happened on the northern sector, which at first were blandly denied by Pakistan as being populist violent reactions to Indian institutions in Kashmir. Your Army chief, and later the head of your state, denied it so many times that when he finally admitted something like the truth, it seemed incongruous. It was only later that we got to know from Pakistani sources that these were soldiers of the Northern Light Infantry. Only later, but we did get to know, thanks to the frankness and honesty of Pakistanis themselves.

Are you entirely sure that your confident assertions will not be demolished by an authoritative source from Pakistan, a source even more convincing than the arrested terrorist, or the spy who identified topographic features while in the role of a US agent, or the voice recordings that have been supplied to the Pakistani authorities, or the statements of your own GEO TV team that traced the assassin back to his village of origin?

Huzoor, to answer your question as to why I insist on due process.. Ill state that I mean it from an Indian PoV. The whole frustration and drama over handing over dossiers and requests has to be seen from both sides. For Pakistan and its establishment, it means(and Im sure it was done) admitting that a gang of its spies went overboard(much like junior commanders in Kargil) and made an over zealous construing of established intent by the superiors. Just as Kargil ended up being the effort of Musharraf and his cabal(who kept the whole thing secret from most of the Army itself and to an extent Nawaz as well.. although his status as a ignorant nincompoop in this subject would ensure that even if he was shown the whole shifting sand model he would not know what its about and be more interested in Lunch), it is very likely that there is a section of officers both in Pakmil and ISI that may have thought up 26/11..and once that was found out, the officers and their op were likely "buried".

My whole post was focused on the idea that somehow the entire frustration shown regarding the delaying of the trial or prosecution of 26/11 is pointless unless actual pressure that as @Solomon2 puts it; remove the "innocent till proven guilty" in a court and neutrality where it can be proven.

As to why I am so insistent(and Ill state this as only on my word which I hope you might take) as to why the ISI as a whole or even on a majority would have zilch idea on the event, I spent a lot of time on the 26/11 incident in a personal investigative query using social links and had a few chats with the relevant folks(including an in and out Lashkar fellow). Where these people were able to give indications on Mullah Omar's on and off whereabouts(as in where he used to be after 2001) and where he is kept.. they were also insistent that 26/11 was an asset job.. and was just another "Kargil" in in intelligence terms(albeit this time by the lower ranks) .

On the greater subject of state support for terror, one has to understand that it is NOT JUST the establishment that supports extremist networks in Pakistan. A lot of politicians, bureaucrats and businessmen provide tacit support, handling , movement, connections with the extremists including the Taliban, LeT,LeJ,Jundullah...and so on.
Even after the Establishment has severed connections with them these people continue their relationships and use their political power and influence to keep such people thriving.. because when the time comes these terror groups.. well.. provide terror for use against their enemies.

There is a very good reason I posted that very complex Rubiks cube as an example to Pakistan.

@Oscar


Why do you keep repeating that line that only Indians are connecting ISI with LeT, and that that too may have come out of interrogation under mysterious circumstances when facts are completely to the contrary? Headly was in the US when he got caught, how did India extract information from him when Indians didn't even have access to him? You do know that he gave up his connection to the ISI (with names of his handlers in the organization) even before Indians got to him in Chicago, right?

And what about all other nations pointing out not only ISI's collusion but even its handling of LeT operatives? Even the French!

Are you trying to say that all other countries liars and only ISI the angel amongst us?

Read my last post and understand it from a "pressure" PoV. The United States may have gotten to headly, but Kasab.. who is prime suspect remains in India... that is excuse enough for Pakistan to put pressure on the local prosecution and also keep them locked in circles.

The rest is already answered, as I have said a millionth before.. learn to be less reactionary on posts and you'll learn to read between the lines.
 
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I have to say that you are very, very convincing. This needs a bit of a ponder.

My compliments on a very impressive marshalling of your arguments.
 
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Annnnd that's the attitude that has to change, that Pakistan won't look inside its own underwear but asks others to prove it dirty instead, as if the smell alone isn't enough.

when there is actionable intel we take action - case in point, ongoing ops against TTP and their affiliates, which have been going on for some time and led to some bit catches

i hope you guys do more to counter the rise of ISIS/ISIL as well as groups in Libya that are tearing it apart....given that your actions led to the rise of these groups



"Iraq loses control of chemical weapons depot to ISIS militants". Sure, people said the WMDs "were never found" when the U.S. invaded but suddenly when ISIS invades it turns out they were there all along! (These were likely weapons U.N. teams sequestered before the 2003 invasion.)

the US sold some chemical weapons to the Saddam Hussein when he was their ally....maybe these are those
 
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