I'm not considered son of soil: Musharraf

[SQ8]

Mujhee bhagoraa kahaaa - There must be War for this insolence !

Khair on a serious note - Isn't it obvious why the Immigrants from Kashmir or from Eastern-Punjab are never considered as Immigrants & not even a single racial slur is thrown against them ?

Hint : We neither called ourselves Immigrants nor let any other call us One !



To be fair the Urdu Speakers are guilty of some of this too !

I've got very close relatives who came from Jammu & the adjoining areas where out of a family of dozens only 2-3 people made out alive to Pakistan whilst the rest were cut along the way !

Others were lucky enough to be in the areas that became Pakistan for either studies or business purposes; their families back home in Kashmir were not - Many didn't make it !

The stories of Punjabis from Eastern Punjab are just as heart wrenching & stomach turning !

None of them....none of them, as far as I know or as far as I've heard or seen or listened to, have ever tried to score a Brownie Point by mentioning this !

None of them have used 'We paid for Pakistan with our blood & we made Pakistan' as a means to brag !

Some of the Urdu Speakers are guilty of that !

The Politicians from that Community most certainly !

It does not for a second excuse anyone - Punjabi or Otherwise - to say the unthinkably shameless thing of asking the Muhajirs to go back or to differentiate between Brother & Brother !

There is no Local...no Immigrant & anyone saying otherwise is a basterd who pisses over everything that Islam taught us & what Quaid-e-Azam commanded us !

But the above does put some things into perspective why we - Kashmiris from Maqbooza Kashmir - or we Punjabis from Eastern Punjab, are or were never called Immigrants or never stood for this & why some Urdu Speakers deliberately identify themselves as Muhajir & why others call them as such & why the filllth then starts flowing from each others mouth on this !

And mind you I or anyone else have never stopped being a Kashmiri in Punjab or a Pukhtoon in Punjab but this absence of a false sense of superiority or the scoring of Brownie Points or having some bragging rights have ensured that Punjab has evolved a more pluralistic sense of identity when compared with the other Provinces !

And that is precisely why I know that I'm a Kashmiri & others know that I'm a Kashmiri but they & I both know that I'm also very proud to call myself a Punjab because no one, not the natives, not the immigrants in the years after '47-48 ever made each other mutually exclusive to each other !

The issue with our racial divides have more to do with power than with identity. A lot of the Urdu Speaking migrants were fairly educated(Central N.India was the seat of power.. and ipso facto..more educated lot concentrated around that area) and hence took up many of the early Bureaucratic posts along with getting successful businesses up and running. Unfortunately, this did not go down well with the feudal that existed in Pakistan.. and what has followed since then is simply a case of the Chaudhry/Wadera vs the Seth/Sahab at various levels. The common folk(middle class) had little to do with this problem and had/have no problem in integrating..but are easy cannon fodder for the wars of the more elite.

There are various accounts of when the call for Mohajir started.. but as such it was Bhutto's initial pro sindhi stance and attempt at Sindhization in karachi that started this political awareness(previously the migrants tended to vote for JI)..which was exacerbated by the Land and Transport Mafia from KP. The Migrants themselves were looking to ensure Karachi remained their turf...and the problem rolled into the fireball it was. You or I considering ourselves who were are is irrelevant when elements do exist that play the ethnic card. As long as the ethnic card exists (and it does so within our neighbours to the east and west as well) there will always be triggers to tick people like you or me off..and add fuel to the fire.

Pakistans fall will be its Feudal/Mullah society element... and you and I will watch it helplessly.

 

[Panther 57]

Musharraf's era being ten times better than this one is a failed argument in my view. People say Ayub Khans era was the best in Pakistan yet through introspection it shows that not only did the era lead to a greater divide between the poor and the rich.. it was also the era in which hatred and divide was sown amongst our eastern wing...shall we than still be happy about 21 rich families or the seeds that led to the bloody divide in 71?

Mistakes and errors are committed by everyone and due to this reasons we all are humans and not divine. Only Divine is perfect. Thus, when looking at human's work it is necessary to see it in totality mistakes and achievements. And when we see that, apparently politicians have been the most to err. Ayub alone cannot be blamed for ultimate debacle of 71. Yes he should shoulder some of it. What we reaped in 71 was result of injustice done by bureaucrats and politicians. What ultimately happened in 71 was also result of a politicians influence on him. It in no way absolves Yahya of his responsibilities. These politicians in the name of democrazy are fooling the masses and masses are naive enough to get fooled; again and again.

See what this democrazy has given us in last six years. Inflation, high rate of crime, increased taxation, entrapment in IMF AGAIN and further going into the whirlpool, Low forex reserves, distribution of public money with impunity at will, blocked roads, bigger motorcades, etc. A never ending list.

The issue with our racial divides have more to do with power than with identity. A lot of the Urdu Speaking migrants were fairly educated(Central N.India was the seat of power.. and ipso facto..more educated lot concentrated around that area) and hence took up many of the early Bureaucratic posts along with getting successful businesses up and running. Unfortunately, this did not go down well with the feudal that existed in Pakistan.. and what has followed since then is simply a case of the Chaudhry/Wadera vs the Seth/Sahab at various levels. The common folk(middle class) had little to do with this problem and had/have no problem in integrating..but are easy cannon fodder for the wars of the more elite.

There are various accounts of when the call for Mohajir started.. but as such it was Bhutto's initial pro sindhi stance and attempt at Sindhization in karachi that started this political awareness(previously the migrants tended to vote for JI)..which was exacerbated by the Land and Transport Mafia from KP. The Migrants themselves were looking to ensure Karachi remained their turf...and the problem rolled into the fireball it was. You or I considering ourselves who were are is irrelevant when elements do exist that play the ethnic card. As long as the ethnic card exists (and it does so within our neighbours to the east and west as well) there will always be triggers to tick people like you or me off..and add fuel to the fire.

Pakistans fall will be its Feudal/Mullah society element... and you and I will watch it helplessly.

very rightly pointed out. I will put my two cents to it, Zia also contributed to this fiasco where on one hand he raised what has become a nuisance now and on other he continued supporting induction of people from a particular ethnicity in public service and sector, irrespective of their competence.

 

[SQ8]

Mistakes and errors are committed by everyone and due to this reasons we all are humans and not divine. Only Divine is perfect. Thus, when looking at human's work it is necessary to see it in totality mistakes and achievements. And when we see that, apparently politicians have been the most to err. Ayub alone cannot be blamed for ultimate debacle of 71. Yes he should shoulder some of it. What we reaped in 71 was result of injustice done by bureaucrats and politicians. What ultimately happened in 71 was also result of a politicians influence on him. It in no way absolves Yahya of his responsibilities. These politicians in the name of democrazy are fooling the masses and masses are naive enough to get fooled; again and again.

See what this democrazy has given us in last six years. Inflation, high rate of crime, increased taxation, entrapment in IMF AGAIN and further going into the whirlpool, Low forex reserves, distribution of public money with impunity at will, blocked roads, bigger motorcades, etc. A never ending list.

Thats just an effort to whitewash the dictators or downplay their role. If Ayub or Supposedly fooled into doing all that then our military leaders are even bigger nincompoops than the political lot and are not even fit to lead the Army let alone the nation.

 

[Slayer786]

The public is stupid.. however, if the person who kept claiming "main ne keh diya hai, hojaye ga" as being the fullstop for the buck could not have the vision nor the intelligence to anticipate the public response and its requirements..then it falls to the leader. After all, if a shephard leads his flock into a wolves den.. do you blame the shephard or the flock?

Musharraf's era being ten times better than this one is a failed argument in my view. People say Ayub Khans era was the best in Pakistan yet through introspection it shows that not only did the era lead to a greater divide between the poor and the rich.. it was also the era in which hatred and divide was sown amongst our eastern wing...shall we than still be happy about 21 rich families or the seeds that led to the bloody divide in 71?

The nation that shudders at that thought is a nation that does not want that thought. Pakistan is going to delve further into extremism and intolerance and there is nothing you and I can do about it. That is what the people want and are ok with.

Aray bhai to tell me which govt was good. The govt of Zardari who just finished. The govts of Nawaz and Benazir in the 1990s. Or Gen Zia in the 1980s. Or Zulfiqar Bhutto in the 1970s.
Which one do you think did the best work for Pakistan?
I am a little confused as all seem to be much worse than Musharraf era.

 

[SQ8]

Aray bhai to tell me which govt was good. The govt of Zardari who just finished. The govts of Nawaz and Benazir in the 1990s. Or Gen Zia in the 1980s. Or Zulfiqar Bhutto in the 1970s.
Which one do you think did the best work for Pakistan?
I am a little confused as all seem to be much worse than Musharraf era.

Which government was allowed to complete its tenure.. turn it over to another.. they complete.. turn it over to another? System chalne diya hee nahin hai tu kya system se expectations hain?
Its like the PAF shelving the JF-17 after the first crash..

 

[genmirajborgza786]

Aray bhai to tell me which govt was good. The govt of Zardari who just finished. The govts of Nawaz and Benazir in the 1990s. Or Gen Zia in the 1980s. Or Zulfiqar Bhutto in the 1970s.
Which one do you think did the best work for Pakistan?
I am a little confused as all seem to be much worse than Musharraf era.

Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto's govt no two thoughts on that. It was a blessing which we as a nation dint let to flourish & in the bargain we Lost siachen ( along with the peace & life of Karachi which just doesn't wants to come back), while on the other hand Got a monster that just doesn't stop killing, we Lost a potential friend in the former Soviet Union(one that could have proven to be our most benefitting one that is, if you understand geo-politics) & in the bargain we Got the sole super power next door drone-ing his way through our country (while we Lost our religious harmony of which used to be proud of)
while we GOT the gift of sectarian violence which just doesn't seems to die
now you be the judge

 

[W.11]

Which government was allowed to complete its tenure.. turn it over to another.. they complete.. turn it over to another? System chalne diya hee nahin hai tu kya system se expectations hain?
Its like the PAF shelving the JF-17 after the first crash..

wasn't PPP allowed to complete its five year period?

mere bhai system 1988 se 1999 tk nahi chalne dya gya?, system 1968 se 1977 tak nahi chalne dya gya? what about the system from 2008 se 2013 tk?

turkey me konsa system itna chalne dya gya, turkey me army ne take over nahi kya? isn't turkey performing head and shoulders above Pakistan?

concept of free media introduced in dictator period

concept of completing parliament term introduced by dictator

concept of admitting the election results and not trying to over throw the govt introduced in dictator period

concept of local government introduced in dictator period

system koi bhi ko woh chalu system hona chahye, this democracy under PPP and PMLN and all lota parties is not a chalu system

why change dictator ship when it was producing million times more results then democracy

nahi turn over kerna chahye tha dictator system ko plain and simple

 

[root]

LOL@ Indians trying to make fun of musharraf by calling him commando in a sarcastic way..Musharraf is now old man....We have soldiers to take care of Indians ( I recall there was some commando action when India couldnt find the heads of their soldiers )

 

[SQ8]

wasn't PPP allowed to complete its five year period?

mere bhai system 1988 se 1999 tk nahi chalne dya gya?, system 1968 se 1977 tak nahi chalne dya gya? what about the system from 2008 se 2013 tk?

turkey me konsa system itna chalne dya gya, turkey me army ne take over nahi kya? isn't turkey performing head and shoulders above Pakistan?

concept of free media introduced in dictator period

concept of completing parliament term introduced by dictator

concept of admitting the election results and not trying to over throw the govt introduced in dictator period

concept of local government introduced in dictator period

system koi bhi ko woh chalu system hona chahye, this democracy under PPP and PMLN and all lota parties is not a chalu system

why change dictator ship when it was producing million times more results then democracy

nahi turn over kerna chahye tha dictator system ko plain and simple

Do you understand the concept of a system? You let it run instead of coming in and interfering with it. all these periods you cite was a restart every time. M.A Jinnah would roll in his grave over the logic you use. None of the so called achievements you have quoted including free media have anything to do with Musharraf.. they would happen anyway.. the world was changing all around you.

You are quoting Turkey without realizing that Turkey isnt full of Waderas and Jagirdars who wanted control. When the turkish military did its coup.. it was in the barracks within a year.. Not grabbing a seat and becoming Khalifa for ten years on end. Baat karte hain system ki...
Its simple.. those whose houses were built during Musharrafs rule are the only ones kissing arse..Nobody else wants him back. This so called Mohajir qaum of which you and I are part of enjoyed power .. and so they are there to buck up. Nobody gives a hoot about national institutions, accountability in governance.. or democracy for that matter. Be it Bangladesh, Balochistan.. or otherwise.. as long as my stomach is full.. the rest of the country can go to hell is the attitude.

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

Musharaf is a supporter of terrorist party MQM. Enough said.

 

[W.11]

Do you understand the concept of a system? You let it run instead of coming in and interfering with it. all these periods you cite was a restart every time. M.A Jinnah would roll in his grave over the logic you use. None of the so called achievements you have quoted including free media have anything to do with Musharraf.. they would happen anyway.. the world was changing all around you.

You are quoting Turkey without realizing that Turkey isnt full of Waderas and Jagirdars who wanted control. When the turkish military did its coup.. it was in the barracks within a year.. Not grabbing a seat and becoming Khalifa for ten years on end. Baat karte hain system ki...
Its simple.. those whose houses were built during Musharrafs rule are the only ones kissing arse..Nobody else wants him back. This so called Mohajir qaum of which you and I are part of enjoyed power .. and so they are there to buck up. Nobody gives a hoot about national institutions, accountability in governance.. or democracy for that matter. Be it Bangladesh, Balochistan.. or otherwise.. as long as my stomach is full.. the rest of the country can go to hell is the attitude.

waah bhai waah!!

for how many years USA, india, china etc etc countries had local government system? don't say like hey in 2000 decade the concept of local government system came

please don't say the concept of free media was newly introduced in the world when musharraf came?

LOL!! man

the only wadera which has not been in power has been a military dictator, zia wasn't a wadera just like musharraf

im not even trying to bring mohajirism here, im just plainly arguing about the 'system' you are talking about in your post

1969 to 1978 is a very long time, almost a decade, similarly 1988 to 1999 is a very long time to evaluate the so called system

2008 till 2013 is also a very stable no interference time to gauge the merits of the so called system

it wasn't like what happened in egypt that the democracy failed for one year and was over thrown

and lets be realistic when ever dictatorship came, people celebrated

 

[Slayer786]

Which government was allowed to complete its tenure.. turn it over to another.. they complete.. turn it over to another? System chalne diya hee nahin hai tu kya system se expectations hain?
Its like the PAF shelving the JF-17 after the first crash..

The problem here is that now we are speculating. What if? Now we all know what type of corruption was going on during those times in the 1990s. Both Nawaz and Benazir were looting the country dry.
No one is saying that Musharraf era was the best. But it certainly was not the worst.

 

[Slayer786]

Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto's govt no two thoughts on that. It was a blessing which we as a nation dint let to flourish & in the bargain we Lost siachen ( along with the peace & life of Karachi which just doesn't wants to come back), while on the other hand Got a monster that just doesn't stop killing, we Lost a potential friend in the former Soviet Union(one that could have proven to be our most benefitting one that is, if you understand geo-politics) & in the bargain we Got the sole super power next door drone-ing his way through our country (while we Lost our religious harmony of which used to be proud of)
while we GOT the gift of sectarian violence which just doesn't seems to die
now you be the judge

There are actually many ills during his rule. His economic policies brought the downfall of our business industry. He brought the ethnicity card to the fore. And from that time onwards every time a govt comes to power, that ethnicity is given jobs in the govt dept at the cost of other ethnicities.
Although he did have his moments and was a better PM than any in this generation. But he was also not perfect. He made a very costly mistake of making a religious General a COAS. And the funny thing is that he brought Islamization to Pakistan, while himself a socialist.

In his time there was a brutal suppresion of Balochs.

The 1970s operation in Balochistan was a five-year military conflict in Balochistan, the largest province of Pakistan, between the Pakistan Army and Baloch separatists and tribesmen that lasted from 1973 to 1978.

The operation began in 1973 shortly after then-Pakistani President Zulfikar Ali Bhutto dismissed the elected provincial government of Balochistan, on the pretext that arms had been discovered in the Iraqi Embassy ostensibly for Baloch rebels. The ensuing protest against the dismissal of the duly elected government also led to calls for Balochistan's secession, met by Bhutto's ordering the Pakistan Army into the province.
The conflict took the lives of 3,300 Pakistani troops, 5,300 Baloch, and thousands of civilians. This period forms a pivotal chapter in the longstanding Balochistan conflict, and is often cited as creating deep divisions between Balochistan and Islamabad that persist to the current day.

Source: Wikileaks

 

[W.11]

The problem here is that now we are speculating. What if? Now we all know what type of corruption was going on during those times in the 1990s. Both Nawaz and Benazir were looting the country dry.
No one is saying that Musharraf era was the best. But it certainly was not the worst.

idealy it was not the best, but it was the best comparatively

 

[Panther 57]

Thats just an effort to whitewash the dictators or downplay their role. If Ayub or Supposedly fooled into doing all that then our military leaders are even bigger nincompoops than the political lot and are not even fit to lead the Army let alone the nation.

Unfortunately, they have proved that they have been better when it comes to KPIs in national interest