Illusion of victory: In the eyes of the media (September 1965)

[Foxtrot-Bravo]

You are intentionally beating about the bush.




ha ha..

Hum karein to Character Dheela hai !!

Hahaha, chalo yehe thk hai India ne b kar lia na '71 mai.

 

[Tipu7]

1965 Indo-Pak war:

Pakistani objective of war: Capture Kashmir.
Result: FAILED.

Indian objective of war: Defend Kashmir.
Result: ACHIEVED.

Results are clear.

Here you guys get sickly wrong.

You guys include skimishes in Kashmir to gain extra points. WAR OFFICALLY STARTED ON 6 th September ....... WHEN INDIA CROSSED INTERNATIONAL BORDERS.

Indian objective:
capture Lahore
capture sialkot.
Pakistan objectives:
To defend both

Result.......
India failed in both.
Kicked on itsa$$ really hard in skies..... never dared to launch a single sea based operation ........
On land, instead of capturing any thing value able, lost its territory own territory and ended up capturing few neighbouring villages despite of six times number advantage......

It's like....India attacked Pakistan but got it's soldiers receiving bullets in butt holes.......

Stupid morons ....... they include covert operations in full scale war...! Just to find a reason to justify red patches on their a$$es in Kashmir..... why India didn't faced mission Gibraltar face to face.....? Because those red patches were pretty sour......

And now they have started to claim that capturing Lahore was not their objective.....!!! Wao ........!

Attacking a major city from 3 directions with infantry+armor under the shades of air force.....

May be GUNNE CHOOPNE ae hon ge .......

If India attack now Pakistan for eliminating so called terrorists camps ...... I believe they will write history as, ........ Pakistan started war by attacking bombay.......!
Pakistan is evil aggressor.....!!!

 

[Areesh]

1965 Indo-Pak war:

Pakistani objective of war: Capture Kashmir.
Result: FAILED.

Indian objective of war: Defend Kashmir.
Result: ACHIEVED.

Results are clear.

Nice excuse to turn a stalemate into a victory.

 

[Sulman Badshah]

 

[niaz]

Propaganda is an essential part of warfare, especially to keep morale of the population high. Churchill excelled at this and managed to keep British public in high spirits during the dark days on Battle of Britain when British army was losing battles on all fronts. Ignominious retreat of the British Expeditionary force from France was presented as the heroic evacuation of Dunkirk!

I was not in Pakistan at that time but as a young passionate Pakistani student in UK, was equally exuberant about the brave deeds of our soldiers. However 50 years after the event is a good time that we be honest with ourselves and analyse 65 wars without looking thru the kaleidoscope of patriotism.

Prelude to the 65 war was the Rann of Kutch skirmish where Pak forces managed to gain the upper hand. It was followed up by the Operation Gibraltar. Without doubt the war was started by Pakistan with the aim of liberating Kashmir by force.

There were two miscalculations. First was the assumption that Kashmiris will rise up in support of Pakistani volunteers and the second that the fighting will remain limited to the disputed territory of Kashmir. As it happened both the assumptions were based on incorrect presumptions.

How could Ayyub Khan and Pak Army High Command as well as the Foreign Office headed by the super intelligent ZA Bhutto presume that Indians will quietly give up Kashmir without enlarging the conflict to the international border?

All the Kashmiris that I came across in London soon after the war said that there were as many Kashmiris who preferred India as there were those who supported Pakistan; primarily because of Sh Abdulla's preference for India. Silent majority of the Kashmiris really wanted an ‘Independent’ Kashmir. Therefore our assumption that occupied Kashmiri Muslims will revolt against India was extremely naive.

Leaving individual valiant actions aside, at the end of the day, there was no clear winner. From the Indians point of view; since Pakistan failed to attain her objective of liberating Kashmir, India won. Pakistan claims victory on the basis that despite 1:4 quantitative edges all Indian attacks were successfully thwarted.

In my personal opinion, PAF decidedly won war in the air. However on the ground failure to take Akhnur after Pak armour had crossed the Tawi river and because our 1st Armoured Div. was bogged down at Khem Kharan; Indians are justified to say that they won. However end result was the status quo and war ended in stale mate.

I neither worry nor care about the Indian side, on Pakistani front I would say that our soldiers performed admirably but were let down by the incompetent leadership. Gen Musa & the GHQ should have been severely reprimanded for leaving Lahore sector unprotected and Major Gen. Nasir Ahmed Khan of the 1st Armoured Div. should have been tried for cowardice in the face of the enemy. Nothing of the sort happened. We had an army of Lions led by the Jackals, but that is Pakistan for you.

 

[Psychic]

Battle of Britain when British army was losing battles on all fronts.

Correction: Battle of Britain was fought entirely in the air and RAF was not the one who was always losing.

 

[Star Wars]

Propaganda is an essential part of warfare, especially to keep morale of the population high. Churchill excelled at this and managed to keep British public in high spirits during the dark days on Battle of Britain when British army was losing battles on all fronts. Ignominious retreat of the British Expeditionary force from France was presented as the heroic evacuation of Dunkirk!

I was not in Pakistan at that time but as a young passionate Pakistani student in UK, was equally exuberant about the brave deeds of our soldiers. However 50 years after the event is a good time that we be honest with ourselves and analyse 65 wars without looking thru the kaleidoscope of patriotism.

Prelude to the 65 war was the Rann of Kutch skirmish where Pak forces managed to gain the upper hand. It was followed up by the Operation Gibraltar. Without doubt the war was started by Pakistan with the aim of liberating Kashmir by force.

There were two miscalculations. First was the assumption that Kashmiris will rise up in support of Pakistani volunteers and the second that the fighting will remain limited to the disputed territory of Kashmir. As it happened both the assumptions were based on incorrect presumptions.

How could Ayyub Khan and Pak Army High Command as well as the Foreign Office headed by the super intelligent ZA Bhutto presume that Indians will quietly give up Kashmir without enlarging the conflict to the international border?

All the Kashmiris that I came across in London soon after the war said that there were as many Kashmiris who preferred India as there were those who supported Pakistan; primarily because of Sh Abdulla's preference for India. Silent majority of the Kashmiris really wanted an ‘Independent’ Kashmir. Therefore our assumption that occupied Kashmiri Muslims will revolt against India was extremely naive.

Leaving individual valiant actions aside, at the end of the day, there was no clear winner. From the Indians point of view; since Pakistan failed to attain her objective of liberating Kashmir, Indian won. Pakistan claims victory on the basis that despite 1:4 quantitative edges all Indian attacks were successfully thwarted.

In my personal opinion, PAF decidedly won war in the air. However on the grounds failure to take Akhnur after Pak armour had crossed the Tawi river was and because our 1st Armoured Div. was bogged down at Khem Kharan; Indians are justified to say that they won. However end result was the status quo and war ended in stale mate.

I neither worry nor care about the Indian side, on Pakistani front I would say that our soldiers performed admirably but were let down by the incompetent leadership. Gen Musa & the GHQ should have been severely reprimanded for leaving Lahore sector unprotected and Major Gen. Nasir Ahmed Khan of the 1st Armoured Div. should have been tried for cowardice in the face of the enemy. Nothing of the sort happened. We had an army of Lions led by the Jackals, but that is Pakistan for you.

I have a question, Did PA not recon the Indian side of Kashmir before sending in Infiltrators ? Why did PA not attempt to create an support network inside Kashmir for the said infiltrators before sending them in ? From what i know, they were captured or killed pretty quickly by the IA which indicates they almost went in blind...

 

[The Great One]

A 22 day event not even causing nation-wide mobilization and mass conscription is hardly a 'WAR', more like a over-glorified skirmish.

 

[hkdas]

that is border village.

Not just a deserted Police Station but we captured the whole Khem Karn town dude.

Khem Karn is a desert village on the border.

Could, would, should,.....fool does what fool says, Pakistan has been celebrating 6th September defence day since 1966 and not without reason, however, it's you Indians who are being made a fool to celebrate after 50 years something you never achieved.

shame on you pakistanis to celebrate on sept. 6. because in 1965 pakistan army was the offenders. they started the war by attacking india and the war end up with pakistan army defending their nation from indian army
lol.. in west Indian air force's objective was only provide air support and air denial role in indian air space.

however, in West it was a different story where PAF was hitting Indian targets as late as 17th December.

lol.. a pakistani joker...
pakistani forces surrendered in dec. 16. and your are saying PAF was attacking india in dec 17 after the war formally ended??? lol, from were you learn the history??

during the last days pakistan air force was unable to fly jets... even in indian navy's attack on karachi. PAF was afraid of attacking indian navy. PAF refused to provide support to PN during indian navy attack on karachi harbor.

 

[dray]

Here you guys get sickly wrong.

You guys include skimishes in Kashmir to gain extra points. WAR OFFICALLY STARTED ON 6 th September ....... WHEN INDIA CROSSED INTERNATIONAL BORDERS.

Indian objective:
capture Lahore
capture sialkot.
Pakistan objectives:
To defend both

Result.......
India failed in both.
Kicked on itsa$$ really hard in skies..... never dared to launch a single sea based operation ........
On land, instead of capturing any thing value able, lost its territory own territory and ended up capturing few neighbouring villages despite of six times number advantage......

It's like....India attacked Pakistan but got it's soldiers receiving bullets in butt holes.......

Stupid morons ....... they include covert operations in full scale war...! Just to find a reason to justify red patches on their a$$es in Kashmir..... why India didn't faced mission Gibraltar face to face.....? Because those red patches were pretty sour......

And now they have started to claim that capturing Lahore was not their objective.....!!! Wao ........!

Attacking a major city from 3 directions with infantry+armor under the shades of air force.....

May be GUNNE CHOOPNE ae hon ge .......

If India attack now Pakistan for eliminating so called terrorists camps ...... I believe they will write history as, ........ Pakistan started war by attacking bombay.......!
Pakistan is evil aggressor.....!!!

That 3 direction was to spread your attack thin, it was a successful strategy to defend Kashmir.

Nice excuse to turn a stalemate into a victory.

You wanted to capture Kashmir, we wanted to defend Kashmir, the war resulted into a stalemate.....that means you failed to capture Kashmir, and we were successful in defending Kashmir. Which part of it is difficult to understand?

 

[truthseeker2010]

Also sea ..........

there was no major or direct action between the two navies.

not city, but the police station was captured by indian forces.

really
Air incapability, Air denial, Air parity, Air superiority, Air supremacy, which one PAF successfully done over indian air space??? none. of them.
leave indian air space, PAF was unable to attain air denial over their own air space. pakistan was under constant attack by indian AF till the end of the war.

you are advised to read the book of your own author,
PAF gunnned-down our 35 jets in 2 days : Air Marshal Kumar

 

[Windjammer]

lol.. a pakistani joker...
pakistani forces surrendered in dec. 16. and your are saying PAF was attacking india in dec 17 after the war formally ended??? lol, from were you learn the history??

during the last days pakistan air force was unable to fly jets... even in indian navy's attack on karachi. PAF was afraid of attacking indian navy. PAF refused to provide support to PN during indian navy attack on karachi harbor.

I am no Pakistani joker but you are obviously an Indian idiot and a complete one at that.
Now let me burst your Bharti bubble that's just full of hot air.

The last air battle of 1971 war between PAF and IAF took place on 17th December. The encounter involved a humble PAF F-86 Sabre against a Supersonic MIG-21 of the IAF.
Flt Lt. Maqsood Amir emerged the victorious pilot when he shot down the MIG-21, No C 116 through a missile attack.
The Indian pilot was captured after ejecting from his stricken aircraft.

And if you have problem digesting that, here is a picture to lighten up your dark mind , which is nothing but the victim of your own propaganda machinery.

 

[niaz]

Correction: Battle of Britain was fought entirely in the air and RAF was not the one who was always losing.

I mean to say that Britain had lost near all the land battles with Germany when Battle of Britain was going on. At that time there no was silver lining on the horizon but Churchill kept a cheerful note in his speeches. On one occasion after looking at the carnage caused by the German bombs, Churchill remarked " At this rate Germany would take10 years to destroy less than a quarter of London".

Let not forget that RAF was virtually on its knees and could only recover because Luftwaffa switched to bombing cities instead of the air bases.

I have a question, Did PA not recon the Indian side of Kashmir before sending in Infiltrators ? Why did PA not attempt to create an support network inside Kashmir for the said infiltrators before sending them in ? From what i know, they were captured or killed pretty quickly by the IA which indicates they almost went in blind...

Gen Peerzada’s niece was married to a friend of mine and I chanced to chat with him a few years after he had retired.

Lt Gen SG MM Peerzada, was Principal staff Officer of the infamous Gen Yahya Khan during 1971 war. Naturally topic was the two wars with India.

He was reluctant to talk about 1971, perhaps because Gen Yahya was still alive. His only comment was that Mujib Ur Rahman was in fact a traitor and had been in touch with India and Agartala Conspiracy was a real conspiracy against Pakistan. Additionally that East Pakistan war was forced upon Pak Army due to intransigence of both ZA Bhutto and Sh. Mujib.

About 1965 war he commented that Foreign Minister Bhutto, who was then one of the Ayub Khan’s favourites, had assured him that India would not dare cross the international border. Pakistan Army at that time had only about 10 or 11 divisions with one & half Armoured Div. ( 6th Arm'd Div was under strength); since Pakistan expected Indian thrust south of Sutlej, Lahore/Wagah border was lightly defended.

It is water under the bridge; no use belabouring the point; suffice to say that Pakistan overestimated support from the Kashmiris;


I have seen a post questioning Pakistan's right to celebrate Defence of Pakistan Day. Most celebrations especially religious one are based largely on myths anyway. Besides, it is up to the Pakistanis which day or occasion and / or why they would like to celebrate.

There was a time when at least in Punjab, people had many chances to make merry. I remember coming to Lahore as a teenager in 1956 and having great fun at Mela Chiraghan (Lamp festival aka Madhu Laal Hussain mela) at Baghbanpura near Shalimar gardens. It used to be a 3 day afffair but it slowly become low key. Then there was the famous kite festival during Besant which has also lost its lustre.

Rightly or wrongly, most of my countrymen are of the opinion that Pakistan won 1965 war. Let them not begrudge this enjoyment. Since the advent of Taliban, Pakistanis don’t have many occasions to have fun and feel good.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

View attachment 252911

Is this picture from "Alice in Wonderland" ?

 

[Star Wars]

Gen Peerzada’s niece was married to a friend of mine and I chanced to chat with him a few years after he had retired.

Lt Gen SG MM Peerzada, was Principal staff Officer of the infamous Gen Yahya Khan during 1971 war. Naturally topic was the two wars with India.

He was reluctant to talk about 1971, perhaps because Gen Yahya was still alive. His only comment was that Mujib Ur Rahman was in fact a traitor and had been in touch with India and Agartala Conspiracy was a real conspiracy against Pakistan. Additionally that East Pakistan war was forced upon Pak Army due to intransigence of both ZA Bhutto and Sh. Mujib.

About 1965 war he commented that Foreign Minister Bhutto who was then one of the Ayub Khan’s favourites has assured him that India would not dare cross the international border. Pakistan Army at that time had only about 10 or 11 divisions with one & half Armoured Div. ( 6th Arm'd Div was under strength); since Pakistan expected Indian thrust south of Sutlej, Lahore/Wagah border was lightly defended.

It is water under the bridge; no use belabouring the point; suffice to say that Pakistan overestimated support from the Kashmiris;


I have seen a post questioning Pakistan's right to celebrate Defence of Pakistan Day. Most celebrations especially religious one are based largely on myths anyway. Besides, it is up to the Pakistanis which day or occasion and / or why they would like to celebrate.

There was a time when at least in Punjab, people had many chances to make merry. I remember coming to Lahore as a teenager in 1956 and having great fun at Mela Chiraghan (Lamp festival aka Madhu Laal Hussain mela) at Baghbanpura near Shalimar gardens. It used to be a 3 day afffair but it slowly become low key. Then there was the famous kite festival during Besant which has also lost its lustre.

Rightly or wrongly, most of my countrymen are of the opinion that Pakistan won 1965 war. Let them not begrudge this enjoyment. Since the advent of Taliban, Pakistanis don’t have many occasions to have fun and feel good.

I appreciate the detailed reply.... Wow you must be older than my dad