If the F/A 18 Super Hornet Wins the MMRCA

[TaimiKhan]

Benny....


The Fact is With Russian PAK FA Joining in 2020 and US' Hornets in 2014 ... It will be IAF and IAF all the Way in ASIAN Skies !!!!

When you already knew that, then why opening the thread and doing meaningless discussion.

Strange.

 

[deckingraj]

Sancho, nice post man....IMHO we should stay away from F-18 however assuming that we have choosen it, i have some doubt in your analysis....

I guess XiNiX means like this:

#1. The Strength : IAF vs PAF & IAF vs PLAAF

The first won't change much, because any MMRCA would just add to the advantage IAF already has over PAF. Against PAF the F18SH will have an advantage in BVR, but in WVR things will change especially if we keep in mind the numberical superiority of PLAAF.

Well i think we need to go a little deeper then that....F-18 will definitely put a seal on more F-16's for Pak, no??? I am expecting atleast this much from Babus to put up...Now it will depend what they(read PAF) will go after to counter MRCA deal, one way would have been to ask for more F-16's... Now if the money situation does not change PAF will have no option but to go for J-10's or whatever China offers(probably on soft loans).....

#2. The Edge : INDIA vs PAKISTAN

An advantage, because it adds strike capabilities to our forces, for SEAD, or preemptive strikes.

No doubt about it....

#3. The Relations of : Pakistan ( Getting F16s ) & USA ( Supplying F18s to INDIA )

The only point here is, that they might not get F18SH, but turn even more to Chinese fighters, which is not good for India imo. I prefer PAF having 36 x F18SH, than possibly 80, or even 100 x J10Bs.

My perception is different on this issue....The way i am looking at it, if this deal go through it will put a lid on any more F-16's or F-18's to Pak...Moreover whether they go for more F-16's or not they can always go for J-10's..If we go by reports there are plans to induct 150 of these fighters with first 36 by 2015.....However PAF has a long history with F-16's and given a choice they will like to stick with a proven platform on which they have decades of experience instead of a new platform in the form of J-10.....In short this deal will hurt Pak a little more then what it would have had we choosen lets say Rafael...

#4. The Asian Power Projection

Offensive against PLAAF? Difficult and depends on what weapons we could get (long range A2G missiles?).

We must keep in mind that even if you are in defensive mode you need to carry out missions inside Enemy Territory....With such a huge numerical difference you need a healthy number of state of art planes. 100 odd MKI's will not do the trick however 150-200 MKI's complemented with 126-200 F-18SH will surely do, no???

#5. INDO - US Relations

Boost of course, but by the ammount of restrictions we clearly will be more dependent on a foreign nation than before.

No doubt about it....However looking at our potential enemies i.e. China or Pak we would be pretty much sanctions free...Having said it we should ensure that we don't compromise on TOT a lot....This deal should be pretty much last deal for 4.5 generation fighter...It is High time we should follow China and start churning out our own fighters....In short whatever we choose it should and should complement our home grown technologies to churn out state of art fighter planes....

#6. INDIA - Russa, France and EU Relations.

Very difficult! The more influence Russia loses in India, the more interesting will it be to search for other partners, so closer relations to China and even more deals with Pakistan are possible.
Anything the EU can't sale to us, they can offer at least to Pakistan and even the possibility of Rafale techs in PAF will be a big problem for India, let alone if PAF would get 1, or 2 Rafale/EF squads.

Don't agree here....In other words all these problems have no relation with F-18 as MRCA choice....Mig-35 have very little chance in MRCA and we all know about it....India is a big market for defence equipments and we have a long list to keep all parties interested. Moreover we have time-tested relations with Russia which cannot alter by one deal....As far as rafael tech goes in Pak hands, then rest assured that will not happen unless and until you see a order of similar magnitude which in current economic woes is highly unlikely for PAF.....Moreover there is always a danger of tech getting leaked to China.....Regarding PAF going after Rafael of Typhoon or similar birds then they always had the choice, its the money which is a problem for them....In short if we go for Rafael then they can go for Typhoon and vice-versa...You cannot do much about it...IAF should just look at what is best for them...

 

[abaseen99]

Marcos its the Same....
Rafale is My Fav too ... But whats the point to discuss it... ...

I personally feel... This Defence Deal is Going to be a Real Pain for PAF and PLAAF !!!
More over the Defence Cooperation Between US and Pakistan will be surely Affected.

Its Like Hittng Two Birds with One Stone.

sirjee ye minimum 5years and max 7years ya os se b ziada time layga our os waqat ye engie retire howa hoga aap k saat dhoka howa ha

 

[kingdurgaking]

sirjee ye minimum 5years and max 7years ya os se b ziada time layga our os waqat ye engie retire howa hoga aap k saat dhoka howa ha

Thats why sirjee we are dealing with Russia...which is bigger than MMRCA you know ... Sukhoiiiiiii (30 and PAK FA)... when MMRCA is sanctioned Sukhoii dealings will be doubled immediately..

If PAF had dealt with other source like us... American birds would have been a least bothersome for you.. I guess PAF is doing this perfectly.. with china

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Why would we buy an old model fighter which is inferior to mki in all areas except radar. And for radar tot is very limited too.We can't add our weapons in the plane,can't modify it, bring it for inspection when they order..this is the worst thing which can happen to our air force.

 

[prototype]

1. IAF vs PAF,IAF vs PLAAF

PAF was never in question,it deos not enjoy any kind of seuperiority over India even before MRCA,PLAAF will continue to have numerical superiority over as,we already have better platform then then in the form of MKI,Mig-29 and Mirage 2000 mk-2 and now F/A-18,but as the Soveit strategy put it down,overwhelm quality with quantity,same with China

2.Edge over Pakistan

we always had it

3.The relation's,India,U.S and Pakistan

well we cant say that Pakistan will receive f-18 in the future as we r receiving it,Pakistan was already offered blk-52 and they offered a much better to us,this may b the reverse in case of Pakistan ,a beat down edition of F/A-18,everything for U.S is money which matter's,but that to look's narrow given Pakistan's condition now,but they will b definitely going the Chinese way once this plane comes to our inventory

4.Asian power projection

we will b one of the most versatile and dominant air force of Asia with a wide ranging technologically advanced platform but will not say we will the most dominant,Plaaf is just present at the another corner

5.INDO - US Relations

we r already enjoying a good relation even before this deal which will only get strong

6.INDIA - Russa, France and EU Relations.

MMRCA is just the tip of iceberg,there is a lot more for everyone to satisfy

 

[BlackenTheSky]

Benny....


The Fact is With Russian PAK FA Joining in 2020 and US' Hornets in 2014 ... It will be IAF and IAF all the Way in ASIAN Skies !!!!

Mate, beware of our territory or these all IAF Aircrafts willl be on ground

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Mate, beware of our territory or these all IAF Aircrafts willl be on ground

I wish we can test this

 

[sancho]

Well i think we need to go a little deeper then that....F-18 will definitely put a seal on more F-16's for Pak, no??? I am expecting atleast this much from Babus to put up...

...My perception is different on this issue....The way i am looking at it, if this deal go through it will put a lid on any more F-16's or F-18's to Pak...

First of all, I meant that PAF could buy way more J10Bs with the same amount of money they pay for US/western fighters.
Secondly you have to keep in mind the difference between Pakistan and India for the US. At the moment Pakistan is the closest alley for the US in the war on terror. Without the help of their military, the US will never be able to end this fight, so they are dependent on them. In this situation we can give them MMRCA and buy C17s, Apache, Chinooks..., but there is not a lil chance to block any sale to Pakistan. All we can do is pressuring them to not sell key weapon system that clearly are focused on India, like cruise missiles for example.
Even Russia, our closest alley is selling engines and stuff to Pakistan, so we should really get over the idea that we could stop anybody from doing the same, only because we buy some arms too. The only chance to do it, is to have a say, or be involved by a partnership / co-development and that is something that only the Russians, or Europeans can offer us.
For example, teaming up with EF consortium, or if possible with Dassault on Rafale, would give us a real chance to block such deals and that's what I understand to go beyond a buyer seller relationship.

We must keep in mind that even if you are in defensive mode you need to carry out missions inside Enemy Territory....With such a huge numerical difference you need a healthy number of state of art planes. 100 odd MKI's will not do the trick however 150-200 MKI's complemented with 126-200 F-18SH will surely do, no???

But 150 - 200 MKI complemented with any MMRCA will be a boost right? It is not special for the F18SH and imo, with the Eurocanards we would have a bigger advantage over PLAAF than with the US fighters. The combination of the lowst RCS and METEOR missiles in BVR, as well as the supermanouverability of them in WVR gives us an edge in any situation right?

No doubt about it....However looking at our potential enemies i.e. China or Pak we would be pretty much sanctions free...Having said it we should ensure that we don't compromise on TOT a lot....This deal should be pretty much last deal for 4.5 generation fighter...It is High time we should follow China and start churning out our own fighters....In short whatever we choose it should and should complement our home grown technologies to churn out state of art fighter planes....

Imo the worst point are all these restrictions! No radar source codes means, we must inform the US first if we plan a strike in Pakistan (like it was planed after the mumbai attacks) and is that a good idea, if we know they are one of the closest alleys of Pakistan? Also how can we complement out techs with US, if they don't provide any critical techs and don't allow to team up in co-developments, or JV like the Russians and Europeans do.
I said it before, chosing the US means only reducing the dependence on Russia, by being dependent on the US. Some think it is a good idea to have good relations to both countries and I am not against that in general, but for me Indias independence must always come in first place!

Don't agree here....In other words all these problems have no relation with F-18 as MRCA choice....Mig-35 have very little chance in MRCA and we all know about it....India is a big market for defence equipments and we have a long list to keep all parties interested. Moreover we have time-tested relations with Russia which cannot alter by one deal....As far as rafael tech goes in Pak hands, then rest assured that will not happen unless and until you see a order of similar magnitude which in current economic woes is highly unlikely for PAF.....Moreover there is always a danger of tech getting leaked to China.....Regarding PAF going after Rafael of Typhoon or similar birds then they always had the choice, its the money which is a problem for them....In short if we go for Rafael then they can go for Typhoon and vice-versa...You cannot do much about it...IAF should just look at what is best for them...

It is not only MMRCA where the Russians loose, IL 78 tanker lost, Mi 28 helicopters are very unlikely, same goes for Mi 26 that will loose to Chinooks, Kamov helicopters seems to loose over Eurocopter LUHs...
Except of already availabe types like Su 30, Mig 29 and Mi 17, we are not really buying new Russian arms right (Pak Fa / FGFA and MRTA are co-developments)? So if Russia can't sell things to their number 1 customer, where will they go? No matter how deep our relation are, they have to think about their economy too and especially if we get closer and closer to the US, they will start change their minds.

Regarding France, like any other country they want to sell their arms and techs too and by the fact that they are not dependent on the US, they will offer these things to Pakistan too (Mirage 2000 techs for JF 17 for example). But the more we co-develop with them, the more we can infuence such deals as a partner, not only as a buyer.

 

[blaster]

Mate, beware of our territory or these all IAF Aircrafts willl be on ground

im confused..which territory are u talking..?Kuwait..
u also have airforce....?
can u give some info about it..
oh r u talking about 39 F/A-18 C/D..
But sorry,the F/A-18 in Competition is F/A-18 E/F or F/A-18IN with Raytheon's APG-79 AESA and 126 aircrafts..now think about it...mate
And ur territory is also Included..

 

[dbc]

But 150 - 200 MKI complemented with any MMRCA will be a boost right? It is not special for the F18SH and imo, with the Eurocanards we would have a bigger advantage over PLAAF than with the US fighters. The combination of the lowst RCS and METEOR missiles in BVR, as well as the supermanouverability of them in WVR gives us an edge in any situation right?

..like what? Still peddling the Ra-fail? Why is UAE a faithful French customer suddenly disinterested in the Ra-fail? Why have they turned their noses at the Ra-fail as if its made from smelly camembert?
Especially when the French were so generous, offering to buy UAE Mirages and investing millions in Al Dhafra? Politics? perhaps, but the UAE Ra-fail deal was a one horse race a sure win for the Ra-fail and a deliberate step by the Emirati's to mitigate the risk of US arms sanctions by diversifying arms suppliers. Sure the AESA radar wasn't able to track moving ground targets and didn't have the range or resolution of the Desert Falcon- big deal!! They can use the OSF to watch the target and wait for the target to stop! They will run out of fuel or someone will have to pee eventually!

It makes me so mad to think they don't understand how to use hi tech weapons.And why do they need more thrust? The French are happy with the M/88 - what is the UAE AF going to do with more thrust? Make their camels deaf by breaking the sound barrier at low altitude - they can use their damned desert falcons for such trivialities.

And so what if the man machine interface requires more than 100 hours for their pilots to figure out how to navigate between gauges and flight instruments - its easy, one middle finger click, two index finger click three thumb flicks and viola the fuel gauge - it isn't rocket science - is it?!!

Sure you can be old fashioned and insist on dedicated gauges but thats so..so.. yesterday.. its more interesting to bury important gauges deep inside menus and sub menus. So much more fun for the pilot ..to search for these menu options while pulling 9G's in combat....right? But if its such a big deal they should pay to fast track D V I - Direct Voice Input development and then pay a little extra to recognize some quirks of Arab English speakers.

An Arab client once took me to lunch in his new luxury car and on our way to the restaurant he tried to impress me by issuing voice instruction to his car to self park. He pressed a button and said "bark" - the car apologized and asked him to repeat the voice command. Embarrassed he explained there was a technical problem and he'd take the car back to the dealer. Fine, I'm sure clever French engineers can figure out a smart way to substitute "B" with "P" and arabize the D V I. Or, if that is too 'expensive' they can easily hire some more Pakistani pilots and teach them French.

No radar source codes means, we must inform the US first if we plan a strike in Pakistan (like it was planed after the mumbai attacks).

This is so true, our pilots are excellent ADA programmers. How else are the able to provide close air support for our ground troops? Targets of opportunity no problem, our pilots can reprogram our radars in a jiffy! Check in and check out of the source code from the secure source code repository control takes a few seconds - but we're working on improving it.

 

[blaster]

..like what? Still peddling the Ra-fail? Why is UAE a faithful French customer suddenly disinterested in the Ra-fail? Why have they turned their noses at the Ra-fail as if its made from smelly camembert?
Especially when the French were so generous, offering to buy UAE Mirages and investing millions in Al Dhafra? Politics? perhaps, but the UAE Ra-fail deal was a one horse race a sure win for the Ra-fail and a deliberate step by the Emirati's to mitigate the risk of US arms sanctions by diversifying arms suppliers. Sure the AESA radar wasn't able to track moving ground targets and didn't have the range or resolution of the Desert Falcon- big deal!! They can use the OSF to watch the target and wait for the target to stop! They will run out of fuel or someone will have to pee eventually!

It makes me so mad to think they don't understand how to use hi tech weapons.And why do they need more thrust? The French are happy with the M/88 - what is the UAE AF going to do with more thrust? Make their camels deaf by breaking the sound barrier at low altitude - they can use their damned desert falcons for such trivialities.

And so what if the man machine interface requires more than 100 hours for their pilots to figure out how to navigate between gauges and flight instruments - its easy, one middle finger click, two index finger click three thumb flicks and viola the fuel gauge - it isn't rocket science - is it?!!

Sure you can be old fashioned and insist on dedicated gauges but thats so..so.. yesterday.. its more interesting to bury important gauges deep inside menus and sub menus. So much more fun for the pilot ..to search for these menu options while pulling 9G's in combat....right? But if its such a big deal they should pay to fast track D V I - Direct Voice Input development and then pay a little extra to recognize some quirks of Arab English speakers.

An Arab client once took me to lunch in his new luxury car and on our way to the restaurant he tried to impress me by issuing voice instruction to his car to self park. He pressed a button and said "bark" - the car apologized and asked him to repeat the voice command. Embarrassed he explained there was a technical problem and he'd take the car back to the dealer. Fine, I'm sure clever French engineers can figure out a smart way to substitute "B" with "P" and arabize the D V I. Or, if that is too 'expensive' they can easily hire some more Pakistani pilots and teach them French.



This is so true, our pilots are excellent ADA programmers. How else are the able to provide close air support for our ground troops? Targets of opportunity no problem, our pilots can reprogram our radars in a jiffy! Check in and check out of the source code from the secure source code repository control takes a few seconds - but we're working on improving it.

why are u calling it ra-fail

 

[dbc]

why are u calling it ra-fail

How else will you describe an endeavor that has failed to live up to expectations? A production run of 23 years without a single export customer is an epic fail. Politics and incompetent marketing is often offered as a convenient excuse - but why is this not valid for the immensely successful Mirage program?

 

[kingdurgaking]

..like what? Still peddling the Ra-fail? Why is UAE a faithful French customer suddenly disinterested in the Ra-fail? Why have they turned their noses at the Ra-fail as if its made from smelly camembert?
Especially when the French were so generous, offering to buy UAE Mirages and investing millions in Al Dhafra? Politics? perhaps, but the UAE Ra-fail deal was a one horse race a sure win for the Ra-fail and a deliberate step by the Emirati's to mitigate the risk of US arms sanctions by diversifying arms suppliers. Sure the AESA radar wasn't able to track moving ground targets and didn't have the range or resolution of the Desert Falcon- big deal!! They can use the OSF to watch the target and wait for the target to stop! They will run out of fuel or someone will have to pee eventually!

It makes me so mad to think they don't understand how to use hi tech weapons.And why do they need more thrust? The French are happy with the M/88 - what is the UAE AF going to do with more thrust? Make their camels deaf by breaking the sound barrier at low altitude - they can use their damned desert falcons for such trivialities.

And so what if the man machine interface requires more than 100 hours for their pilots to figure out how to navigate between gauges and flight instruments - its easy, one middle finger click, two index finger click three thumb flicks and viola the fuel gauge - it isn't rocket science - is it?!!

Sure you can be old fashioned and insist on dedicated gauges but thats so..so.. yesterday.. its more interesting to bury important gauges deep inside menus and sub menus. So much more fun for the pilot ..to search for these menu options while pulling 9G's in combat....right? But if its such a big deal they should pay to fast track D V I - Direct Voice Input development and then pay a little extra to recognize some quirks of Arab English speakers.

An Arab client once took me to lunch in his new luxury car and on our way to the restaurant he tried to impress me by issuing voice instruction to his car to self park. He pressed a button and said "bark" - the car apologized and asked him to repeat the voice command. Embarrassed he explained there was a technical problem and he'd take the car back to the dealer. Fine, I'm sure clever French engineers can figure out a smart way to substitute "B" with "P" and arabize the D V I. Or, if that is too 'expensive' they can easily hire some more Pakistani pilots and teach them French.



This is so true, our pilots are excellent ADA programmers. How else are the able to provide close air support for our ground troops? Targets of opportunity no problem, our pilots can reprogram our radars in a jiffy! Check in and check out of the source code from the secure source code repository control takes a few seconds - but we're working on improving it.

I am not sure whether you read the news article why UAE sent RFI for F-18 which went as a blow for France... there expectations on Rafael was so high... they wanted AWACS features + lot of others which will make Rafael altogether a new bird instead of calling them as block series.. and UAE where not ready to spend so much of money as France quoted.. secondly they already have F16 deployed so they want to evaluate of F18 as it contain some of the features they wanted... either way US provides best hardware on AESA as of now.... we have to wait and see what happens whether Rafael becomes Ra fail or Rafael is Rafael to UAE airforce

 

[Luftwaffe]

f/a-18 sh winning mmrca is hardly an impact, on the other hand with the Chinese production line of derivatives localized J-11(SU-30 variants) and J-15 and J-10B balances everything alone the numbers would be higher then 126 pretty much neutralize mmrca.

It could be an impact from an angle as the technology is well tested and superior but then again J-10B and the number increase up to the end of the decade 2020 could play its part in balancing things up to a certain point thus again the cycle continues..