If Pakistan were to Vanish tomorrow how would it be ranked among the muslim empires of this region and middle east?

[Imran Khan]

kisi ne pakistan ko touch bhi kiya to

 

[Rusty2]

I think the title is too emotional for a rational analysis. If you want to discuss the issues dispassionately, make it sound neutral like Why some nations fail?

I think in Pakistan's case. though no one doubts Two nation theory as a general theory of Islamic nations, it turned out to be insufficiently cohesive to create a new successful nation. However, the relative success of Bangladesh proves other cultural factors can exercise the cohesion needed to create a successful nation (Language in case of Bangladesh?)

More importantly, the general question is, a large number of Muslim nations that are not oil exporting are in various stages of dysfunction. That should be the basis of analysis. What are the cultural factors that prevent, say, industries coming up in Muslim societies, why is there no excellence in education? Why is free speech and freedom generally suppressed, these are the issues. Because of these "infrastructure" issues, good governments have not developed in most Muslim nations.

But Pakistan can get inspiration by looking at Bangladesh, Indonesia and Malaysia. They all seem to be successful though they all have problems that any large nation will have. It is particularly instructive how Malaysia has developed with a heterogenous population with a large Muslim population. Indonesia is also an impressive story - probably among the most successful non-oil Muslim nation.

You have hit the nail on the head.
The reason Muslims are in such form of dysfunction is that we are still clinging to a pre-industrial mindset in a post industrial age.
The best comparison I can make is comparing farming societies with hunter gatherer societies. No hunter gather society, today, have archived anything close to what farming societies have achieved. Similarly, no pre-industrial society has achieved anything close to what industrial societies have achieved.

So why can't we industrialize?
Well, to industrialize you need to spend your energy on industrial processes, research and development, etc.
What Muslims societies do instead is invest that same energy on policing who is a Muslim, forcing people to their version of Islam, and just an overall obsession with religion.
We all have the same 24 hours in the day, industrial societies spend that 24 hours doing productive things that objectively make the world materially better, while we waste it on religious pursuits that ultimately helps no one.
Now this is not to say you can't be Muslim as you want to be, no one cares how may times you pray, the problem comes when this is the obsession of a society as a whole.

 

[Zhukov]

What empire?
Pakistan is a republic Not some family ruled Dynasty. For the first time we are free and independent. (We were either under influence pf the Eastern Indian Empires or Western Persian and central asian Empires).
Stop finding your ancestors in those eastern or western influences and make a name of your own.

Lets assume For the sake of this Thread that something happens that unfortunately breaks Pakistan. Pakistan is too insignificant on world stage to be remembered in any significant way other then history classes.
Nobody cares about Yugoslavia , Union of South and South west Africa, United Sudan, Chezkoslovakia etc. Why would Pakistan be any different.
But i doubt as long as the level of toxicity remains in our eastern neighbor, We will ever prefer anything over a united Pakistan. There youth is on whole new level.
High on the laughable narrative that there was some great Hindu Power in ancient times that was tarnished by Muslim invaders and Pakistan is the last flickering flame of that great evil
We dont need to worry about Disunited Pakistan as long as these sanghis are there to give us the boogyman to unite against.

 

[langda khan]

What empire?
Pakistan is a republic Not some family ruled Dynasty. For the first time we are free and independent. (We were either under influence pf the Eastern Indian Empires or Western Persian and central asian Empires).
Stop finding your ancestors in those eastern or western influences and make a name of your own.

Lets assume For the sake of this Thread that something happens that unfortunately breaks Pakistan. Pakistan is too insignificant on world stage to be remembered in any significant way other then history classes.
Nobody cares about Yugoslavia , Union of South and South west Africa, United Sudan, Chezkoslovakia etc. Why would Pakistan be any different.
But i doubt as long as the level of toxicity remains in our eastern neighbor, We will ever prefer anything over a united Pakistan. There youth is on whole new level.
High on the laughable narrative that there was some great Hindu Power in ancient times that was tarnished by Muslim invaders and Pakistan is the last flickering flame of that great evil
We dont need to worry about Disunited Pakistan as long as these sanghis are there to give us the boogyman to unite against.

As long as you use India to unite you, India will continue to exert influence over you in all your walks of life. Ye patthar pe lakeer hai. 75 years. In 50 Bangladesh has long since moved past it's association with you. Save for the off and on clamor for restitution and apology which they know is never coming.

 

[epebble]

just an overall obsession with religion.

Karl Marx opined that Religion is the Opium of the masses. Translated to 21st Century, that should probably read Religion is the Fentanyl of the masses.

Nobody cares about Yugoslavia , Union of South and South west Africa, United Sudan, Chezkoslovakia etc.

I wonder if children of 21st century will have much interest in remembering or learning about USSR or it will go the way of Pharaoh's Egypt or Assyria/Babylonia/Mesopotamian empires.

 

[Novus ordu seclorum]

Im talking about gunpower empires, ottomans, Delhi Sultanate. We study these empires. Im wondering if future generations will study Pakistan in the same way.

Has Pakistan ever been capital of an empire? Pakistani identity comes across as parochial with divisive politics and no real history. Civilians look up to the military chief as the prime mediator and policy maker which politically empowers the military and the military takes advantage of it. This tradition is most likely deep-rooted, a legacy inherited from early Vedic period which had the Ruling caste establishment. The Indus valley civilization was not likely military ruled. When Mongols were steamrolling the world with scorched earth policy, the 'establishment' moved the capital from Lahore to Delhi for safety which turned into the empire known as Delhi Sultanate.

'The threat of Mongol invasions and political instability in Lahore caused future Sultans to regard Delhi as a safer capital for medieval Islamic India,[20] though Delhi had before been considered a forward base, while Lahore had been widely considered to be the centre of Islamic culture in the subcontinent.[20] Lahore came under progressively weaker central rule under Iltutmish's descendants in Delhi - to the point that governors in the city acted with great autonomy.[17] Under the rule of Kabir Khan Ayaz, Lahore was virtually independent from the Delhi Sultanate.[17] Lahore was sacked and ruined by the Mongol army in 1241.[21]'

History of Lahore - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Hellfire2006]

If Pakistan were to disappear tomorrow, it would be a good example of how a once promising country turned into an economic and socio political disaster thanks to it's army

 

[Baburfromsarmarkand]

Karl Marx opined that Religion is the Opium of the masses. Translated to 21st Century, that should probably read Religion is the Fentanyl of the masses.


I wonder if children of 21st century will have much interest in remembering or learning about USSR or it will go the way of Pharaoh's Egypt or Assyria/Babylonia/Mesopotamian empires.

There is no WW2 history without the USSR and the entire cold war which shaped the world and many nations fates also involved the USSR. Also the first man in space and the first satellite. Those are major human milestones that wont be forgotten.

Has Pakistan ever been capital of an empire? Pakistani identity comes across as parochial with divisive politics and no real history. Civilians look up to the military chief as the prime mediator and policy maker which politically empowers the military and the military takes advantage of it. This tradition is most likely deep-rooted, a legacy inherited from early Vedic period which had the Ruling caste establishment. The Indus valley civilization was not likely military ruled. When Mongols were steamrolling the world with scorched earth policy, the 'establishment' moved the capital from Lahore to Delhi for safety which turned into the empire known as Delhi Sultanate.

'The threat of Mongol invasions and political instability in Lahore caused future Sultans to regard Delhi as a safer capital for medieval Islamic India,[20] though Delhi had before been considered a forward base, while Lahore had been widely considered to be the centre of Islamic culture in the subcontinent.[20] Lahore came under progressively weaker central rule under Iltutmish's descendants in Delhi - to the point that governors in the city acted with great autonomy.[17] Under the rule of Kabir Khan Ayaz, Lahore was virtually independent from the Delhi Sultanate.[17] Lahore was sacked and ruined by the Mongol army in 1241.[21]'

History of Lahore - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Jahangir who is buried in Lahore shifted the capital here. He was Pakka Lahori.

 

[langda khan]

There is no WW2 history without the USSR and the entire cold war which shaped the world and many nations fates also involved the USSR. Also the first man in space and the first satellite. Those are major human milestones that wont be forgotten.

The USSR is to Russia what Akhand Bharat is to India. Both are inseparable. A continuum of a Mobius strip.

The USSR did exactly the same thing which in an earlier post I said families do in the real world when faced with tough times. They tighten the belt and downsize. Put food on the table. Wait it out.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Post colonial Nationhood is an inevitably temporary arrangement. India too is no exception

 

[Rusty2]

Karl Marx opined that Religion is the Opium of the masses. Translated to 21st Century, that should probably read Religion is the Fentanyl of the masses.


I wonder if children of 21st century will have much interest in remembering or learning about USSR or it will go the way of Pharaoh's Egypt or Assyria/Babylonia/Mesopotamian empires.

In most of these Muslim societies the elites are secular as hell, most could not care less about religion. But they use it as a tool to control the lower classes. If the lower classes are obsessed with religion, it gives them less time to actually revolt against them.
So yes, opiates of the masses.

The USSR is to Russia what Akhand Bharat is to India. Both are inseparable. A continuum of a Mobius strip.

The USSR did exactly the same thing which in an earlier post I said families do in the real world when faced with tough times. They tighten the belt and downsize. Put food on the table. Wait it out.

The only difference is that one was real and the other is a fever dream of a horde of incels.

 

[epebble]

There is no WW2 history without the USSR and the entire cold war which shaped the world and many nations fates also involved the USSR. Also the first man in space and the first satellite. Those are major human milestones that wont be forgotten.

V-2 Rockets, Jet aircraft, Autobahns, VW car, organic chemistry are all major human achievements that will be remembered without showing any regard to the regime that created them.

 

[Baburfromsarmarkand]

V-2 Rockets, Jet aircraft, Autobahns, VW car, organic chemistry are all major human achievements that will be remembered without showing any regard to the regime that created them.

the moment we think of a V2 Rocket or jet engine we are transorted back to the Nazi regime. Dont think the seperation is possible. People still associate Algebra with the arab golden age.

 

[jamahir]

Even with so much corruption, mismanagement, surrounded by hostile enemies, we are still standing and achieved alot on Military front.

We just need to sort out our social and economical problems, then no one can stop us, I am damn well sure of that.

About the underlined, since you haven't replied to my post# 30 reply to you on this topic on the second page, you are one of the Pakistanis who will not allow Pakistan to sort out your political, social and socio-economic problems.

Hindutva is for Indians only. Are you Indian?

I am from India and I don't want Hindutva. Neither does any rational person in the world. Apple company of USA became the first Western company to make internal laws against Hindu caste system this August because Hindutva filth in USA's companies was flooding in from India and discriminating against the Dalits and Shudra workers from India. The casteist upper caste Hindus were forming groups ( typical of Hindutvadis to form lynch mobs ) and prevented the Dalits and Shudras from progressing and having a peaceful time during the office hours to the extent that these lower caste workers had to keep their clan names hidden lest the upper castes identify them as Dalits and Shudras and oppress them even while the Hindutvadis were immigrants to USA themselves. And this happened in Google :

Just a few months ago in June, Google, whose CEO Sundar Pichai has Indian roots, cancelled a talk on caste discrimination where Dalit rights activist Thenmozhi Soundararajan was supposed to give a presentation. The talk was organised by Google employee Tanuja Gupta.

After the news of the cancellation came out, a report noted that Google cancelled the talk because it was leading to rancour inside the company. In the following days, Tanuja was put under investigation allegedly for violating the company's code of conduct. Soon after, she left Google.

Recently, talking about the incident to the New Yorker, Tanuja said, "A number of e-mails got sent to my VP, to the head of HR, to our chief diversity officer, to our CEO directly, claiming that the talk was creating a hostile workplace, that people felt unsafe, that the speaker was not qualified to speak on the topic and several other allegations." She also claimed that in tech companies, including Google, discrimination based on caste was rife and that tech company needed to talk about it.

USA government should have deported Sundar Pichai for canceling this anti-discrimination talk and on top of that putting some stupid "investigation" and forcing the organizer to resign, all of which I am sure goes against some law in the American constitution.

So now we know why Google, Microsoft, IBM and Adobe haven't passed anti-Hindu-caste-system law in their companies - they have Hindutvadi CEOs :

Last year there was a conference organized in USA called Dismantling Global Hindutva which therefore got much hate from the bhagwas. The conference participants were progressives including Hindus. The known female participants got rape threats and everyone got death threats and the participating academics' classrooms disrupted by the Hindutvadis - in USA ! Ultimately the conference was organized online and there used to be a website but it seems no longer visible but there is a Twitter account :

https://twitter.com/dghconference?lang=en

And there were reactions from prominent Hindutvadis. First Kapil Mishra who is a BJP leader in Delhi and was one of the Hindutvadis responsible for instigating the anti-Muslim violence of 2020 and for which he and his chums have not been arrested till now but it is progressives like the former student leader from JNU university in Delhi, Umar Khalid, who's in Tihar jail for the last two years. Have a listen to this short talk of Kapil, it is in Hindi and filled brazenly with violence, Hinduism's mythology and history denial :

And he says "You won't be able to bind the minds of the daughters of India in a hijab". Really ? Is Hindutvadi India a Communist or Socialist place really with the females being emancipated and having freedoms and rights ? Just a few days ago a Delhi Hindu girl, Aayushi, was honor killed by her Hindu father because she married a man of another Hindu caste - not even the prohibited Muslim but a Hindu of another caste - and she was free-minded. So her parents tortured her, shot her and packed her body in a suitcase and left it on a highway. The Hindutvadis never acknowledged this high atrocity as they were busy in the Aaftab-Shraddha murder case where the psycho Aaftab killed his live-in girlfriend Shraddha and cut her up into pieces and disposed them over days after keeping them in his fridge. Now the Hindutvadis rallied against this crime not because there was a murder or a murder of this sort - the Hindutvadis are psychos themselves - but they rallied because Aaftab is a Muslim and Shraddha was a Hindu and they declared this murder as a case of "Love Jihad" a supposed conspiracy where Muslim males are trained by mosques in the art of seducing Hindu females, given money and vehicles and then the Muslim males force the Hindu females to marry them and convert to Islam and when she refuses she is murdered. LOL, where is this mosque in India that teaches the art of seducing Hindu females because I want to enroll ? The Hindi news channels are full of the Shraddha murder case but the Hindu girl Aayushi honor killed by her Hindu father never found a mention. Contrary to the criminal Kapil Mishra's statement against hijab and all ( his attempt to introduce the "ebeel Muslim" and his expectation or actually demand about how Hindu females' minds be bound, Aayushi's mind did not want to be bound by Hindutva or "Indian" culture for that matter.

And then Aayushi's honor killing by her Hindu father got a "Love Jihad" twist started by a former female journalist of the notorious Hindutvadi news channel Sudarshan News run by that "Genocide those Muslims" chanter Suresh Chavhanke :

Aanchal Yadav, a former journalist of Sudarshan News, tweeted these images and wrote a caption in Hindi which reads, "पुलिस कितने आफताब पकड़ेगी हर जिले से,हर दिन #आफताब निकल रहा। रोज कभी सूटकेस तो कभी फ्रीज से बहनों का शव निकल रहा। अरे जाग जाओ अब बहुत हुआ, तुम्हें मिटाने के लिए हर गली में #अब्दुल घूम रहा। लोकेशन -मथुरा यमुना एक्सप्रेस #AftabAminPoonawala #MeraAbdulAisaNahiHai." [English Translation: How many Aaftab Police will catch from every district, everyday Aaftab is coming out. Every day either in a suitcase or in a fridge, our sisters' bodies are coming out. Hey, wake up enough is enough, #Abdul is roaming in every street to erase you. Location - Mathura Yamuna Express"]

Langda Khan, in the 'Iranian protests' thread you some days ago also declared that how nice it is that there is a mass campaign going on among Hindus against "Muslim crimes against Hindu females" and is called "Mera Abdul alag hai" ( My Abdul is different ). Why don't you start a mass campaign among Hindus called "Mera Ramesh alag hai" against honor killing by Hindu families ?

And below is the killer Hindu mother of Aayushi. She is wearing the veil on the head to hide her face. Now, when she had the thought of honor killing her daughter why didn't she hide her face for 40 days as penance for having that atrocious thought ?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1594659040281628678

Coming back to Kapil Mishra, the criminal idiot tweeted this in reaction to the Global Hindutva Conference :

https://twitter.com/x/status/1431580849363841028

And look at the date of his conference - 9/11. He's trying to enlist the support of Americans and Westerners against Muslims and Communists, but regular Westerners are beginning to get fed up of Hindutvadis and are calling them parasites who come and spoil the West:

- YouTube

ÐивÑÑÑÑÑ Ð²Ñдео, ÑлÑÑайÑе ÑлÑÐ±Ð»ÐµÐ½Ñ Ð¼ÑзикÑ, заванÑажÑйÑе оÑигÑналÑний конÑÐµÐ½Ñ Ñ Ð´ÑлÑÑÑÑÑ Ð²ÑÑм Ñим Ñз дÑÑзÑми, ÑÑм'ÑÑ Ð¹ ÑÑлим ÑвÑÑом на YouTube.

www.youtube.com

And now we come to charlatan and arch Hindutvadi "Sadhguru" Jaggi Vasudev whose voice I find most irritating and who has received a high national award from Modi government :

He calls non-Hindus as dogs. Ironically, it was the Hindutvadi BJP government of the late 1990s which passed a law prohibiting municipal corporations from trapping and eliminating street dogs which has led to India now having 60+ million just street dogs who live happily, fed by insane Hindutvadis even though these dogs kill humans and killed cats to the point of almost extinction. And dear "Sadhguru" alludes snarkily to Muslims in the above talk and also to Christians. "Sadhguru" is a funny man, going to Turkey and standing outside Rumi's mausoleum in Konya and claiming that Hindu temples covered Europe 4700 years ago and that the Delphi ruins complex in Greece was an ancient Hindu temple. To describe "Hindu temple" in code he uses the words "Consecrated spaces", this is his favorite. And to discover that a place was a Hindu temple he holds his rudraksha mala prayer beads over something and "they automatically move" and he says "Look, there is energy there. Something powerful sat here long long ago". The stupidu.

The USSR is to Russia what Akhand Bharat is to India. Both are inseparable. A continuum of a Mobius strip.

The USSR did exactly the same thing which in an earlier post I said families do in the real world when faced with tough times. They tighten the belt and downsize. Put food on the table. Wait it out.

Chup kar, bhagwa aatankwadi. Communist USSR that brought rights, rational thought, justice and simplifications into governance and inspired people across the world and you equate it to a mythical Hindutvadi concept called Akhand Bharat whose followers, past and current, are the most anti-human bunch in human history and therefore no one wants it ?

Pakistan don't necessarily needs to default or Fail ......

Just handover P_O_k including Gilgit Baltistan for 50 Billion $ to India and live peacefully.

And what do you intend after you get that region into India ?

Pakistan, as a state, failed to gain any significance or stature, at any level. Why would even it be mentioned in any future history book?

As an extension of that I wrote about South Asia in post# 30 as replies to two Pakistanis and they didn't reply back. That is the reason why Pakistan failed to gain any significance.

Pakistan, till date, for at least 75% of it's life, was ruled by Kanjars, Haraamis, Dallas, looters, plunderers, dacoits, of the first and foremost order. Had there been a Nobel Prize, for patent Haraam-zadagi; at least, 75% of those would have been bagged by de-facto Pakistani rulers, the latest awardee being Mir Bajwa. It is strange that this country still survives.

Sipra saheb, it is not suiting you to use a casteist, fake-moral, discriminatory and derisive word like Kanjars. Please leave it to the Areeshes and Mujahid Memons of PDF.

I wonder if children of 21st century will have much interest in remembering or learning about USSR or it will go the way of Pharaoh's Egypt or Assyria/Babylonia/Mesopotamian empires.

The USSR was one of the greatest experiments in human history that inspired so many in every part of the world - from Saudia to India to USA even and everything in between. Any rational person wants a society of justice; rights; rationality; simplifications; rejection of wrongs; rejection of artificial things; rejection of obsolete things; evolution, and these desires were given a platform by the USSR. USSR will forever be remembered and that is ensured by Communists / progressives like me. Here is Faiz Festival from Lahore, Pakistan in 2019 with the students chanting in Urdu including "When the air is filled with red flags the oppressors will accept defeat" and "Red, Asia will be Red". The people are students and teachers and the girl in the jacket is Arooj ( Urooj ) Aurangzeb who became famous as "Leather Jacket Girl" and the pretty hijab girl and the handsome bearded chap are her comrades :

These are students in India, most probably Delhi, from leftist student groups ( I see Students Federation of India and Democratic Students Federation written in short on the daflis ) aligned with the public Communist groups :

One of the girls chants against the Kathua case. Eight-year-old Muslim shepherd girl Asifa Bano in Kathua, Jammu, gangraped by Hindutvadis over days in a Hindu temple including by the priest, tortured, strangled to death and then her head smashed with a heavy stone. And then when these criminals were arrested the national ruling party BJP's Jammu unit carried out disgusting rallies claiming how these arrested people had families to be fed so donations must be collected.

There still are Communist movements everywhere, even in USA, and all aspire towards Global Communism. Malala Yousafzai who the Western governments try to co-opt into NATO agenda is also much inspired by Communism, or as she puts it, Socialism :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6rCUalzt9c

 

[Khan_patriot]

This is probably the most depressing thread I’ve read on pdf. Pakistan can be anything but defeatist. We have not and will never surrender. Pakistan Zindabad.