If Allah(SWT) sent the Mahdi next year, would you follow him?

[M. Sarmad]

Did you even open your Quran and started reading from that verse 43:57 to 61? this isn't the verse you guys spoke about...
It's the Contextual verse...

Read post# 192 again, carefully

 

[HannibalBarca]

Read post# 192 again, carefully

In Sunni Islam it's Jesus... Whatever you like it or not.

You as a Shia got something different, it's your problem... this exchange is like beating a dead horse...
This is going nowhere...

So for the fellow Sunnis... YES, The Quran talk about Jesus. Period.

 

[M. Sarmad]

In Sunni Islam it's Jesus... Whatever you like it or not.

You as a Shia got something different, it's your problem... this exchange is like beating a dead horse...
This is going nowhere...

So for the fellow Sunnis... YES, The Quran talk about Jesus. Period.

Wrong,

Qatadah, Al-Hasan al-Basri, and Sa’id ibn Jubayr are all Sunni authorities/classic commentators of the Holy Qur'an, neither are Muhammad Asad, Shabbir Ahmed or Dr. Omer Shia.

YES, The Quran talk about Jesus. Period.

No, the Holy Qur'an does not talk about the second coming of Jesus, not even a single categorical verse in that regard.

Only Hadith and Bible do.

 

[HannibalBarca]

Wrong,

Qatadah, Al-Hasan al-Basri, and Sa’id ibn Jubayr are all Sunni authorities/classic commentators of the Holy Qur'an, nor are Muhammad Asad, Shabbir Ahmed or Dr. Omer Shia.

Here my last chance concerning your "integrity".

Do you think that those 3 scholars ARE the Tafsiru by excellence in Sunni Islam?

Let's see if you are truthful.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Here my last chance concerning your "integrity".

Do you think that those 3 scholars ARE the Tafsiru by excellence in Sunni Islam?

Let's see if you are truthful.

You can continue to believe in whatever you want, that's none of my concerns.

I have only pointed out the fact that the Holy Qur'an does not mention the second coming of Jesus, not even a single categorical verse in that regard.

As for Tafsir/exegesis, whether Sunni or Shia, they are mostly based on Ahadith/traditions and other secondary sources anyway. I, for one, believe that interpreting the Qur'an through Qur'an itself is the best approach.

 

[HannibalBarca]

You can continue to believe in whatever you want, that's none of my concerns.

I have only pointed out the fact that the Holy Qur'an does not mention the second coming of Jesus, not even a single categorical verse in that regard.

As for Tafsir/exegesis, whether Sunni or Shia, they are mostly based on Ahadith/traditions and other secondary sources anyway. I, for one, believe that interpreting the Qur'an through Qur'an itself is the best approach.

Well... I was waiting for such answer...
But quite "paradoxal" from you to put ahead "Tafsir" of your choice and yet... "Believing" in interpreting the Qur'an through Qur'an...

But let's make it clearer for those who aren't familiar with such "Behavior"... You have a "narrative" "Doctrine" that you believe in... and you are "Willing" to transform the Quran/Hadith to suit it...

Do you know who does that? Christians... and few shia sects (That I would not name for the sake of maintaining a bit of integrity around here) and I will not go deeper into you and "that" relation... I could fuel a all new "type" of debate that isn't meant to be "debated" on PDF...

 

[M. Sarmad]

But let's make it clearer for those who aren't familiar with such "Behavior"... You have a "narrative" "Doctrine" that you believe in... and you are "Willing" to transform the Quran/Hadith to suit it...
..

Quite the contrary, It's you who has a 'narrative' 'doctrine' (based on hadith) that you believe in, and you are willing to transform the Qur'an to suit it.

As stated earlier, I have only pointed out the fact that the Holy Qur'an does not mention the second coming of Jesus.... there is no categorical verse in the Qur'an, not even a single one, mentioning the Second coming of Jesus

But you are trying to transform the Qur'an to make it compatible/fit with the Ahadith you believe are true.

Well... I was waiting for such answer...
But quite "paradoxal" from you to put ahead "Tafsir" of your choice and yet... "Believing" in interpreting the Qur'an through Qur'an...

That Tafsir was posted to let you guys know that the specific interpretation (of that verse) that you followed (and adhered to) was not the only one out there, and that differences of opinion have existed, even among the Sunni scholars, regarding the interpretation of 43:61 ......

It was not posted to put ahead Tafsir of my choice (sic)... My choice is interpreting the Qur'an through Qur'an... Hope that helps clear your confusion

 

[Placemat]

kinda political to be honest

It was always political and about conquest.

 

[I.R.A]

no doubt, the Holy Qur'an has concealed meanings and there may be more than one interpretations of some Quranic verses.

Concealed meanings? Abdullah. Quran is for humans and humanity ..... there is no reason for it to carry concealed meanings. Holy Quran is clear for anyone who wishes to and complicated for anyone who wishes to. I don't know why Muslims of today wish so much complication and don't use their brains.

@I.R.A

There seems to be some problem with tag notifications, I didn't get any notification for this tag.

Anyways my last few arguments on coming again of Issa Ibn e Mariam and an Imam who would be called Mahdi.

• There are no mentions in Quran of demoting Prophets, Messengers, and Prophet Messengers to an ordinary human following another Messenger, and I am sure the original Torah and Bible also don't mention anything like it. This thing in itself is highly disrespectful to say that a Messenger would be sent again not as a Messenger but an ordinary human following another Messenger's teachings and serve in leadership of a person called Mahdi (Making Mahdi superior to a Messenger who was sent centuries before him, the Messenger who led his people and stood victorious against his opponents) ........ it is against the Sunnah of ALLAH.

• This concept of coming back is borrowed one, an alien concept when it comes to Islam, it opens the doors for anyone who wishes to claim prophet hood and declare to be chosen one and create a new sect. Division .......... that is totally against the spirit of Islam. Aren't Muslims of today already divided enough.

• When the non believers used to ask Aqa Hazrat Muhammad about end of times, the response was always very clear .... only ALLAH Mighty knows, HE is the only one with knowledge of unseen.

• This is very idiotic of today's Christians to ask for coming back of a Messenger, in whom they already believe (we don't need to discuss the nature of belief) ..... Issa Ibn e Mariam came, accomplished his assigned role, and went back like all other humans and Messengers. It was the Christians who created confusion about his death, not Quran, not Hazrat Muhamad not Muslims (of that time). Quran made it clear to Muslims so they don't fall prey to what Christians believe.

• Mahdi and Issa Ibn e Mariam and how we have charted out all the future happenings and their roles ......... these same Muslims would shout Shirk if someone is reading astrology, palms, or Zodiac signs ........ but here in this case they have the roles and duties of two people already defined for them .... the future events how they would happen. Who is going to lead the prayers, where the prayers would be conducted, how it's going to be .......... Yahan Mustakbil ka btana Shirk nai hy. When Messenger Muhammad Peace be upon him said that I don't know of unseen, how can I an ordinary petty human dare indulge in opposite?

For fun's sake ........ put these coming of righteous Imam and Isa Ibn e Mariam in today's geopolitical scenario. Pakistanis should be worried because they are siding with a camp that Mahdi and Isa would be fighting. Obviously Christian camp is supposed to become Muslims after witnessing Issa and the number of Jews in total is how much few millions ..... so? ...... Yes its more than half of Muslims themselves (specially the women, because somehow they would be dancing), Indian Hindus, and Chinese Atheists ..... they will be fighting against. So Pakistanio Christian Amreeka ur Bartania say nafrat karna choro aur Cheenio ki band bajao.

It was always political and about conquest.

It was always about freedom of humanity, free will and choice. Stop reading and spreading non sense.

 

[Placemat]

Concealed meanings? Abdullah. Quran is for humans and humanity ..... there is no reason for it to carry concealed meanings. Holy Quran is clear for anyone who wishes to and complicated for anyone who wishes to. I don't know why Muslims of today wish so much complication and don't use their brains.



There seems to be some problem with tag notifications, I didn't get any notification for this tag.

Anyways my last few arguments on coming again of Issa Ibn e Mariam and an Imam who would be called Mahdi.

• There are no mentions in Quran of demoting Prophets, Messengers, and Prophet Messengers to an ordinary human following another Messenger, and I am sure the original Torah and Bible also don't mention anything like it. This thing in itself is highly disrespectful to say that a Messenger would be sent again not as a Messenger but an ordinary human following another Messenger's teachings and serve in leadership of a person called Mahdi (Making Mahdi superior to a Messenger who was sent centuries before him, the Messenger who led his people and stood victorious against his opponents) ........ it is against the Sunnah of ALLAH.

• This concept of coming back is borrowed one, an alien concept when it comes to Islam, it opens the doors for anyone who wishes to claim prophet hood and declare to be chosen one and create a new sect. Division .......... that is totally against the spirit of Islam. Aren't Muslims of today already divided enough.

• When the non believers used to ask Aqa Hazrat Muhammad about end of times, the response was always very clear .... only ALLAH Mighty knows, HE is the only one with knowledge of unseen.

• This is very idiotic of today's Christians to ask for coming back of a Messenger, in whom they already believe (we don't need to discuss the nature of belief) ..... Issa Ibn e Mariam came, accomplished his assigned role, and went back like all other humans and Messengers. It was the Christians who created confusion about his death, not Quran, not Hazrat Muhamad not Muslims (of that time). Quran made it clear to Muslims so they don't fall prey to what Christians believe.

• Mahdi and Issa Ibn e Mariam and how we have charted out all the future happenings and their roles ......... these same Muslims would shout Shirk if someone is reading astrology, palms, or Zodiac signs ........ but here in this case they have the roles and duties of two people already defined for them .... the future events how they would happen. Who is going to lead the prayers, where they prayers would be conducted, how it's going to be .......... Yahan Mustakbil ka btana Shirk nai hy. When Messenger Muhammad Peace be upon him said that I don't know of unseen, how can I an ordinary petty human dare indulge in opposite?

For fun's sake ........ put these coming of righteous Imam and Isa Ibn e Mariam in today's geopolitical scenario. Pakistanis should be worried because they are siding with a camp that Mahdi and Isa would be fighting. Obviously Christian camp is supposed to become Muslims after witnessing Issa and the number of Jews in total is how much few millions ..... so? ...... Yes its more than half of Muslims themselves (specially the women, because somehow they would be dancing), Indian Hindus, and Chinese Atheists ..... they will be fighting against. So Pakistanio Christian Amreeka ur Bartania say nafrat karna choro aur Cheenio ki band bajao.



It was always about freedom of humanity, free will and choice. Stop reading and spreading non sense.

What you just mentioned above to my post - freedom of humanity- is nothing but politics. If the above is religion then, AuSang, Mandela, Ho Chi minh, MLK, Gandhi, Lincoln, Martin Luther and thousands before these are all religious figures and prophets.

Let's not get personal - you believe in your stupidity and I in mine.

 

[I.R.A]

What you just mentioned above to my post - freedom of humanity- is nothing but politics.

It is the divine right .......... not politics. Politics sadly works the other way, enslaving people.

If the above is religion then, AuSang, Mandela, Ho Chi minh, MLK, Gandhi, Lincoln, Martin Luther and thousands before these are all religious figures and prophets.

Did they claim Prophet hood? You can call the person sitting next to you prophet, it doesn't matter much.

 

[Placemat]

It is the divine right .......... not politics. Politics sadly works the other way, enslaving people.



Did they claim Prophet hood? You can call the person sitting next to you prophet, it doesn't matter much.

You lost me on divine right , sorry didn't understand. But if I hear you right , you may be saying religion is a divine right. I think that's BS. There is no divine right for anything- e.g. eating other animals. It's just that humans can eat other animals and do so- but I digress.
True Prophets never claim themselves to be prophets. Those who do are charlatans however successful they maybe or followers they have.

 

[I.R.A]

You lost me on divine right , sorry didn't understand. But if I hear you right , you may be saying religion is a divine right. I think that's BS. There is no divine right for anything- e.g. eating other animals. It's just that humans can eat other animals and do so- but I digress.
True Prophets never claim themselves to be prophets. Those who do are charlatans however successful they maybe or followers they have.

Free will, free choice is a divine right of every human.

 

[Placemat]

Free will, free choice is a divine right of every human.

Unfortunately not in my humble opinion.. It is a hard fought right. People have given up their lives to live in a free and just society and are continuing to do so. Do not take free will and choice for granted.
There Is nothing called as divine right. You are born and you have to live and die. At a certain age ideally one should be free to choose but along the way compromises are made. I think the reality is that people have accepted to live a way of life and should be allowed to do so. There are societies which oppress classes and this struggle will always be on. My point is free will/free choice is not a given to indivuduals as long as humans live in an ordered society.

 

[I.R.A]

Unfortunately not in my humble opinion.. It is a hard fought right. People have given up their lives to live in a free and just society and are continuing to do so. Do not take free will and choice for granted.
There Is nothing called as divine right. You are born and you have to live and die. At a certain age ideally one should be free to choose but along the way compromises are made. I think the reality is that people have accepted to live a way of life and should be allowed to do so. There are societies which oppress classes and this struggle will always be on. My point is free will/free choice is not a given to indivuduals as long as humans live in an ordered society.

Then you don't understand one bit of Islam, which leads to rendering all your criticism of Islam biased, uncalled for and personal opinions. What you call political expansion and invasion of Islam ....... was actually based on fight for this divine right of humans against the oppression.

Your societies just didn't come into being from start, it was all result of divine intervention ..... the guidance. The evolution just didn't happen on its own it had a guiding force behind it. Leave a human child in wild today away from other humans, and he will grow feral .....