IDN TAKE: Is the 7.62x51mm Calibre Assault Rifle Suitable For Conventional War?

[MilSpec]

By the way @MilSpec sir, @GURU DUTT 's words got me thinking.I mean is it really possible to design a 7.62X51N chambered battle rifle with full auto mode with a good degree of stability during long bursts??!!How bout a piston arrangement something in the lines of the counterbalance recoil system of the AK 107, think such a configuration might work??You being an engineer and one who has a fair experience of shooting different cartridges out of different rifles, would be best suited to give a feedback.Thanks in advance.

Everything can be done, the only issue is how many of thos do you want in a system that you will bank your life on.

Full Auto can be fired fully stable, the issue really is not the rifle but the man behind the rifle which is a very poor rigid support. So, there can be brace systems developed to mitigate that, if the felt recoil from the gun is to be reduced, an numerous linkage methods can be used to reduce felt recoil, multiple roller mechanisms, the angles (wedge link) like the kriss vector.
My only issue is Recoil mitigation adds complexity, and reduces reliability of the system...

I fired Ak once in full auto at a range event, More I think about it, it is the best supression fire system, it's barrel flex inaccuracy is a bleesing in disguise. Ask the US forces, no one dares to raise their heads when the hear the kalashnikov on supression fire.

mazrat ke saath arz karoonga sirji im not ameer im just a paleed short dark evil baniya who works seven days a week with no holidays

ameer jeb se nahi dil se hote hain bhai.

 

[Omega007]

well sir

Sir??!!I'm just 22 yaar!!Please don't call me sir, I'm hardly worthy of it!!

im not a soldier or a scientist

Neither am I m8, I've just got some range time in the past, that's all.

but what i want is one weapon that does all the jobs or assault rifle+battle rifle+carine+medium range sniper rifle and a BullPup with 22inch baller and 7.62X51mm bullpup rifle can do all those jobs (one for all and all for one )

There you make the mistake!!There is no one size fits all here.

which in long run save time , money and load on soldier to carry diffrent types of ammo and weapons ... bhavnao ko samjho sirji

It wouldn't, trust me.

 

[MilSpec]

well sir im not a soldier or a scientist but what i want is one weapon that does all the jobs or assault rifle+battle rifle+carine+medium range sniper rifle and a BullPup with 22inch baller and 7.62X51mm bullpup rifle can do all those jobs (one for all and all for one )which in long run save time , money and load on soldier to carry diffrent types of ammo and weapons ... bhavnao ko samjho sirji

And that is what I am trying to tell from the start there is no One glove fits all.

The closest you can come to that is with modular systems, but that to has some reasonable modularity.

A squad should have all engagement solutions. Short range, long range, intermediate range etc. I don't think our expectation should be Jack of all trades and master of none swiss knife. Rather the right tool for the job at hand approach.

 

[Omega007]

Everything can be done, the only issue is how many of thos do you want in a system that you will bank your life on.

I was just asking if it was possible.By the way, the recoil system in AK 107 looks rather simple yet innovative, the only added moving part is an additional piston which moves forward.

Full Auto can be fired fully stable, the issue really is not the rifle but the man behind the rifle which is a very poor rigid support.

So true!!Long bipedal stature with high centre of gravity, not really much of a support!!

So, there can be brace systems developed to mitigate that, if the felt recoil from the gun is to be reduced, an numerous linkage methods can be used to reduce felt recoil, multiple roller mechanisms, the angles (wedge link) like the kriss vector.
My only issue is Recoil mitigation adds complexity, and reduces reliability of the system...

So true, especially the last part.

I fired Ak once in full auto at a range event, More I think about it, it is the best supression fire system, it's barrel flex inaccuracy is a bleesing in disguise. Ask the US forces, no one dares to raise their heads when the hear the kalashnikov on supression fire.

Again, can't really argue there.In short range, Ak in full auto with its wide spread can deal devastating damages.

ameer jeb se nahi dil se hote hain bhai.

Baat to fateh ki hai par yeha toh sirf pesa hi bolta hain.A66e logon ki koi kadar hi nahi.

And that is what I am trying to tell from the start there is no One glove fits all.

The closest you can come to that is with modular systems, but that to has some reasonable modularity.

A squad should have all engagement solutions. Short range, long range, intermediate range etc. I don't think our expectation should be Jack of all trades and master of none swiss knife. Rather the right tool for the job at hand approach.

I think the Grendel can be a solution here, with different barrel lengths for different roles of course.

 

[MilSpec]

I think the Grendel can be a solution here, with different barrel lengths for different roles of course.

Absolutely , grendel is the closest do it all caliber.

I have thought a few times of building 6.5 grendel AR, but the round is to damn expensive. Lets see may be someday, the prices might drop, or my salary would increase

p.s it took me while to figure out a66e, nice touch.

@Omega007 aight, jai akhon ghumate, will catch u later.

 

[GURU DUTT]

And that is what I am trying to tell from the start there is no One glove fits all.

The closest you can come to that is with modular systems, but that to has some reasonable modularity.

A squad should have all engagement solutions. Short range, long range, intermediate range etc. I don't think our expectation should be Jack of all trades and master of none swiss knife. Rather the right tool for the job at hand approach.

see sirji i used to watch a lot of documentroies regarding weapons and tactics in every war theater ever since hitler lainched his blitz style of war and trust me not much has changed ever since then and the most important things which make you win or loose are

1. your supply lines and there capability to diliver under most difficult situation

2.simplicity and easy maintainence and comminality in weapons

3.surprise element

now under the current senario what we need is a battle assault rifle that can do long range sniping and close quater battle without any modification and has great stopping power yet its easy to clean and low on mantainence now Tavor 21 fits in all of these requirements hence what i want MOD to think is we should put some effort to make a 7.62X51MM cal Bullpup Rifle with 20-22 inch barrel and which has same kind of piccatenni rails and charging handle and mag release system as a Tavor21 whose overall empty weight of 3-3.5 Kg and thats all we need

as for ease to use well Bullpup might be a little akward in the beggining to getting used too but its just a matter of time to get used to it and i guess Bullpup also is low on recoil and it is very easy to use for both left hand or right hand users

 

[Omega007]

Absolutely , grendel is the closest do it all caliber.

Yeah, I mean those little buggers remain supersonic beyond a fuckking kilometre for crying out loud!!I wonder why isn't the army giving this round a consideration instead of the 7.62X51N, makes no sense to me at least.

I have thought a few times of building 6.5 grendel AR, but the round is to damn expensive. Lets see may be someday, the prices might drop, or my salary would increase

All the best.

p.s it took me while to figure out a66e, nice touch.

I know, right??Took me a while too when I first saw it.

@Omega007 aight, jai akhon ghumate, will catch u later.

Yep, sleep tight, ttyl.

see sirji i used to watch a lot of documentroies regarding weapons and tactics in every war theater ever since hitler lainched his blitz style of war and trust me not much has changed ever since then and the most important things which make you win or loose are

1. your supply lines and there capability to diliver under most difficult situation

2.simplicity and easy maintainence and comminality in weapons

3.surprise element

now under the current senario what we need is a battle assault rifle that can do long range sniping and close quater battle without any modification and has great stopping power yet its easy to clean and low on mantainence now Tavor 21 fits in all of these requirements hence what i want MOD to think is we should put some effort to make a 7.62X51MM cal Bullpup Rifle with 20-22 inch barrel and which has same kind of piccatenni rails and charging handle and mag release system as a Tavor21 whose overall empty weight of 3-3.5 Kg and thats all we need

as for ease to use well Bullpup might be a little akward in the beggining to getting used too but its just a matter of time to get used to it and i guess Bullpup also is low on recoil and it is very easy to use for both left hand or right hand users

I just wonder why you are so stuck with the 7.62X51N round??If you want commonality, then why not convert all the existing small arms to 6.5 Grendel with 124 grain loads??!!It would cost less and also more importantly, the ammo as well as the rifles themselves would weigh significantly lesser compared to systems based on 7.62X51N!!
And besides, do you even know the weight difference between 5.56 and 7.62 NATO cartridges??Who's gonna carry all the extra load??

 

[GURU DUTT]

Yeah, I mean those little buggers remain supersonic beyond a fuckking kilometre for crying out loud!!I wonder why isn't the army giving this round a consideration instead of the 7.62X51N, makes no sense to me at least.

All the best.

I know, right??Took me a while too when I first saw it.

Yep, sleep tight, ttyl.



I just wonder why you are so stuck with the 7.62X51N round??If you want commonality, then why not convert all the existing small arms to 6.5 Grendel with 124 grain loads??!!It would cost less and also more importantly, the ammo as well as the rifles themselves would weigh significantly lesser compared to systems based on 7.62X51N!!
And besides, do you even know the weight difference between 5.56 and 7.62 NATO cartridges??Who's gonna carry all the extra load??

well i wonder why isnt MOD thinking about this Grendel ammo ? i guess we should have same ammo as standard that can be used in battle/assault rifle and machine gun ammo then be it 7.62 or 6.5

 

[MilSpec]

see sirji i used to watch a lot of documentroies regarding weapons and tactics in every war theater ever since hitler lainched his blitz style of war and trust me not much has changed ever since then and the most important things which make you win or loose are

1. your supply lines and there capability to diliver under most difficult situation

2.simplicity and easy maintainence and comminality in weapons

3.surprise element

now under the current senario what we need is a battle assault rifle that can do long range sniping and close quater battle without any modification and has great stopping power yet its easy to clean and low on mantainence now Tavor 21 fits in all of these requirements hence what i want MOD to think is we should put some effort to make a 7.62X51MM cal Bullpup Rifle with 20-22 inch barrel and which has same kind of piccatenni rails and charging handle and mag release system as a Tavor21 whose overall empty weight of 3-3.5 Kg and thats all we need

as for ease to use well Bullpup might be a little akward in the beggining to getting used too but its just a matter of time to get used to it and i guess Bullpup also is low on recoil and it is very easy to use for both left hand or right hand users

(No sir please)

I understand your sentiment, and I appreciate it to.

First tell me in meters what do you consider as long range, what is intermediate range and what is engagement range for close quarter.

 

[Eminent Mainstream Media]

Everything can be done, the only issue is how many of thos do you want in a system that you will bank your life on.

Full Auto can be fired fully stable, the issue really is not the rifle but the man behind the rifle which is a very poor rigid support. So, there can be brace systems developed to mitigate that, if the felt recoil from the gun is to be reduced, an numerous linkage methods can be used to reduce felt recoil, multiple roller mechanisms, the angles (wedge link) like the kriss vector.
My only issue is Recoil mitigation adds complexity, and reduces reliability of the system...

Why would you make an-auto for such a range (400-600m)- If we are talking suppressing fire then there is LMG for that isn't It-

Do you know about Soviet 9x39mm rounds used for CQBs- It is less noisy too other than being more lethal than standard 9x19mm-

 

[MilSpec]

Why would you make an-auto for such a range (400-600m)- If we are talking suppressing fire then there is LMG for that isn't It-

Do you know about Soviet 9x39mm rounds used for CQBs- It is less noisy too other than being more lethal than standard 9x19mm-

I did not say anything about range, the premise of my post is, full size battle rifles in full auto are not very practical, thus the intermediate cartridge. If you read through you will know what the context is.

 

[Omega007]

@MilSpec ,the regular grunts for most parts, are not even trained to fire their personal weapons in full auto, so I guess having or not having a full automatic mode is kinda moot, isn't it??

 

[MilSpec]

@MilSpec ,the regular grunts for most parts, are not even trained to fire their personal weapons in full auto, so I guess having or not having a full automatic mode is kinda moot, isn't it??

I am even more concerned with the especially the para-military and law enforcement lacking the basics of shouldering a rifle and cheek weld. I also have personally seen a city cop literally drop his revolver trying to un-holster it, dangling it by the lanyard and a CRPF jawan aiming a lee-enfield by holding it under his armpit.

 

[Omega007]

I am even more concerned with the especially the para-military and law enforcement lacking the basics of shouldering a rifle and cheek weld. I also have personally seen a city cop literally drop his revolver trying to un-holster it, dangling it by the lanyard and a CRPF jawan aiming a lee-enfield by holding it under his armpit.

 

[GURU DUTT]

(No sir please)

I understand your sentiment, and I appreciate it to.

First tell me in meters what do you consider as long range, what is intermediate range and what is engagement range for close quarter.

long range to me anything over 450meters with respect to battle/assault rifles and a 7.62X51mm Nato round shot from a 20 or 22Inch barrel will be highly accurate but still can reach and still penetrate kevlar armour from 450-600 meters