IDEAS EXPO 22 NEW SYSYEMS

[Inception-06]

Both will be used. Pakistani one already in service.

What’s the difference? Can they share the same an ammunitions what advantages does the M2 offer ?

 

[jhungary]

What’s the difference? Can they share the same an ammunitions what advantages does the M2 offer ?

I don' think they can share munition.

M2 uses a shorter round than Dushka, which mean a Dushka round would not be able to fit on a M2 and you can fit a .50BMG round in a Dshk, but it will just be 1 round and since it's too short to have the firing pin struck the back of the BMG round, it will simply stuck there and won't fire or cycle.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Having locals/awaam walking around IDEAS is not a gauge of success. What the exports look like is the key indicator. We keep on talking about "potential" to grow but nothing but slight incremental changes is what we see. $150M run-rate is despicably small if we are to compare others like Turkey that are churning out multi-billion dollar exports.

On the individual weapon replacement, the proof of the pudding is in the eating i.e. the army has to buy into BW-20 and variants. Not sure if a decision has been made. $800M - $1.2B to refit POF assembly lines for a new foreign weapon is not an excessively large amount but it goes to show how strapped the country is for funding.

Good to see new APFSDS rounds and local manufacture of .50 and 5.56mm rounds in Pakistan. There is a pretty good market globally, specially in the United States, for this ammunition.

Hopefully Aimpoint MOU will help with local development as well. Decent, incremental enhancements.

The general adage of most Pakistani industries (defence included) is that we primarily serve local demand first and we export the surplus.

In other words, very few across our stack are actually concerned about exports. Unfortunately, that disinterest in export carries over into how we run the organizations, lack of alignment with standards, and other inefficiencies.

You'll also notice that each of Turkey's big defence vendors -- be it state-owned (e.g., TAI) or private sector (Baykar) -- are managed by real industry experts. We're beating a tired horse here, but parachuting generals (or admirals, air marshals) into R&D-focused, or production-focused, etc entities hasn't worked. We only think so because we set our standards so low, but if we gauged it against what others do, then it has failed.

This then touches a bigger conversation of why we have so many inefficiencies. I know you bring up people not paying their taxes, which is fair, but that issue reflects a lot of big problems, i.e:

• The public's distrust of the governing system (they refuse to put their money on the line)
• Elite cronyism (resulting in benefits, breaks, etc, going to a civilian elite as per UNDP)
• Endemic corruption (which everyone who has worked in said system will attest to)
• A refusal to do things the right way if it doesn't align with self or institutional interests (e.g., HIT, PAC, etc, being run by military people)
• Mobsters masquerading as political parties
• Frauds masquerading as religious men
• Morons masquerading as secular men
• ...and so on.

 

[Bilal.]

What’s the difference? Can they share the same an ammunitions what advantages does the M2 offer ?

No both use different ammo. 12.7x108 Russian for our HMGs and 12.7x99 for M2.

 

[Suff Shikan]

I did post
Pictures of them above. See second image in the gun post I did above.

POF also introduced a machine gun of 5.56 caliber. I wonder how you missed it.
@Suff Shikan post pictures of them here.

 

[Zarvan]

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Thanks a lot. And this is one product from POF which actually looks good.

 

[Suff Shikan]

Thanks a lot. And this is one product from POF which actually looks good.

On the Gun it says "Made in Turkiye" but it also contains POF's Insignia

 

[sparten]

That is because 7.62x51 remains an extremely potent round despite all the experimentation with 5.56mm, the army is probably thanking its lucky stars that it did not plunge into this swap in the 90s and early 2000s as India did and then having to go back to the caliber with outright purchases of new 7.62x51 rifles. Modified G-3s with optics and modernized furniture is the right call and beyond that, I am actually all for a local design. A country with ordnance factories dating back 60 years should be able to come up with our own design and evolve.

Was this because of the 1990's era experience in UN peacekeeping when we operated extensively with countries with 5.56mm weapons and got to compare directly.

 

[sparten]

The general adage of most Pakistani industries (defence included) is that we primarily serve local demand first and we export the surplus.

A growing population in a democracy demand that.
Our population is 220 million. Turkeys is 85 million. And our people are demanding a higher standard of living. Not to say the Turks aren't but they are already at a high level so there is much greater exportable surplus available to them then there is to us. Our people demand more refrigerators and washing machines as they get richer, the Turks already have them.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Having locals/awaam walking around IDEAS is not a gauge of success. What the exports look like is the key indicator. We keep on talking about "potential" to grow but nothing but slight incremental changes is what we see. $150M run-rate is despicably small if we are to compare others like Turkey that are churning out multi-billion dollar exports.

On the individual weapon replacement, the proof of the pudding is in the eating i.e. the army has to buy into BW-20 and variants. Not sure if a decision has been made. $800M - $1.2B to refit POF assembly lines for a new foreign weapon is not an excessively large amount but it goes to show how strapped the country is for funding.

Good to see new APFSDS rounds and local manufacture of .50 and 5.56mm rounds in Pakistan. There is a pretty good market globally, specially in the United States, for this ammunition.

Hopefully Aimpoint MOU will help with local development as well. Decent, incremental enhancements.

What is your impression of the BW-20?

 

[Zarvan]

On the Gun it says "Made in Turkiye" but it also contains POF's Insignia

Now I get why it has so clean finishing.

 

[python-000]

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that looks quite impressive good job POF...

 

[Mrc]

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What a beautiful beast. This design must be perfected and inducted

 

[Sulman Badshah]

Cavlier Group MAverick 22 Assault Rifle and Sadad LSR

 

[Suff Shikan]

Cavlier Group MAverick 22 Assault Rifle and Sadad LSR

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