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ICJ hearing on Kulbhushan Jadhav case : News, Updates & Discussions

I MUST say ... Great "Logical/ rational / intelligent" reasoning on your part to justify your case of how ..

-if India looses the case it somehow won't hurt India and

-if we (Pak) loose it'll be an embarrassment... :D

Pakistan has raised three issues with ICJ for not accepting India's application :
1. That there is no urgency
2. India Pakistan has bilateral agreements to sort these matter out.
3. It is an internal security matter and Vienna convention and ICJ should not be involved.

If ICJ accepts any of the above grounds for rejecting India's petition then it will not implicate India or RaW for their alleged role in spreading terrorism in Pakistan.

Pakistan can expose India Internationally by fighting this case in ICJ and getting KbY convicted there.

While If India somehow gets ICJ decision in her favour then neither Pakistan can allow counsellor access to KbY nor can hang KbY without getting Internationally discredited.

:D
 
We are still waiting for a proof from you.

it is Pakistan who needs to show evidence not India. The whatever evidence Pakistan had was confession video, which was not permissible because it is as per law not allowed in EU, ICJ, or anywhere in the world if it is taken under military or police custody without the presence of lawyer.

Please update yourself with the correct information. Do not bring wrong information. Many are reading this forum to seek knowledge.
 
3. It is an internal security matter and Vienna convention and ICJ should not be involved.

It will be directly implicating India here since when u said that its a security matter and Indian terror spy is caught red handed than it just shuts the door for any one. And this will be most probably the situation from tomorrow on wards. India never accepted that their spy was involved and will not accept that in future as well just like Pakistan or any other country in case of spy arrest.

ICJ will most probably advise Pakistan govt to provide him counselor access and will ask for temporary stay order. But Pakistan may well immediately reject it in my opinion, which again will be very much in Pakistan's right. Why I said this, because the way the hearing took place without giving Pakistani side any time for preparation and announcing the verdict after just one hearing sounds strange to me.

it is Pakistan who needs to show evidence not India.

What evidence ? Since you yourself said it "many are seeking knowledge from this forum" than may I update your information that whole issue of this ICJ hearing is about counselor access NOT to prove commander KY as guilty or innocent as of now.
 
What evidence ? Since you yourself said it "many are seeking knowledge from this forum" than may I update your information that whole issue of this ICJ hearing is about counselor access NOT to prove commander KY as guilty or innocent as of now

This is the finding of ICJ on Pakistan's Military courts, years 2016! And this is why your doctored video clip were not permissible in the court. You have lost it!

https://www.icj.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Pakistan-military-courts-QA-Advocacy-2016-ENG.pdf

According to the military, at least 135 out of 144 (94 per cent) people convicted by military courts “admitted” to their involvement in terrorism during their trials.
Suspects tried by military courts remain in military custody at all times, even after the magistrate records their “confessions”. They also have no access to the outside world, further compounding their vulnerability not only to torture and ill treatment, but also to other forms of external pressure and coercion. And, reportedly, some suspects were secretly detained by military authorities as far back as 2010 and kept in internment centers in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) before they “admitted” to their crimes during their military trials.
In the absence of adequate safeguards and independent review mechanisms in military proceedings, this high “confession” rate in circumstances described above raises serious questions about their voluntariness, and even concerns about torture and other ill treatment.5
 
This is the finding of ICJ on Pakistan's Military courts, years 2016! And this is why your doctored video clip were not permissible in the court. You have lost it!

https://www.icj.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Pakistan-military-courts-QA-Advocacy-2016-ENG.pdf

According to the military, at least 135 out of 144 (94 per cent) people convicted by military courts “admitted” to their involvement in terrorism during their trials.
Suspects tried by military courts remain in military custody at all times, even after the magistrate records their “confessions”. They also have no access to the outside world, further compounding their vulnerability not only to torture and ill treatment, but also to other forms of external pressure and coercion. And, reportedly, some suspects were secretly detained by military authorities as far back as 2010 and kept in internment centers in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) before they “admitted” to their crimes during their military trials.
In the absence of adequate safeguards and independent review mechanisms in military proceedings, this high “confession” rate in circumstances described above raises serious questions about their voluntariness, and even concerns about torture and other ill treatment.5

What it has do to with May 15 hearing ? Did your hi-fi lawyer even uttered a single line that his client is innocent ...rather entire hearing show was to ask Pakistan for allowing consular access and put a temporary halt on commander Yadev execution. Now listen kid, even if ICJ agrees with Indian request, Pakistan still has legal right of saying no thanks to ICJ.

Most likely ICJ will ask Pakistan to allow consular access and Indians will celebrate it like they have won the case and commander KY will be release next day but to their disappointment Pakistan will immediately ask ICJ to move out by sighting national security and jurisdiction clauses. Not to forget that, Indians are so dumb and have been brainwashed by their media so much that they were claiming stay order verdict even before the hearing lol so it is really hard to convince any average Indian.
 
It will be directly implicating India here since when u said that its a security matter and Indian terror spy is caught red handed than it just shuts the door for any one. And this will be most probably the situation from tomorrow on wards. India never accepted that their spy was involved and will not accept that in future as well just like Pakistan or any other country in case of spy arrest.

ICJ will most probably advise Pakistan govt to provide him counselor access and will ask for temporary stay order. But Pakistan may well immediately reject it in my opinion, which again will be very much in Pakistan's right. Why I said this, because the way the hearing took place without giving Pakistani side any time for preparation and announcing the verdict after just one hearing sounds strange to me.

No it won't implicate India. What if India does the same to Col Habib, would that implicate Pakistan ?

In case ICJ direct Pakistan for counsellor access then it will be a catch-22 situation for Pakistan. India would take it as a win, cause any option that Pakistan might choose that would be in India's advantage. Be it giving counsellor access; be it not giving counsellor access; be it hanging KbY without counsellor access or (accidentally) killing KbY in custody.
 
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No it won't implicate India. What if India do the same to Col Habib, would that implicate Pakistan.

India can do what ever she wants to do with Rtd Col. Habib. Pakistan will bargain him with some other Indian spy in near by future, trust me. If not, we would had started back channel negotiations with India already which Modi govt wanted but to no avail.
 
Most likely ICJ will ask Pakistan to allow consular access and Indians will celebrate it like they have won the case and commander KY will be release next day but to their disappointment Pakistan will immediately ask ICJ to move out by sighting national security and jurisdiction clauses. Not to forget that, Indians are so dumb and have been brainwashed by their media so much that they were claiming stay order verdict even before the hearing lol so it is really hard to convince any average Indian.

we are aware that in any case KBY is not coming back, but we want death sentence to be terminated.
 
In case ICJ direct Pakistan for counsellor access then it will be a catch-22 situation for Pakistan. India would take it as a win, cause any option that Pakistan might choose that would be in India's advantage. Be it giving counsellor access; be it not giving counsellor access; be it hanging KbY without counsellor access or (accidentally) killing KbY in custody.

Again no, it is not. We are not afraid of India at first place. Yes India will celebrate like the way they were celebrating after Sushma Sawaraj tweet few days back :cuckoo:but the celebration will be dashed swiftly by Pakistani move of saying no thanks to ICJ. Now if you want to take it as a win for feel good factor than be my guest.

we are aware that in any case KBY is not coming back, but we want death sentence to be terminated.

That's us to decide and we have already decided.

Though on a personnel level, it is better to keep him alive in some miserable jail in Pakistan for rest of his life. In future, we might want him to be used as some bargain chip.
 
That's us to decide and we have already decided.

Though on a personnel level, it is better to keep him alive in some miserable jail in Pakistan for rest of his life. In future, we might want him to be used as some bargain chip.

India is just creating more oppurtunity for Pakistani regime to terminate this order, so that the local hujoom does not mind their decision. And take it as, pressure from international platform.
 
India can do what ever she wants to do with Rtd Col. Habib. Pakistan will bargain him with some other Indian spy in near by future, trust me. If not, we would had started back channel negotiations with India already which Modi govt wanted but to no avail.

If Modi can't do it then CAN Nawaz pull if off in future. Are you serious ??

Again no, it is not. We are not afraid of India at first place. Yes India will celebrate like the way they were celebrating after Sushma Sawaraj tweet few days back :cuckoo:but the celebration will be dashed swiftly by Pakistani move of saying no thanks to ICJ. Now if you want to take it as a win for feel good factor than be my guest.

For Indian politician KbY issue is just a scoring point. A favourable judgement is a win for Modi. Pakistan not complying with ICJ is a win for Indian diplomacy. Pakistan hanging KbY will further prove that Modi's tough stand against Pakistan is legitimate.

That's us to decide and we have already decided.

Though on a personnel level, it is better to keep him alive in some miserable jail in Pakistan for rest of his life. In future, we might want him to be used as some bargain chip.

Try selling this to you military court :azn:

Wouldn't they feel humiliated ?
 
ICJ to announce verdict on Jadhav case tomorrow
By AFP / Hasnaat Mailk
Published: May 17, 2017
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Kulbhushan Jadhav. VIDEO SCREENGRAB

THE HAGUE / ISLAMABAD: The International Court of Justice (ICJ) will rule Thursday on an urgent bid by India to stop Pakistan from carrying out a death sentence on its spy Kulbushan Jadhav.

In the hearing on Monday, lawyers for New Delhi had urged the UN court to halt Jadhav’s execution.

Jadhav was arrested in Balochistan last year, who later confessed to espionage and terror activities in Pakistan. He was convicted by a court martial and sentenced to death.

Pakistan, India face off at The Hague

The UN tribunal, based in The Hague, said in a statement it “will deliver its order on the request for the indication of provisional measures made by India in the Jadhav Case (India v. Pakistan), tomorrow on Thursday 18 May 2017”.


The president of the court, Ronny Abraham, will read out the decision at midday (1000 GMT).

India has denied Jadhav was a spy, and on Monday accused Pakistan of “egregious violations of the Vienna convention” by denying him access to legal counsel and consular visits, and refusing to reveal the charge sheet against him.

Pakistani representatives accused New Delhi of “political grandstanding” and told the court Jadhav “has confessed to having been sent by India to wage terror on the innocent civilians and infrastructure of Pakistan”.
 
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Pakistan's delegation waits for judges to enter the World Court in The Hague. —AP


The International Court of Justice (ICJ) on Monday heard the case brought to it by India pertaining to the sentencing of Indian spy Kulbhushan Jadhav, who was handed a death sentence by a Pakistani Field General Court Martial (FGCM) last month.

Ambassador Moazzam Ahmad Khan, Dr Muhammad Faisal and Syed Faraz Hussain were present at the Peace Palace as members of Pakistan's legal team.

Khawar Qureshi led Pakistan's arguments, while Asad Rahim Khan and Joseph Dyke were present on Pakistan's behalf for the proceedings in The Hague.

ICJ has no jurisdiction in the case
Presenting its arguments before the court, Pakistan maintained that the ICJ did not have jurisdiction to hear the Indian application, Radio Pakistan, the state-run broadcasting service, reported.

The arguments for Pakistan were presented by Dr Faisal to the court in The Hague, Netherlands, on Monday.

Pakistani representatives told the court that Jadhav “has confessed to having been sent by India to wage terror on the innocent civilians and infrastructure of Pakistan”.

Dr Faisal said that, according to the Vienna Convention, the court had no jurisdiction to hear such a case.

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India's delegation waits for judges to enter the World Court in The Hague. —AP


He further said the Indian spy was sentenced to death after fulfilling all necessary legal procedures and that he was also given legal counsel to defend the allegations against him.

Faisal also showed the court a picture of a passport which he said was found in Jadhav's possession bearing a completely different “and Muslim” name.

“India has been unable, or perhaps unwilling, to provide an explanation for this passport which is the most obvious indication of covert and illegal activity,” added Faisal.

Vienna Convention does not apply to a 'spy'
Lawyer Khawar Qureshi, also appearing for Pakistan, subsequently argued that the ICJ is not a criminal court and cannot decide such type of cases relating to national security.

He further appealed to the court to dismiss the Indian application, saying that "there is no agency".

The counsel for Pakistan also said that the provisions of the Vienna Convention do not apply to a "spy involved in terror activities".

Qureshi said that Jadhav “is a terrorist” and “India invoked the jurisdiction of this court improperly.”

“This court exists to ensure that states engage in peaceful resolution of disputes. This court does not exist for time-wasting and political grandstanding,” he maintained.

"India's allegation regarding the kidnapping of its spy is not true and he [Jadhav] was arrested by Pakistani forces from Balochistan," he maintained.

Earlier, the UN's judicial body had heard India's arguments in the first phase of the proceedings.

As the proceedings began, India had appealed to the UN's top court to order Pakistan to suspend its planned execution of Jadhav, saying his rights had been violated by Islamabad.

Harish Salve, leading the Indian legal team, had focused his arguments on Pakistan's denial of consular access to Jadhav as he presented India's case before the judicial body.

“The situation in which we find ourselves is grave and it is urgent,” Salve said. “India has made innumerable requests since March 2016 for consular access.”

The hearing focused on India's request for so-called “provisional measures” that can be granted at short notice to ensure a dispute between states does not deteriorate during full ICJ proceedings, which typically take several years.

Deepak Mittal, joint secretary of India's Ministry of External Affairs, told judges at the ICJ that Jadhav's death sentence was handed down following a "farcical" trial.

Jadhav was “an innocent Indian national, who, incarcerated in Pakistan for more than a year on concocted charges, deprived of his rights and protection accorded under the Vienna Convention, has been held incommunicado ... and faces imminent execution,” Mittal told the tribunal.

Mittal also claimed that Pakistan had failed to respond to all Indian demands for information about the case, snubbing requests for documents including the charge sheet.

After hearing arguments from both sides, the ICJ said it would deliver its order in a public setting on a date that will be communicated to both parties.

The court's president Ronny Abraham said the tribunal would publicly deliver its decision on whether to grant an emergency stay of execution “as soon as possible.”

Pakistan pursues Jadhav's case at the ICJ
After deliberation, Pakistan had decided last week to forcefully pursue the Jadhav case at the ICJ. Pakistan's arguments were to be focused on refuting all allegations levelled against it and also pointing out atrocities India was getting away with committing in India-held Kashmir, it was reported.

The hearing was conducted days after India filed an application with the UN's judicial body seeking the suspension of the Jadhav's death sentence.

In its application filed with the ICJ, India had accused Pakistan of violating the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, stating that Pakistan has repeatedly denied consular access to Jadhav.

India also alleged that "it was not informed of Jadhav’s detention until long after his arrest," and learned about the death sentence through the media.

Jadhav was arrested on March 3, 2016, through a counter-intelligence operation in Balochistan's Mashkel area for his involvement in espionage and sabotage activities against Pakistan. He was sentenced to death by a FGCM in April this year.

India had termed the death sentence awarded to Jadhav “an act of premeditated murder," while maintaining that Jadhav was a retired officer of the Indian Navy.

India has further claimed that Jadhav was kidnapped from Iran where he was involved in a business undertaking.
 
Pakistan media already worrying to lose and crying.

Indian media is confident for India victory.

that is a different, now
 
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